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Sapphire Question

kirkpatrickel

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
26
I made an inquiry about the stone below:
http://rockdiamond.com/index.php/je...pphire-oval-shape-beautiful-bright-blue-r4190

I asked about the grading for tone and color on the stone, but the seller did not have this information.

1) should I be skeptical of the seller?
2) I would like opinions on the stone.

I'm looking for an oval sapphire that is medium to medium dark in tone.

Thanks in advance.

Also suggestions on other stones would be much appreciated. I did correspond with Jeff White about a sapphire, but he doesn't have what I'm looking for right now. :blackeye:

The process continues.
 

T L

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
23,284
I think David is an expert on diamonds, but he's pretty new to selling colored gems, and he may lack this information because he's not familiar with those aspects. I only say that because he was recently asking about color and tone on this board, to educate himself. I don't think you need to be skeptical of him because he is a reputable dealer and has been in the jewelry business for eons, but you may need to get an independent laboratory report (which he may provide if you ask) for this stone. It's always a good idea to get a reputable lab report from GIA, AGL, SSEF, GRS, and the other major labs when purchasing a sapphire, as they are prone to many treatments.

As for the stone, I think it looks more like a recut of a native cut, than a full blown precision cut stone. I say that because it doesn't look to have perfect symmetry in the faceting and there's a small window.
 

SB621

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
7,863
TL|1317228400|3027922 said:
As for the stone, I think it looks more like a recut of a native cut, than a full blown precision cut stone. I say that because it doesn't look to have perfect symmetry in the faceting and there's a small window.
In the description it says it is precision cut by Roger Derry. I personally have never bought from him but I thought he was rather well regarded by those that buy from him.

I have no opinion really about the sapphire. I do like the color but I would ask for a picture of it resting on the fingers to see if there is a window. The sapphire is also heated if that makes any difference to you.
 

kirkpatrickel

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
26
I'm not an expert by far. Can you explain where the window is in the stone?

Also, how do you know it's heated? As it's advertised as not. In your opinion would these be grounds to bargain for a lower price (do people even do that?)
 

vinkalmann

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
231
kirkpatrickel|1317229692|3027946 said:
I'm not an expert by far. Can you explain where the window is in the stone?

Also, how do you know it's heated? As it's advertised as not. In your opinion would these be grounds to bargain for a lower price (do people even do that?)
It's a little confusing because there's the line that says because they buy from the mine they know whether it's heat treated or not. They're not really saying whether it is heat treated or not.

In the first group of picture you'll see the line that says "The stone is natural, and like many sapphires, has been heat treated."

If you look down a bit further, by the picture comparison between the native cut and the precision cut you will see the line "Many Natural Sapphires, including this one, are heated during the cutting and finishing process."

Often times sellers use the word natural as meaning not lab created. Even if a non-lab created stone is subjected to heat treatments (including BE diffusion) sellers will often list it as being a natural stone. So always take the word "natural" with a grain of salt.

Good luck in your search, it's fun!
 

T L

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
23,284
kirkpatrickel|1317229692|3027946 said:
I'm not an expert by far. Can you explain where the window is in the stone?

Also, how do you know it's heated? As it's advertised as not. In your opinion would these be grounds to bargain for a lower price (do people even do that?)
I suspect Roger didn't cut it for the most beauty, but to retain as much weight as possible, and this probably means he left a lot of the original faceting on that gem. It does not have the beauty of a fine precision cut gem, the caliber of which he is known for.

If you look face down into the table of the gem, you will see that you can see through to the bottom of the stone, instead of all the light from the facets coming back at you. That is a window. Here is the photo that represents that.

r4190b.jpg
 

minousbijoux

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
12,423
If you are interested in a blue sapphire, why don't you buy from Roger directly? I have a few of his stones and they are all exquisitely cut - I have to agree with TL that he was probably just trying to salvage color and weight on that one and it shouldn't really count as his "precision" cutting.
 

kirkpatrickel

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
26
minousbijoux|1317238979|3028080 said:
If you are interested in a blue sapphire, why don't you buy from Roger directly? I have a few of his stones and they are all exquisitely cut - I have to agree with TL that he was probably just trying to salvage color and weight on that one and it shouldn't really count as his "precision" cutting.
I'm pretty new to this; I stumbled on this forum after my fiance and I were given a run-a-round with a local jeweler.

That being said, I just looked at Roger's site and it looks as if he doesn't have the size and cut I'm looking for; however I will inquire.

I found another one of his stones on the diamonds by lauren site: http://rockdiamond.com/index.php/jewelry/loose-sapphire-precision-cut-177ct-blue-ceylon-sapphire-oval-shape-r3905n

This stone is reportedly heated. Any thoughts on this one? advice is greatly appreciated.
 

kirkpatrickel

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
26
The seller made an inquiry to the stone cutter for more details on the stone. This is what I got back:

Color: on their scale of 0 thru 10, I would place this as 6 to 6-1/2 (but again, I believe your photo is slightly lighter than in the hand, this is just my opinion)

Tone: on their scale of 00 thru 100, it is 55-60
Do those with more experience with sapphires concur? Also, as it is now, I'm looking at two stones that have caught my eye. Do you think either of these would be a good buy for an engagement ring?

1. http://rockdiamond.com/index.php/je...pphire-oval-shape-beautiful-bright-blue-r4190
2.http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10883/5221

Opinions and critiques of the stones are welcome.

Best.
 

Justin_Cutter

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 20, 2011
Messages
539
Congrats on being Engaged!
As far as local jewelers giving you the run around I know your pain. It is probably safe to say that in regards to finding a quality sapphire its best to take it into your own hands.

I feel that in the size range you are looking at you should be able find a sapphire with excellent color and a great cut for a good price! Hang in there and do as much searching as you can. The market changes every day!

The first Sapphire that you posted I would personally pass on. The color is a little weak and the window in the stone would drive me nuts!
As for the sellers description of the stone I would say that is fairly accurate.

The second Sapphire you have posted would be my pick of the two. I think that stone most likely will not have a window in it thanks to the cut depth. Remember that cut depth is important in regards to the likelihood of a stone having a window. 60%-80% cut depth is what you should aim for. :))

Do you care if the sapphire has been heated or treated?

Good Luck!
~Justin
 

T L

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
23,284
I really don't like that inclusion in the WildFish gem, but perhaps that's why he has it on sale. He says it's not noticable IRL though, but it looks significant in that photo, but perhaps not from the table up.
 

LD

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
9,707
Both sapphires have windows but I prefer the first sapphire based on colour. The window in it may close up in a setting.

David at DBL will, I'm sure, help you to get any/all answers you need as he knows the cutter of the stone. I've bought from David before and his customer service is excellent. I'm not sure what country you're in but if you're interested I'm sure David has a good returns policy (in case you don't like it in person).

The key to shopping for sapphires is to actually see them. Photos can be deceptive and seeing how it performs in all lights is key to making an informed choice. Also, if a stone has a window, putting it between two fingers on your hand will give you an indication of whether the window will close up or not once set.
 

Justin_Cutter

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 20, 2011
Messages
539
LovingDiamonds|1317579911|3031321 said:
The key to shopping for sapphires is to actually see them. Photos can be deceptive and seeing how it performs in all lights is key to making an informed choice. Also, if a stone has a window, putting it between two fingers on your hand will give you an indication of whether the window will close up or not once set.
Great advise!
After closer examination I agree with Loving Diamonds. Both stones are definitely windowed. I missed the more pictures button on the WildFish stone. Seeing the bigger pictures let me see it clearly even on this crappy monitor I am currently viewing on. :nono: Also I now see the inclusion that TL is referring to. I agree with TL's assessment of it.

If you really like both of these stones I would really encourage you to see them in real life as Loving Diamonds said. That is the only way you will know the true color of the stones and just how bad those windows are.

Sometimes even if a stone is windowed I personally wont mind it as long as the stone holds its color. This really depends on the cut for me personally as to whether or not I will deem it passable. I have seen stones with windows that once you look down on them from the top the center completely disappears.:blackeye: And I am not talking a small window but a huge one. Probably 60% of the stones color disappeared. Unfortunately I would have never known this based on the dealer pictures. Only real life viewing will give you the "true" quality of the stone.

~Justin
 

kirkpatrickel

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
26
Thanks for the input. I'm glad to hear that skipping local jewelers is the recommended approach; my fiance trusts them whole heartedly...I'm a bit more dubious.

I've found a slightly larger sapphire on the DBL site that we're looking at: http://rockdiamond.com/index.php/je...t-177ct-blue-ceylon-sapphire-oval-shape-r3905.

We're planning to order in October...it sounds silly, but then we'd get everything sorted around my birthday and Christmas.Which makes it engagement/birthday/christmas present. Which is how I prefer it.

I'll keep y'all posted.

Thanks!
 
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