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Round Diamond Proportions - Slightly thick and high table, does it matter?

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by uphone, Feb 26, 2019.

  1. uphone
    Rough_Rock

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    by uphone » Feb 26, 2019
    Hey - So I'm working with a diamond wholesaler to find a stone. Based on my internet research, I found some ideal cut guidelines and calculators that are helping me weed out diamonds and trying to maximize performance. I understand that this process is highly subjective and there is no exact science, but as a person that does statistics for a living, it's hard for me not to ignore the guidelines and algorithms these "experts" have generated haha.

    The stone that my wholesaler found is slightly out of these "ideal guidelines" that I found on the internet due to the 59% table, 4.5% girdle thickness, and 1.01 l/w ratio. I recently saw a diamond in the store and my girlfriend was very happy with the size of 7.48 x 7.45. Are there any red flags from the specs of this diamond? Assuming the diamond is eye clean, does it look to be a good deal?

    Here are the GIA specs: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=3315878255&s=1551183901904
    • GIA #: 3315878255
    • Price: $10,800
    • Shape: Round
    • Carat: 1.64
    • Cut: Excellent
    • Color: H
    • Clarity: VS1
    • Fluor: None
    • Polish: Excellent
    • Symmetry: Excellent
    • Table: 59
    • Depth: 61.5
    • L/W Ratio: 1.01
    • Measurements: 7.56x7.49x4.63mm
    • Crown Angle: 35°
    • Pavilion Angle: 40.6°
    • Girdle Thick: Sli. Thick
    • Girdle %: 4.5
    I used some online tools to evaluate:
    • Enchanted Diamond Cut Score: 97.2 (Anything above 97.1 is their highest rating)
    • Diamond Screener - On the edge of the intersection AGS and GIA Ideal
    • StoneAlgo - Could not score the diamond
    • HCA - 1.4 with Excellent for Light Return, Fire, and Brilliance and Very Good for Spread
    • Rare Carat - 6/7 - Only issue they had was they wanted girdle to be 4.0% thickness or less and this is 4.5%
    Guidelines found from Price Scope:

    In general, you can use these parameters to find ideal cut stones:
    • 54-57 table
    • 60-62.4 depth (prefer <62)
    • 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5, if paired with 40.6 pavilion) 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41, if paired with 34 crown)
    • 75-80 lower girdle facets (many prefer 75 for fatter arrows & bolder flashes)
    • Crown & pavilion angles must be complimentary. So a steep crown needs a shallow pavilion and vice versa. Some popular combos would be 35/40.6, 34/40.9 or 34.5/40.7 for example.
     
  2. Rockdiamond
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Rockdiamond » Feb 26, 2019
    Hi
    You’re confusing HCA with some “tools” that are nothing but sales props.
    “Cut Scores” on many websites are related to things like which stone is actually available- or which has the highest profit margin.
    HCA is based on many factors and gives a non commercial based result.
    The PriceScope guidelines are commonly used and will produce consistent results. But three are many amazing stones that fall outside these guidelines. There is some personal taste involved as well.
     
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  3. uphone
    Rough_Rock

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    by uphone » Feb 26, 2019
    Thanks for your input. The diamond in question is with my wholesaler overseas, so enchanted diamonds does not list it on their website, yet they still give a score based on the proportions. Diamond Screener doesn't sell any diamonds himself, he just plots diamonds based on GIA / AGS ideal proportion grades. StoneAlgo and RareCarat also do not sell diamonds, they just search for them on the internet get money via affiliate programs.

    I am definitely skeptical of these tools for similar reasons, but that is why I am considering ALL of them to make sure diamonds are consistently high rated across all of them as a way to weed diamonds out.

    I asked my wholesaler for ASET / Ideal-scope images, and he said he will send them to me tomorrow which I will post here.
     
  4. Rockdiamond
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Rockdiamond » Feb 26, 2019
    Hi uphone
    From my perspective as a consumer...say I'm shopping for a car, or whatever...
    If a site that gives advice is affiliated with a dealer or manufacturer, I don't feel comfortable trusting the advice given.
    PriceScope is truly unique in that regard.
    We have been an advertiser at times- and other times we were not. That had zero impact on the ability to advise shoppers.
    Just my .02cents....ASET IS and video imagery will give you the ability to judge for yourself- and get the input of others.
     
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  5. flyingpig
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by flyingpig » Feb 26, 2019
    The price is unreal. I think it is overly cheap. Curious if they are making any money on that:think:
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  6. Dancing Fire
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Dancing Fire » Feb 26, 2019
    Yup, Too good to be true. :bigsmile:
     
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  7. yssie
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by yssie » Feb 27, 2019
    Say you have one tool that favorite chocolate ice cream, and one tool that flavours vanilla, and one that favors strawberry.

    What does the intersection of all these tools give you? Does it give you a flavor that’s guaranteed to suit all three preferences?

    Don’t matrix “tools” into Venn diagrams - they aren’t designed to be used that way and you won’t get useful output using them that way. You’re a statistician - you know better.

    Post the ASET when you get it. But better than an ASET - can you get some plain ol’ photos of this stone?

    Also consider return, upgrade, and buyback policies when choosing your vendor - they matter more to some people than others, and some vendors take more customer-friendly stances than others.
     
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  8. uphone
    Rough_Rock

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    by uphone » Feb 27, 2019
    Thanks for the input. Not sure if I can get ASET, will try. Here is the video of the stone: https://up.diacam360.com/scan/4bbe_289990

    I am concerned about the black inclusions on the table, but not sure if it will be noticeable to a regular person.

    I am getting this price, since I am working with my parent's friend who is a wholesaler.
     
  9. Rockdiamond
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Rockdiamond » Feb 27, 2019
    I did locate the diamond on the wholesale database......the price of $10800 seems very unlikely to you - even if you're getting it from a "wholesaler". I use quotes because there's really no wholesalers left in this market.
    I mean, anything is possible- but in general, when a deal seems too good to be true, extreme caution is warranted
     
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  10. Paul-Antwerp
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Paul-Antwerp » Feb 27, 2019
    Double-checked what Rockdiamond just said. I also retrieved it at the owning cutting-house.

    And I fully agree with David: in the spirit of a business at least covering direct expenses, hoping to generate a reasonable gross profit in order to first cover overhead expenses, then possibly make a profit, selling this stone at the price you mentioned probably does not even cover direct expenses.

    We can call it unlikely or impossible, but it definitely is too good to be true.

    Live long,
     
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  11. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Feb 27, 2019
    Please be VERY wary of something that seems too good to be true. If the experts say the price doesn't make sense, then it's almost certainly a mistake or something else shady is going on.
     
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  12. uphone
    Rough_Rock

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    by uphone » Feb 27, 2019
    I will double check price of the stone, maybe I am getting the cost mixed up with another stone.

    Any thoughts on the video though? Any concerns on the clarity or sparkle?
     
  13. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Feb 27, 2019
    Hard to tell about "sparkle" from a video like that, but I'm not concerned about the clarity and the numbers suggest good performance is highly likely. Just make sure to double check price.
     
  14. uphone
    Rough_Rock

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    by uphone » Feb 27, 2019
    Great to hear. I will double check the price. I also asked for ASET image, which he said can be provided at an additional cost. I plan on paying for the ASET image once I verify the price. Thanks for the insight!
     
  15. Rockdiamond
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Rockdiamond » Feb 27, 2019
    Interesting that they are charging for an ASET - I’ve not heard of that before.
    I hope it’s not a lot
     
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  16. uphone
    Rough_Rock

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    by uphone » Feb 27, 2019
    Yeah that was a bit strange, let's see how much they charge for the ASET. Can't imagine it'd be too much. Should have updates by tonight or tomorrow morning. Thanks again for all your help everyone!
     
  17. skypie
    Shiny_Rock

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    by skypie » Feb 27, 2019
    Yes, very weird that they would offer you a diamond at cost, or even a loss, yet nickel and dime you on an ASET image which is provided by almost all vendors for free. :confused:
     
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  18. Rockdiamond
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Rockdiamond » Feb 27, 2019
    Regular readers of this forum as so well informed!!
    I can't count how many times the term "wholesaler" brings many issues.
    For one thing: buying a diamond involves a lot of services- such as providing an ASET.
    If someone was a "wholesaler" they are not set up to fully service a diamond buyer- especially a discriminating buyer.
     
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  19. uphone
    Rough_Rock

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    by uphone » Feb 27, 2019
    He said his vendor is charging the fee. I am also planning on getting the custom ring through him so he might be making up some of the profit on that as well.
     
  20. yssie
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by yssie » Feb 27, 2019
    Odds that this story ends well for you are sub-zero.

    You don’t need an ASET - there’s nothing wrong with the stone. It isn’t close to “superideal” optical symmetry, but you aren’t searching for exceptional optical symmetry.
     
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  21. flyingpig
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by flyingpig » Feb 28, 2019
    That's the only explanation I can think of for the such low price. It is possible that he's a bit overcharging for the setting. I have seen such business practice time to time.

    Regarding the stone itself, I agree with yssie. You do not need an ASET. I do not see any major flaw. At the worst, it may have minor leakage, painting/digging and obstruction issues. Regardless, it is still a top level GIA EX and you are only paying $10,800.

    If you decide to proceed, double check how reputable the jeweller is and his return policy in writing. Definitely hire a reputable appraiser to ensure you are getting the right diamond and without damage. You probably want it appraised unmounted before the jeweller works on the setting.

    Working with friend's friend or family member's friend often does not end well. I hope your case is different.

    Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
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  22. uphone
    Rough_Rock

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    by uphone » Feb 28, 2019
    Less zoomed pics of the diamond: https://imgur.com/a/AUjtUlO.

    Zoomed video: https://up.diacam360.com/scan/4bbe_289990

    Seems like inclusion is noticeable with some zoom and tilt, but to the naked eye the center inclusion is not seen.

    My mom is currently overseas and we are saving money since we are not getting charged shipping fees or import fees that we would incur if we had it shipped to USA. We will be getting the stone in-person and will only pay for the stone by bringing an independent jeweler with us to make sure the stone is in good order, the certificate is real, and the stone matches.
     
  23. skypie
    Shiny_Rock

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    by skypie » Feb 28, 2019
    Maybe it is just the pictures but something looks weird about that stone to me in the pictures...

    It doesn't seem to have very clearly defined contrast patterns. Kind of a crushed ice look. But maybe that is due to the pictures not being taken from straight on.
     
  24. uphone
    Rough_Rock

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    by uphone » Feb 28, 2019
    Do you get that same feeling from the video? https://up.diacam360.com/scan/4bbe_289990
     
  25. skypie
    Shiny_Rock

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    by skypie » Feb 28, 2019
    Yes, I do, although I wish the video could be slowed down so the diamond doesn't spin as fast. Maybe an expert can chime in and say what they see. But I still kind of get that "crushed ice" impression from the pics and video.
     
  26. yssie
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by yssie » Feb 28, 2019
    Lower optical symmetry =>
    1. Smaller avg across totality of virtual facets
    2. Larger number of smaller virtual facets

    ... Compared to a stone with high optical symmetry.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  27. Diamond_Hawk
    Brilliant_Rock
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    by Diamond_Hawk » Feb 28, 2019
    I truly hope for the best for you - but there are a number of red-flags as listed above. Let us know how it plays out.
     
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  28. uphone
    Rough_Rock

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    by uphone » Feb 28, 2019
    Thanks. If I go look at the diamond with an independent jeweler to verify that the stone matches the GIA certificate, the stone is eye clean, and there are no major issues, and then hand over the payment what else could go wrong? I'm genuinely curious what else I need to watch out for.

    Our family trusts this diamond guy as we know him really well. Even if we didn't trust him, are there any other precautions that I should take before handing him over the money?
     
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  29. flyingpig
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by flyingpig » Feb 28, 2019
    1. Check the guy offers unconditional return policy.
    2. Make all payment with your CC. This provides you with better protection than cash or wire transfer.
     
  30. Karl_K
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Karl_K » Feb 28, 2019
    Hint: click on the diamond in the video and you can spin it slowly by moving the mouse.

    The basic numbers which are not that reliable from GIA puts it ags1 which is the second step in the AGS grading system.
    It means basically above average but not the best cut.
    The pictures are useless.
    The video shows some irregularities in face up optical symmetry but otherwise supports the base numbers.
    Everything is pointing towards an above average but not spectacular diamond.
    All that is just my opinion.

    Which brings us to the issue of the price which has already been well covered above.
     
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