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Seeking Advice: Natural Fancy Vivid Pink verification/transport

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by Grateful4UrWisdom, Dec 28, 2018.

  1. Grateful4UrWisdom
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    by Grateful4UrWisdom » Dec 28, 2018
    I purchased an Argyle Natural Fancy Vivid Purplish Pink - Oval Brilliant .23 at a Vancouver convention, paying far too much, in 2008, with the agreement that they would find a buyer for it after its appreciation. I do have the GIA colored diamond ID and origin report and certification. Over the last 10 yrs, their story has continually changed about their system for finding buyers for my investment which have not come to pass. He is now wanting to send my GIA-certified and inscripted diamond from Vancouver to Los Angeles via his "3rd party independent verification lab" - CGL-GRS Canadian Gemlabs. I have asked to have it FedEx-ed (on my dime, of course) directly to my jeweler here in LA, a trusted gemologist, or to the GIA in Carlsbad for verification instead. He refuses to do so, insisting I use his co. He is also requiring a "statutory declaration witness by a lawyer or notary confirming the legal purchase of the diamond and declaring I am the sole owner" - which strikes me as odd.

    What could go wrong by having his guy at CGL-GRS Canadian Gemlabs do the verification, since the pink diamond is already GIA inscripted? I have a concern that he will try to pass off a different diamond, rather than the one I paid for through his friend's lab, but since it's GIA-inscripted, would this be possible? Any advice as to how to protect my purchase and insights into this situation would be so deeply appreciated. Thank you.
     
    


    


  2. Dancing Fire
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    by Dancing Fire » Dec 28, 2018
    why would you need another lab report when you already have a colored report from GIA ? :confused: GIA is the gold standard of lab reports for colored stones.

    Don't believe their BS story about finding a buyer for your stone. You paid way too much for the stone 10 yrs ago.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
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  3. kmoro
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    by kmoro » Dec 28, 2018
    Geez. This whole thing sounds shady. I’m not sure if I’m clear in what is going on.

    I’m guessing that in 2008 they sold you this diamond as an “investment” and they said they would find a buyer after it appreciates, and that “profit”’ is your return on the investment? And you thought that buying a diamond was a good investment decision for making money?

    If that’s the case, then I think you may have simply made a bad investment decision. After 10 years of inflation and the time value of money, any dollar amount of profit will probably have been eliminated, if you’re not actually in a loss position.

    I think you may have been scammed in two ways:
    1. A diamond is not a good investment
    2. The guy who sold you on the investment is shady.

    There is no reason to send the diamond to another lab.

    I think you should cut your losses and sell the stone yourself .. I don’t know what you paid or GIA report so who knows how much you could sell it for .... or keep it and enjoy it. Forget about scam guy; live and learn.

    Edit: when someone says “investment quality diamond” that still does not mean it’s a good investment - if your goal is to make money. Really, all it means is that the diamond is rare enough that it may still be worth something in many years time ... we’re talking about holding value at best, not a market competitive return on investment. You’re better off with a savings account to make money, imo.

    But ... this is just my two cents.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
  4. Bron357
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    by Bron357 » Dec 28, 2018
    Your Arygle pink diamond should come with its tender document. It’s over .20 carat and you purchased it after 2005. That number will be inscribed on the diamond girdle. You don’t pay “an arm, leg and kidney” for an Arygle pink and NOT get the certification guarantee. Yes, that’s what you should have as well as a GIA report.
    I’m a bit confused, where is your diamond?
    If you own it, you paid for it, you should have it in YOUR possession.
    Why on earth is this guy telling you need some other certification?
    I SMELL RAT!
    I’d be saying you send me MY certified Arygle pink diamond that I purchased IMMEDIATELY or my lawyers / police will be in contact next.
    In fact, I’d get in contact with my lawyer now, take down all paperwork to see exactly what arrangement you have entered into.
    My concern would be that they don’t physically have your diamond anymore, that someone else ? has it ? Maybe it’s like a stonky Pyramid scheme - all these diamond “investors” (of which you are one) but not enough diamond assets to go around.
    Having a GIA report is no worth anything if you don’t have the diamond as well.
     
    


    


  5. GliderPoss
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    by GliderPoss » Dec 28, 2018
    Take your pink diamond & run...away from that shady AF bloke! :naughty:

    Seriously if it’s Argyle - it’s already certified and you can legitimately sell it yourself other ways.
     
  6. OoohShiny
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    by OoohShiny » Dec 28, 2018
    I agree with Bron - do you even possess the diamond? Have you ever even seen it in person?

    How did you buy it? (face-to-face / over the phone / off a website?)

    Did you seek it out or did someone cold-call you and give you the hard sell?

    How much did you pay??

    Can you post a picture of the report you seem to have?

    Does the company have a live website we could look at?

    Have you searched online for the company / person / contact details, to see if anyone else has reported them for fraudulent pyramid 'investment' schemes or one of those scams where the goods apparently being bought were either never in the scammers' possession or never even existed? (I recall a case of the latter in the UK involving posh wine.)

    Does the Argyle mine(s) keep a record of buyers' details you could ask to check (if they send them to GIA themselves before the stones' initial sale?)?

    Everything about this says 'scam' to me, and they seem to be trying to string you along and get even more money out of you even now.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
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  7. bmfang
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    by bmfang » Dec 28, 2018
    I’m with the others on this. Argyle pinks come with plenty of verification post-2005. I’m very concerned that the guy you have been dealing with is scamming you.

    Totally agree with @Bron357 that you should be making contact with your legal representatives to see what recourse you have against that S.O.B. and make sure that you have actual possession of your Argyle pink. There are plenty of buyers for them given that supply from the Argyle mine is very quickly drying up.
     
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  8. denverappraiser
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    by denverappraiser » Dec 28, 2018
    I too am with the above in not understanding why he/you want to send this to LA in the first place? Is this for a sales presentation of some sort or is he returning it to you, presumably washing his hands of the deal? The request for paperwork documenting ownership may have to do with Canadian taxes if and when he needs to reimport it back into Canada or maybe something having to do with shipping assets out of the country without specific evidence of who owns them. Is he in bankruptcy or something like that? There's more to this story, and if you don't know what it is, you need to find out.
     
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  9. Grateful4UrWisdom
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    by Grateful4UrWisdom » Dec 28, 2018
    Hi Bron357,
    Thanks for your reply and advice. I really appreciate it.

    To clarify, my Natural Vivid Pink has always been in HIS possession and it still is now in Canada. I live in Los Angeles. Although I paid for it in 2008 and received a receipt with the GIA paperwork from his co., his system (scam?) was to keep possession of it in case a buyer showed up and was seeking my kind of diamond since he is a buyer/seller of natural coloured diamonds.

    I would just like to retain possession of the GIA-certified and inscripted diamond I paid. And I'm trying to figure out ways to attain what is my property. Again, he refused to have it sent, on my dime, to my jeweler here in Los Angeles or to GIA to verify it's the diamond I paid for.

    I also wonder whether he no longer physically has my diamond and is requiring me to go through his "3rd party independent lab for verification" in order to somehow clear himself of any wrongdoing before sending me who knows what. But I'm not sure how he would pull this off even if I did agree to his lab's verification process - esp since the lab seems legit - CGL-GRS Canadian Gemlabs.

    I have threatened him with legal action but he keeps sending me his attorney's mumbo-jumbo about this established process they have for returning diamonds via their 3rd party independent verification lab.

    hope that clarifies my pickle.
    Any further insights would be most welcome.
    Thank you again.
     
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  10. Grateful4UrWisdom
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    by Grateful4UrWisdom » Dec 28, 2018
    Hi Denver,
    Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it.
    To clarify as I did with Bron above, he is and has always been in possession of my Natural Vivid Pink diamond since my purchase of it in 2008. He is based in Vancouver and I live in Los Angeles. He told me that as a buyer/seller of natural coloured diamonds, he could find a buyer for my diamond after several yrs of appreciation, which is the reason he held possession of it. It's now been 10 yrs.
    Rather than have the diamond sent to my jeweler in Los Angeles or to GIA in Carlsbad for verification, he is insisting it go through a "3rd party independent verification lab" in Canada in order to ensure the diamond he is sending is the GIA-inscripted and certified diamond I paid for. This is where it feels fishy to me. It wouldn't surprise me if he's in bankrupcy but I don't know. I would just like the safe transport and possession of my diamond and am not sure how to proceed here. Any further insight would be most welcome. Thank you.
     
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  11. lovedogs
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    by lovedogs » Dec 28, 2018
    This entire thing screams scam to me. I'd call a lawyer.
     
  12. Dancing Fire
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    by Dancing Fire » Dec 28, 2018
    Hate to say it, but your money is gone with wind. He probably never had the diamond in his possession ever.
     
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  13. rockysalamander
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    by rockysalamander » Dec 28, 2018
    You could call Canadian authorities and see if they have any knowledge of this person or a scam like this.
     
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  14. smitcompton
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    by smitcompton » Dec 28, 2018
    Hi,

    I'm not sure here. What he is saying is that he will send this to his lab of choice to just verify that this is the diamond you purchased.. Then he will send it to you,. When it gets to LA, you can then verify at the GIA in Carlsburg to affirm this is your diamond. It doesn't sound that fraudulent to me. The certification that others have spoken about ought to come with the diamond when it is sent. Why do you think he is in bankruptcy. You called him, right?
    He is still in business. I would let him certify it with his lab-if this is a good Canadian Lab.
    Annette
     
  15. lovedogs
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    by lovedogs » Dec 28, 2018
    The issue is that OP has NEVER BEEN IN POSSESSION of the stone that he/she ourchased a decade ago. That makes zero sense. That combined with the story changing over time = scam to me, and makes me think the $$ is long gone
     
    


    


  16. smitcompton
    Ideal_Rock

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    by smitcompton » Dec 28, 2018
    Hi,
    No, that is not the issue Lovedogs. OP is now asking for the diamond to be sent to him as it was left with the original seller so it could be sold at a profit. No buyer has emerged with different excuses given . However if the orig.seller sends the diamond, why should he think our OP won't say he didn't get the diamond he purchased. That's why he wants to send it to a Canadian company. Its for his protection. This does not sound unreasonable to me. OP must then reverify when it gets to LA.

    I don't know whether this is a scam--It might not be.

    Annette
    If there is a legal question it will be in a Canadian Court. A Canadian Lab would be easier for this original seller to plead his case.
     
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  17. denverappraiser
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    by denverappraiser » Dec 28, 2018
    Use GIA. Don't you touch it, and don't get your jeweler involved until all questions related to the chain of custody are resolved (Is it the same stone GIA saw previously?). I see zero benefits to involving his 3rd party grader, and a lot of benefit to them staying out of it (for the same reason your jeweler should stay out). He would be the GIA client and at his request, GIA will return the stone to whatever address he asks. He has no risk here and, if you've agreed to pay the bill, no costs either. This would not an unusual transaction and it protects both of you.

    What happened to the original Argyle paperwork?

    Maybe you answered above and I missed it, but why does he want YOU to supply some sort of evidence of ownership? He's the seller. You've got a receipt, from him, and surely some sort of evidence of how you paid. You've got some sort of consignment agreement that's been in place for 10 years that surely says who the consignee is. What is going on where that isn't sufficient? Is someone contesting your ownership? This is the biggest red flag for me that something is out of the ordinary.

    By the way, FedEx insurance is a bit particular on high-value shipments, at least in the US. That may or may not be the best way to ship, no matter where you are going with it.
     
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  18. Matilda
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    by Matilda » Dec 28, 2018
    Oh dear this isn't good at all. Depending on how much you spent on the diamond it may or may not be worth it to fly to Vancouver and retrieve the stone in person.
    Could you ask him to send you a magnified photo of the diamond's inscription with the date of the photo being taken shown? Perhaps a video with the inscription being zoomed in on?
    I would get a lawyer immediately and gather all documents of communication with him over the last ten years.
     
  19. rockysalamander
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    by rockysalamander » Dec 28, 2018
    Does the seller have reason to question if you are the buyer he dealt with 10 years ago? Change of address, name, or obit that could be confusing?
     
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  20. Bron357
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    by Bron357 » Dec 28, 2018
    4BD09E7B-D955-402C-9032-EFD120EB6E6D.jpeg 8E1EA34C-753F-41EE-8327-B473199B6020.jpeg The issue regarding the Arygle paperwork is important. Is it even an Arygle pink diamond?
    An Arygle certified pink diamond is worth much much more than an non Arygle / uncertified pink diamond.
    Arygle is a “desirable value brand” like Cartier - A gold bangle manufactured and hallmarked as a Cartier only has $2,000 gold in it but sells for $14,000 new and even $7,000 used because of “the name”. The Brand matters.
    What paperwork / receipt do you have that defines your purchase as an Arygle Pink diamond? What is its Arygle serial number?
    An example of an Arygle pink diamond certificate is attached.
    You say you have a copy of the GIA report, if it is an Arygle pink that number will be noted on the GIA report under comments as per sample photo.
     
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  21. Karl_K
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    by Karl_K » Dec 28, 2018
    I would call the RCMP office in Vancouver explain the situation to them and ask if they have any other complaints about this person and for advise.
    The number is available online using a google search.
     
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  22. kmoro
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    by kmoro » Dec 28, 2018
    I
    Just to emphasize the certificate comment re: Argyle mine. It’s a bit more than a brand name. This mine accounts for 90% of these coloured stones and will close in 2020.

    I’ve been googling the hell out of this Argyle diamond investment thing, and I have become somewhat less convinced this is a scam. Let’s hope the OP got one of the legitimate companies.

    To OP - please keep us posted!
     
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  23. lovedogs
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    by lovedogs » Dec 28, 2018
    I still have a really hard time imagining how this is legit if OP has never been in posession of the stone and the seller refuses to send to gia.
     
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  24. lovedogs
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    by lovedogs » Dec 28, 2018
    Here is a trusted vendor who is known for fancy colors. See the certs and prices and compare to yours. That might help clarify things and see what paper work you have vs what is shown here.
    https://www.leibish.com/argyle-diamonds
     
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  25. kmoro
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by kmoro » Dec 28, 2018
    I agree - my instincts say this is bad ... google search suggests that there are possibilities though.

    (there is no GIA in Canada ... but seller should not pick the lab either)
     
  26. Bron357
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    by Bron357 » Dec 28, 2018
    I’m just having trouble understanding why another lab report is required.
    How many lab reports does a diamond need?
    If it’s an Arygle pink diamond and GIA certified it already has the best two and the only two lab certifications that matter!
    If I buy a Rolls Royce from Rolls Royce complete with Flying lady on the bonnet and registration papers with engine and chassis number listed correctly and matching I don’t need to take it to the local mechanic up the road to get him to tell me “it’s a Rolls Royce”!
    If the diamond actually is as originally “sold” to the OP all the confirming documentation already exists. It doesn’t need another report.
    Is the dealer trying to shift responsibility ie if the diamond arrives to the OP and doesn’t match the documentation is that fault / switch / theft/ loss because of the Canadian Lab and it’s their fault and responsibility?
    Is that why a stat dec is needed to say the OP is the owner ie the OP takes responsibility and gives authority to send it to the Canadian lab so any subsequent problem is between the OP and the Canadian Lab?
    Me, assuming the diamond cost the OP tens of thousands of dollars, I’d be getting on a plane and arriving at said Dealers office and saying I’m not leaving until I get my certified Argle Pink Diamond into my hand.
    And I’d be wearing a Go Pro and taking a x20 Loupe to read the inscription number on the diamonds girdle!
     
  27. Lovesparklesparle
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    by Lovesparklesparle » Dec 29, 2018
    Have you researched the vendor? Are they reputable with good reviews, or are there suspiciously good reviews paid for to dilute the bad ones?

    Being from a convention they would have to be legit in some way at least, surely you can investigate the company?
    If they are a big company with a valuable reputation, less likely this is a scam.

    However, people can still buy a square metre of real estate on the moon too. It also comes with a certificate of ownership... sorry not constructive but to someone who has zero experience with your situation it does seem odd that you never had possession. I would expect after you purchased the stone it would be sent to you, then sent to the new purchaser by you when the time came.
     
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  28. Lovesparklesparle
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    by Lovesparklesparle » Dec 29, 2018
    Are you able to share the company you purchased this from so we could look into them?
     
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  29. Grateful4UrWisdom
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    by Grateful4UrWisdom » Dec 31, 2018
    Dear Advisors,

    Thank you again for your generous input and advice with my situation. I would rather resolve this matter myself than moving forward with legal counsel and the Canadian authorities. To answer some of your questions more in depth.

    In 2008, the company was called DDI Diamonds Direct and had their main offices at the World Trade Centre in Vancouver, which I visited during the investment convention. (Over the years, their name has changed/also been Rare and Precious Gems, Carats.com, and Natural Coloured-something) It was an impressive suite with a professional-seeming staff of at least 5 people who I met. The owner's pitch was that he was one of a select few who had access to the Argyle auctions for natural colored diamonds, purchases wholesale from Argyle, passes the savings onto investors like me, then finds buyers to buy them at a profit, and splits that profit with the owner. Hence why he retained possession of the diamonds in his vault (behind his desk- which was visually impressive at the time). He's also been covered on various business tv programs touting natural colored diamonds, which again naively projected authority. I refrain from mentioning his name here bc I don't want to slander anyone - he has a family with kids - despite scamming me.
    After returning to Los Angeles, I naively agreed to pay $25,880 for the .23 carat Oval Brilliant Cut Natural Fancy Vivid Purplish Pink Argyle diamond. Papers below.
    For about 4-5 yrs, I called yearly checking in on the value appreciation (onstage in front of about 600 of us in the investment club, he showed graphs of 15% appreciation for natural colored diamonds, which again, naively I believed), and was met with yet a new "manager" who would give some excuse about valuation. After 5 or so yrs, I asked that they find a buyer for my investment and for another 2-3 yrs, I was given excuses about it not being a good time to sell. Finally two yrs ago, I was in Vancouver and set up a mtg. His office was now one room with one secretary, no longer at the WTC. He told me he was developing a new site for sellers/buyers of diamonds by the Fall. This never happened - no surprise, but it was a last hope. (I know I should have taken my diamond then, but I was concerned that I didn't know how to verify that it was the real one I purchased).
    Earlier this year, 2018, after checking in with him again, he first said he needed $500 from each diamond owner to create a marketing campaign to find buyers (huge red flag). When I passed, a month later he said he was "getting out of the diamond storage" business and returning all diamonds back to their owners and would like to get mine back to me. His protocol involves : 1) on my dime, having a "3rd party independent verification lab" verify that he was sending me the diamond I paid for, CGL-GRS Canadian Gemlabs, 2) sending him two forms of ID, with copies of original receipt of purchase, GIA certification, any appraisal documents issued at time of purchase,- and this seems weird - "a statutory declaration witness by a lawyer or notary confirming the legal purchase of the diamond and declaring you are the sole owner." This is when I asked him to send to GIA in Carlsbad, on my dime, and he's refused. I question whether he even still has my original diamond. Oddly, he's texted me on 3 occasions over the last 6 mo.s repeatedly requesting I go through this process - as if he's running out of time. He's also added that "all uncollected diamonds will be transferred to the government of Canada" - as if that's some sort of threat for me to agree to his terms.
    BBB has a complaint filed in 2016 against him, sounding very much like his character and another on Yelp complains of being scammed as well.
    So, I know my diamond is not worth near what I paid for, but I obviously want it back, bc it is an Argyle .23 natural fancy vivid purplish pink w.GIA inscription. And I don't want to get scammed again with him sending me something else.
    I hope this clarifies the situation. Again, if any further ideas or questions arise, I would appreciate your insights into this pickle.
    And Happy New Year to everyone.
    IMG_2781.jpg IMG_2783.jpg IMG_2780.jpg
     
  30. kipari
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    by kipari » Dec 31, 2018
    This
     
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