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Ruby Origin

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Bugatti

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 30, 2004
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Is it difficult to determine the origin of a ruby? I would like to determine the origin of my mother''s ruby ring. It was purchased in the early 1950s from an estate jeweler in New York by my grandfather for her. As you can see in the picture it changes color depending on the angle of light. Under black light it is bright glowing red. Any information appreciated.

mothersring.jpg
 
Hello,
The first step in gemology is to be able to identify a stone nature: ruby, spinel, garnet, assembled stone?
Then an experienced gemologist can most of the time identify if the given ruby is natural or man made,
Then the next step is: determination of treatment... that can be very difficult.
After all that a good experienced gemologist might be able to have a good opinion about the gem origin but not all the time...

Origin determination of rubies is a real challenge especially if the stone was heated...

Nowadays rubies are found in Burma (3 main deposits), Vietnam, Thailand, Australia, Cambodia, Nepal, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Madagascar, Kenya, Tanzania,...
Now if your stone was bought 50 years ago some possibilities can be eliminated but in gemology I was teached to look at a stone with my eyes not with my ears. So this argument is not to take really in consideration if you want to work properly.

I''m sorry, gemstone identification is not possible from photos through a website. origin determination is absolutly impossible like that.

You have to send the stone to an experienced lab and see what they say about.

All the best,
 
thank you for the fast response. i''ll take your suggestions. btw,
i''ve read many of your posts mogok, and i think your level of knowledge is breathtaking.

best
bugatti
 
I forgot to ask you Mogok. You mentioned "if your stone was bought 50 years ago some possiblities can be eliminated." What possibilities would that timeframe eliminate? Also I should have asked when it glows such bright red in UV light and changes color so drastically with different angles does that eliminate some "other than" ruby possibilities or narrow down possibilities? Thanks again.
 
Hi Bugatti. The size, color, cut, fluorescence and ring mouting strongly suggest that the stone is a flame fusion synthetic ruby. It certainly has "the look".

It's a simple ID for a gemologist to check. Shouldn't cost you more than $25, with many gemologist's giving a quick verbal at no charge.
 
Date: 12/1/2004 2:30:42 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
Hi Bugatti. The size, color, cut, fluorescence and ring mouting strongly suggest that the stone is a flame fusion synthetic ruby. It certainly has ''the look''.


It''s a simple ID for a gemologist to check. Shouldn''t cost you more than $25, with many gemologist''s giving a quick verbal at no charge.
Click to expand...
I agree
Thats what I was going to say but refrained because im not an expert.
 
Hello,
if the stone is really 50 years old so forget about Mong shu in Burma, and the vietnam origin as the mines were discovered in the turn of the 1990s. Madagascar is even more recent... Kenya, Tanzania, Pakistan gems began to arrive arround the 1970s if I dont mistake.

At this time Mogok in Burma and the Thai-Cambodian area were the main producing area, but stones from Afghanistan, and rare Sri lankan were possible.

Mogok stones are usually strongly fluorescent as they dont contain iron, the Thai Cambodian gems are typically darker and less fluorescent as they are more iron rich. Separtion between these 2 origin is not really a problem.
Now of course the other origin to be considered is man made as flame fusion synthetics arrived in the market at the beginning of the XX century. They are strongly fluorescent under both long and short wave and do not present any identification problem for a gemological laboratory.

Richard Sherwood is right, and as I said in my previous post: try to determine:
- first if the stone is ruby.
- second if its is natural or synthetic
- then you will have probably (if the stone is of hight quality) to bring it to a good laboratory in order to check if the stone was heated and to have an opinion about its origin.

All the best,
 
Just a brief note regarding strong red fluorescence in ruby. It is fairly meaningless as a test. Most natural sources (Burma, Vietnam, Ceylon, Kenya, Tanzania, Madagascar) produce rubies that fluoresce strong red under LW/SW UV. It is really only Thai/Cambodian rubies that do not. Again, among the synthetic rubies, most show strong red fluorescence.

When Thai/Cambodian rubies were the majority of the market, their slightly weaker SW fluorescence gave an indication to a skilled gemologist. But that source is today largely extinct.

One area where fluorescence is useful is in identifying heat treatment. Certain heat-treated sapphires and rubies may display a weak to moderate chalky blue to green SW fluorescence. It is often the colorless areas of the stone that fluoresce. This can be extremely subtle and so magnification is often useful for its observation. Take care to protect your eyes, and don''t over-expose the stone, as that radiation creates yellow color centers (these color centers later fade).

Keep in mind also that certain synthetic sapphires show a similar chalky SW fluorescence.

A final note on fluorescence. On occasion, I have seen an unusual chalky yellow SW fluorescence in small patches on Kashmir sapphires. No idea what causes it.

Bottom line: like most tests, fluorescence can be useful in the hands of an expert; for an amateur, it can easily mislead.
 
Mogok and Mr. Hughes. Thank you both.

This I can see is a complicated issue. It (my mother''s ring) does show bright under UV light. There is a very slight crystal grain when looking in the light and very, and i mean very few, inclusions. I am not 100% but I highly doubt my grandfather would have puchased a synthetic from his estate jeweler. That stated I have informed my mother she should get it analyzed for sake of its age and size it is worth the investment. The information you have both provided is extremely informative and educational.
 
I should first mention I have found it very difficult to photograph this ring. I have a digital camera and tried many settings. Under different light it comes out many different shades and variations of clarity. It is not cloudy or murky as some of the bright pics could lead one to believe. It is very clear and bright. I have seen these flame fusion stones in stores (btw thanks on the flame fusion issue) this is no way appears like them in hand. I highly doubt this estate jeweler would have sold my grandfather 50 years ago being a good customer a synthetic as a real stone (but I have found anything is possible.) I should also mention about a decade ago when my mother had the setting worked on another jeweler in Upstate New York who worked on the ring told her "you have a very valuable ring here." She did not question him but mentioned to me that she also noticed his face when she took the ring out. This leads me to believe again that it is natural. But again the testing will tell what we have here. Thanks again to all.
 
Hello Bugatti,

Well so I advise you to bring the stone to a reputable lab or to somebody that has enough knowledge to tell you more about your stone. May be you can join a gemology course and study your stone there (i did that... and many students at AIGS are doing that.) I know a retired lady that has this way studied all her stones with the help of her teachers (that were also laboratory gemologists) she got the information about the real nature of her stone and she was also able to understand why...
She was very happy with her stones before to come and even more after she left!
Anyway, owning a mysterious stone is a very nice way to progress in gemological knowledge!
Enjoy!
All the best,
 
Yes, I agree Mogok. I am going to look into some courses. It is a fascinating subject to me. This can certainly be the catalyst for further education. Thanks again.
 
Date: 12/2/2004 9:25
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1 AM
Author: mogok
I advise you to bring the stone to a reputable lab or to somebody that has enough knowledge to tell you more about your stone.
Click to expand...
One of your best bets for that here would be in NY at the AGTA...information is available at AGTA GTC Fee Structures. Looks like a simple id will run in the hundred dollar range, then based on that you can decide whether to get an origin determination for a few hundred dollars more.
 
Thank you all for your insight. It has been some time since last posting yet I have followed the suggestions posted here. I had my mother''s ring looked at by a respected expert. It is a natural ruby and although doing testing they do not believe it to be heat treated. This has taught me the difficulty in asking one to review any stone out of hand, and proven to me not to rely on ''looks like'' opinions from photo images.
 
Bugatti,

Congradulations on the natural ruby. I would send it to AGL if it was unheated. Have it checked for origin and if Burmese have a full report done on it.
 

Congrats!


That looks like one big ruby! Nice color in some of those photos. And if it is natural untreated as your expert says - you probably have a very valuable gem.


AGL is a possibility - they will do a complete workup - but are pricey. But for a ruby of that size it may be worth it.


Me personally - I would send it to AGTA for the cert (specs, treatment and origin) - and then to a good independent appraiser/lab for a full GIA color/clarity grading, cut quality, photos, and value check. Then get it insured!




 
Hi Bertrand,

The reason I like AGL for very good stones is if lost or stolen the insurance company will not pay you if they replace the stone with one that fits the description on the appraisal. It doesn''t matter what they say the value is. AGTA just has color RED no mention of tone, satrutation or how included. Those factors make a big difference in repacement cost. The more specific the better.
 
Well it looks like a really nice stone. Congrats on your findings.
 
Bugatti - You''re off to a good start, but for what could potentially be a VERY valuable stone, you really must submit it to one of the most respected labs for confirmation (AGL, Gubelin, etc.). You need to have paper (the more info the better - substance, hue, tone, saturation, treatment, origin, zoning, brilliance, windowing, extinction, clarity, etc.) on this stone to convince any insurance Co. or potential buyer of its value.

I would have to remain skeptical, like Rich, unless you could produce such documents.

Best of luck!
 
Rich, Gary: Do you have any idea of how much such a stone, if it is natural, would have cost in the ''50s?? Seems to me it would have been very very costly...even then.

Bugatti: I certainly hope you don''t stop with the opinion of the respected expert, and that you go ahead and get a lab report from one of the labs mentioned above. Although only an amateur, I, too, would have to remain very skeptical until I''d seen the paperwork.

My goodness. If that proved to be a certified natural unheated ruby, it''s value could reach lottery proportions!

Best of luck to you, and do keep us informed on how you proceed!

widget
 
Date: 4/14/2005 7:17:13 PM
Author: widget
Rich, Gary: Do you have any idea of how much such a stone, if it is natural, would have cost in the '50s?? Seems to me it would have been very very costly...even then.
Click to expand...

Fine rubies over 4 carats in size were very rare and costly in the 50's, and are very rare and costly today.

The stone pictured proportionaly appears to be in the neighborhood of 8 carats (or more). It is described as "very clean, clear & bright". The photos indicate a fine color, although the camera is probably emphasizing the orange component more than it actually appears in real life.

An 8 carat fine non-Burma stone might whosesale between 5 to 10,000 per carat, or more. Add more for non-heat treated status.

An 8 carat fine Burma stone might wholesale between 10 to 25,000 per carat, or more. Add another 35 to 50% for non heat treated status.

Such stones are very rare, and come with plenty of fanfare and documentation, whether in the 50's, or today. There's usually not much guess work as to whether it is a thing of value or not.

Because of weight retention considerations, natural rubies are usually not cut in the emerald cut configuration. Synthetics, on the other hand, are commonly cut in the emerald cut shape.

Smaller rubies are rarely seen in as high a clarity as this one is reported to be. For an 8 carat stone to be would be extremely rare.

Although rubies from some localities can have strong or very strong fluorescence, flame fusion synthetics usually blaze away like the sun (as reported on this one).

An eight carat stone of great value would very seldom be seen in such a simple ring.

A husband giving his wife a gemstone of such great value would almost always impart that knowledge to his wife, have the stone thoroughly documented and insured.

It just doesn't fly. If this is a natural stone, I will eat my hat.

Bugatti, send it to Richard Hughes at the AGTA lab in Texas. One of the world's foremost ruby and sapphire experts in one of the world's most respected colored stone laboratories. They're also fairly reasonable in price compared to the GIA or AGL.

If it is identified as natural, I'll pick up the cost of the report.
 
Just for reference, an 8ct or so, Burmese, unheated ruby ring went on sale at Christie''s auction house.


In the Christie''s New York Magnificent Jewels Auction Tuesday April 12th of 2005, this 8ct ruby was presented in Lot #417, and was sold yesterday.

There were surrounding diamonds and it was set in platinum, but I believe it was purchased by a dealer for the purpose of the ruby alone. This piece went for $2,200,000.

It was graded by Gubelin Lab and included an appendix and "extensive notesdiscussing the exceptional rarity of this ruby; and a letter discussing the exceptional rarity of this ruby."

If you honestly have an item of such worth, I suggest getting it appraised immediately, insured and if you want to sell it, do not go through a random estate jeweler, I would personally suggest a reputable auction house for fine jewels such as Christie''s or Sotheby''s.

If it is not a natural ruby, could it also be a red spinel, or even a red synthetic spinel? I know that synthetic spinels actually are determined from naturals from their fluorescence under SW (?). Perhaps it is a garnet, topaz or tourmaline?

I too found my grandmother''s old "ruby" ring, which was large and barely even included at all. I later tested it and found it was synthetic ruby, and could tell by the curved striae (or the growth lines of the synthetic process) just by looking in the microscope under 40X or so. If you can magnify the stone, any inclusions will help identify it. Like finding needles are a good sign, but finding air bubbles are not...

Good luck and let us know how it goes!!!
 
Although I realize that one can''t identify and characterize stones from their pics, the ones you have shown portray a just too red (appparent lack of any secondary colors) and just too clean a stone to be a natural one.

Again, as Rich pointed out the nature of the cut is also a bit of a problem. For example, if you go to www.cherrypickedl.com and look at all the ruby pics, the most expensive ones of size (>3ct.) are frequently ovaly, cushiony slightly irregular stones - cut simply to produce as much weight as possible.

I hope that we are mistaken, but you do need to get some top lab paper on this stone...and now it may not cost you anything, thanks to Rich''s magnanimous offer!!

We are all dying to find out just what the answer is!
35.gif
 
Bugatti,

I agree with Richard Sherwood. From what I have read and what I have seen on this thread, there are too many alarm bells going off for me to be comfortable with one expert''s opinion that your ring is set with a natural ruby. And do not go to an auction house for an appraisal! That''s another very biased group of not so expert opinions. If this is an important gem, it should have the full complement of paperwork from an independent laboratory. Pay the money for the reports and I will pitch in for the lab report as well, if it is a natural ruby.

Regardless of it''s origin, it is still your heirloom and should be treated that way. There are many places in this ring''s history where mistakes could have been made. In the 1950''s, there was not the accent there is now on knowledge. Retailers, regardless of how nice and fair they were, were largely ignorant, trusted their supplers and passed on a lot of false information on, with the sale of the jewelry. Synthetic rubies have been with us a long time and there is a long and interesting history of their development that you will enjoy exploring.

None of the people on this forum intend to do anything but help. We are in a unique position to guide, explain, teach and learn ourselves. And we can''t wait to hear the outcome of a mystery.

Richard: I mean this about pitching in.






"Gold there is, and rubies in abundance, but lips that speak knowledge are a rare jewel."
 
Date: 4/15/2005 12:38:40 PM
Author: loupe

Richard: I mean this about pitching in.
Click to expand...

Great Karen. Just go ahead and send me your half, and I'll hold it in escrow.

Heh heh heh.....escrow in Busch Gardens tickets.
 
My mother had a very beautiful large (maybe 4 cts.?), red stone in a gold ring that she was given by her grandmother in the 1950s. Because my mother's birthstone is ruby and because she was never into gems enoguh to know their relative values, she always assumed it was a ruby. When I was a kid, I remember her telling an antique dealer about the ring, and he was shocked, suggesting that we go it through sotheby's, etc., if we ever decided to sell it.

When my mom upgraded her e-ring a few years after that, she had the jeweler take a took at the "ruby." Any guesses? Sythethic spinel. And a very beautiful, heirloom-worthy synthetic spinel at that. :-)
 
Mogok...why do you have a French name? Do you speak French? I have "known" you here for so long that suddenly to see another name, especially a name like "Vincent Pardieu", took me by surprise!

Deborah
 
Yeah, Mogok is French. I thought it was rather well-known around here. He''s "the French gemologist in Bangkok" that we all know and love at AIGS.
 
Hi AGBF,

Well, Yes: I''m French and my name is Vincent Pardieu... It was quite a bit of time I was thinking to change my pseudo to my real name. I feel that it is better and as I''m building a personal website besides the website from the lab I''m working in, I think that it this is a good choice.
Anyway I hope that my nationality does not create any problem for you!
All the best,
 
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