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round brilliant purchase - idealscope?

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gmanesq

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
33
I am in the market for a 2 carat ring. I am very lucky to have found this site. I have been looking at roughly 2 carat GIA certified triple EX diamonds in the G&H color range and SI1.

Is the color good enough? I don't feel like I need to go higher, right? Can I go to I, although I feel with this stone, I like it to look a touch whiter.

Is SI1 ok? I didn't think I needed to go to VS2. Am I correct?

My next issue is the ideal scope. Only one jeweler so far has shown me the ideal scope. Is it essential to buy a diamond using this tool or can I rely on the GIA report that the cut truly is excellent?

If it is essential, is it crazy to buy my own idealscope and bring it to the jewelers?

If the stone is GIA triple ex certified does that mean it will have the hearts and arrows? <3 and ---------->

Any advice would help.
 
gmanesq said:
I am in the market for a 2 carat ring. I am very lucky to have found this site. I have been looking at roughly 2 carat GIA certified triple EX diamonds in the G&H color range and SI1.

Is the color good enough? I don't feel like I need to go higher, right? Can I go to I, although I feel with this stone, I like it to look a touch whiter.

Is SI1 ok? I didn't think I needed to go to VS2. Am I correct?

My next issue is the ideal scope. Only one jeweler so far has shown me the ideal scope. Is it essential to buy a diamond using this tool or can I rely on the GIA report that the cut truly is excellent?

If it is essential, is it crazy to buy my own idealscope and bring it to the jewelers?

If the stone is GIA triple ex certified does that mean it will have the hearts and arrows? <3 and ---------->

Any advice would help.
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Is this for you or for your partner?

Color, personal preference and sensitivity. Some prefer colorless, some tinted. No sure how sensitive you are but since you are seeing the stones personally, learn with your eyes.

SI1, most are eye-clean but case by case but also depends on how acute your eyes are, short-sighted person will be able to pick up inclusions better. Since you are seeing the stones, if it is eye-clean it is eye-clean.

Not really trusting GIA because the numbers are averaged and rounded. Ex cut from proportions allows for some underperforming stones. Read this article. https://www.pricescope.com/journal/laboratory_cut_grades_what_report_doesn’t_show

Not unusual for PSers to bring their idealscope when shopping but some jewelers might not allow it, so check before using it on thier stones.

GIA 3 Ex does not equate to H&A. GIA symm grade is not optical symm as needed for a H&A. For a H&A you will need to see the stone through a H&A viewer to see that it has well define hearts and arrows image.
 
I have been shopping with my GF and we both seem to like the colors G&H.

I am concerned about the cut the most.

Thanks for the reply. I may have to buy an ideal scope and see what happens.
 
I'll be redundant and ditto SC ::)


If having perfect optical symmetry is important to you it would be expedient to simply search through vendors' lists of branded H&As (often termed "superideals") - many stones may show arrows but comparatively few will have well-formed hearts as seen through the hearts viewer
 
Hi gmanesq! :wavey:

Thanks for posting!

My DH and I went to 47th St in NYC and brought an IS with us. I asked if a dealer would mind me using it and no one seemed to mind. It's a great device, and not that expensive considering how much you are planning to spend. Because of the magnification it can almost double as a loupe - it helps to see inclusions, believe it or not.

That aside, here are a few stones you may like from WF, if you are considering buying online. They have a VERY easy upgrade policy - I just used it myself to trade in an Expert Selection Asscher for an ACA Round Brilliant. (I am a client and not affiliated with the company.)

1. 2.02 ct H SI-1 ACA: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2275583.htm

2. 2.024 ct G SI-1 ACA: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2275579.htm

3. 2.143 ct H SI-1 ES: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2372479.htm

4. 2.132 ct H SI-1 ES: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2400041.htm

Color is a very personal choice. These H's are an excellent value over the G, IF an H is ok to your eye. I think an eye-clean SI-1 is a great way to go.
 
I guess my real question remains, is it absolutely necessary to have a perfectly optical stone with hearts and arrows or will a triple ideal or triple excellent cut be sufficient for a beautiful stone?
 
gmanesq said:
I guess my real question remains, is it absolutely necessary to have a perfectly optical stone with hearts and arrows or will a triple ideal or triple excellent cut be sufficient for a beautiful stone?
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Case by case and personal taste.

Case by case as GIA/AGS's symm grading is not the same as optical symm, so a Ex/Ideal symm grade not necessary means a H&A and a H&A not necessary have an Ex/Ideal symm grade. Some none H&A could be just off in certain other aspect of the cut like too large a star facet, which changes very little to the overall look of the stone.

Some just do not like the patterning of a H&A and prefer a splintery, unstructured look.
 
I had been looking at some modified round with extra facets and decided I did not like the splintery look. This cutter has been pushing his next level and saying it has hearts and arrows and it is far superior than anywhere else. Even though his prices may be the same as another jeweler's, he is saying that he is giving me MUCH better quality.

Am I to believe this? I have to ask the other jewelers if they have ideal scopes, which I bet they do not. If they do not, then I have to decide if I want to buy my own. I would assume that even though they are triple EX cuts, they will not have the hearts and arrows like the first jeweler's stones have.

Will the lack of hearts and arrows cause less scintillation, brightness and fire?
 
Gmanesq,
Before I decided to buy from an online PS vendor (Brian Gavin), I swore I would never buy from a local jeweler, purchased the ideal scope set, and went to town at my local jewelers and brokers.

In all but one case, the jewelers did not mind my having the ideal scope. Some in fact looked through it as well and thought it was pretty cool. I found I was treated like someone who was serious about the process and was doing my homework - a more educated consumer that was not going to get ripped off if she could help it.

The one case that I got harassed for it was from a graduate gemologist who was really stinky about my having it. "what, are you going to get in the jewelry business?" "You know there's no such thing as an ideal stone so why would you want an ideal scope? It's just junk". It was the second time I had been in that location and the first time I thought they had crappy stones, and even more so the second time. I would not go back there.

I think having it is a good gauge of who you're dealing with. Those without an agenda who want to educate the consumer are fine; those who want to take the consumer for their $$ with an inferior product not so much.

Although I was at Tiffany's yesterday and did not bring it in. I was going in for sizing of a 3mm band and the lady was kinda cranky; I wonder now what she would have done if I had whipped out my ideal scope. :))

Hope this helps.
 
I think the thing that bothers me about the jeweler that is showing me his diamonds with the idealscope and light path scope is that he basically knocks everyone else. I inquired about Harry Winston and he said oh well HW uses great materials, but the cut quality is not as good as his.

I have never heard of anyone knock HW, so it confused me a bit. He knocks Tiffany, HW any and all the retailers. He says his diamonds are much more beautiful. I think his prices are good, but I am wondering if I am paying a premium for the cut that is not really necessary.
 
gmanesq said:
I think the thing that bothers me about the jeweler that is showing me his diamonds with the idealscope and light path scope is that he basically knocks everyone else. I inquired about Harry Winston and he said oh well HW uses great materials, but the cut quality is not as good as his.

I have never heard of anyone knock HW, so it confused me a bit. He knocks Tiffany, HW any and all the retailers. He says his diamonds are much more beautiful. I think his prices are good, but I am wondering if I am paying a premium for the cut that is not really necessary.
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I know what you mean, gmanesq. The beauty of the diamond should speak for itself - the jeweler should not have to slam the big names.

That aside, I tend to agree with your jeweler - a glitzy brand doesn't necessarily ensure a great diamond. I stopped in to Graff in NYC when I was looking for my e-ring and they showed me a diamond with some pretty bogus proportions and made it out to be the best in their vault.

Can you post the carat weight and GIA cert number? With that info, we can look up the diamond on the GIA site.
 
I don't have that number. I am going to another jeweler today who has a triple ex cut 2.02, G, SI1 which he is going to show me.

I will try to get all the numbers for this diamond.
 
Is there any truth when buying a diamond that is over two carats that it should not just be over like 2.01 or 2.02, but rather 2.05-2.10? i was advised by a couple of jewelers not to go just over as most cutters will cut poorly just go get it over two and not worry about the cut.
 
gmanesq said:
Is there any truth when buying a diamond that is over two carats that it should not just be over like 2.01 or 2.02, but rather 2.05-2.10? i was advised by a couple of jewelers not to go just over as most cutters will cut poorly just go get it over two and not worry about the cut.
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Higher chance but not impossible to find well cut stone at just above the 2 carat mark. This is due to a large jump in $/carat at the 2 carat mark which more than offset the discount due to a lesser a cut.
 
Do Harry Winston diamonds have hearts and arrows?
 
gmanesq said:
Do Harry Winston diamonds have hearts and arrows?
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I don't know for sure, but my guess is, some do and some don't.
 
I contacted Harry Winston and inquired about the hearts and arrows. A person at Harry Winston told me that he has been in the business for 43 years and has never been asked this question. He said they use triple excellent GIA certified diamonds. All their diamonds are D, E, or F and VS2 or better. Some may have hearts and arrows, but it is not essential for a Harry Winston diamond.

My question remains, do you have to have hearts and arrows to have a beautiful diamond?
 
gmanesq said:
My question remains, do you have to have hearts and arrows to have a beautiful diamond?
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There are many threads arguing both sides.

For an RB my opinion is no.


The precision of cutting that creates perfectly symmetric hearts (and I'm including modified hearts in this statement) requires much more time and effort than just getting the proportions "right" on target.

The high optical symmetry results in larger avg virtual facet size, and the larger the virtual facet the greater the capability for pronounced and uninterfered-with light refractions & dispersions - this is part of why princesses and rounds of the same face-up area have very different "types" of performance. If you're looking for big, bold flashes and blocks of colour, having larger virtual facets will enable this type of light return.

However, in the real world, the difference between a round with perfect optical symmetry and a round of similar proportions without is going to be far less than the difference two rounds with different lower half lengths, different crown/pavilion combos.. The price difference between a well-proportioned "near H&A" and a "true H&A" is significant, the appearance and performance will be IMO 99.9% indistinguishable.

So.. is it important? Lots of people think so, and are willing to pay the premium for it. Lots of people don't.
 
gmanesq said:
I contacted Harry Winston and inquired about the hearts and arrows. A person at Harry Winston told me that he has been in the business for 43 years and has never been asked this question. He said they use triple excellent GIA certified diamonds. All their diamonds are D, E, or F and VS2 or better. Some may have hearts and arrows, but it is not essential for a Harry Winston diamond.

My question remains, do you have to have hearts and arrows to have a beautiful diamond?
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The hearts and arrows thing can be elusive and your eye needs to be trained. I might look at a pavilion and see hearts, but if the heart-shape isn't just-so, the expert may say they aren't perfect hearts and therefore it's not a perfect hearts-and-arrows.

If you need a perfect bona-fide Hearts-and-Arrows, you will need to understand what exactly that means and be able to recognize it yourself. Either that or buy a branded stone, like "Hearts-on-Fire", and pay the premium.

In my opinion, a stone can be very beautiful and not be a "perfect" hearts-and-arrows.
 
people refer to "perfect hearts & arrows", but what if there are no hearts and arrows at all?

Shouldn't a triple excellent GIA certified stone still be beautiful? I question whether the premium is worth it?

What if I can get a stone with hearts and arrows for a nominal premium over the triple ex GIA stone? Do I just go with the Hearts & Arrows diamond?

I have viewed stones under the ideal scope with Hearts and arrows that have been sharp. I just wonder if I am getting too technical and should just look at the stone and its beauty.

My concern is the jeweler who is pushing the hearts and arrows diamond keeps talking about "bling" and light reflection. He claims it is all about the "bling". A woman will get grease or dirt on the stone and you will want it to be as bright as possible so this way it will still "bling" in dimmer light or when dirty. Is this good advice or is he disregarding contrast and other attributes of the stone?

I am getting down the last few stones available and would like to make a decision. I am leaning towards H, but still question if I should pay the extra for G. Same for SI1, do I pay the extra for VS2? Do the extra inclusion really affect the light reflection?
 
gmanesq said:
people refer to "perfect hearts & arrows", but what if there are no hearts and arrows at all?
I specified "near H&A" for exactly this reason - some people do not like the 'organized' look of arrows, and prefer a completely random pattern. GIA does not consider hearts when grading, but to get a very random pattern the physical (facet meet-point) symmetry must also be non-perfect, which will lower the symmetry grade given - which is fine, if that's the look you like!

Shouldn't a triple excellent GIA certified stone still be beautiful? I question whether the premium is worth it?
GIA ex/ex/ex is a wide range, encompassing proportion combinations that some people prefer whilst others do not. I like a tiny table, so I do not find stones w/ 60+ tables as beautiful, but that obviously doesn't mean they're objectively less beautiful...There are GIA vg combinations that show no leakage under the table until the stone is at a significant tilt angle, and GIA ex combinations that do, and vice versa - always best to look at each stone and evaluate all the info given, not just hte cut grade. Is the premium of H&A worth it to YOU?
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/in-search-of-a-3ct-plus-should-i-buy-this-one.146243/#post-2639523#p2639523']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/in-search-of-a-3ct-plus-should-i-buy-this-one.146243/#post-2639523#p2639523[/URL]


What if I can get a stone with hearts and arrows for a nominal premium over the triple ex GIA stone? Do I just go with the Hearts & Arrows diamond?
Again.. depends on what you want, whether you can see a diff in performance, whether the idea of having hearts is important to you

I have viewed stones under the ideal scope with Hearts and arrows that have been sharp. I just wonder if I am getting too technical and should just look at the stone and its beauty. Need a hearts viewer to show hearts, won't see them w/ an idealscope. If you don't care about hearts then yes, look at its beauty, if having hearts is a mind-clean thing for you then find a hearts viewer.. again, what is important to YOU?

My concern is the jeweler who is pushing the hearts and arrows diamond keeps talking about "bling" and light reflection. He claims it is all about the "bling". A woman will get grease or dirt on the stone and you will want it to be as bright as possible so this way it will still "bling" in dimmer light or when dirty. Is this good advice or is he disregarding contrast and other attributes of the stone? Yes, a shallower stone will be less affected by dirt on the pavilion than a stone w/ typical H&A proportions, since the refractive index of dirt/oil/grease is usually estimated 1.4, 1.5ish
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/setting-covered-or-open.147296/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/setting-covered-or-open.147296/[/URL]


I am getting down the last few stones available and would like to make a decision. I am leaning towards H, but still question if I should pay the extra for G. Same for SI1, do I pay the extra for VS2? Do the extra inclusion really affect the light reflection
Technically yes, inclusions affect light return. In the real world in the VS range it makes absolutely no difference.?
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Ditto.
Yssie said:
gmanesq said:
people refer to "perfect hearts & arrows", but what if there are no hearts and arrows at all?
I specified "near H&A" for exactly this reason - some people do not like the 'organized' look of arrows, and prefer a completely random pattern. GIA does not consider hearts when grading, but to get a very random pattern the physical (facet meet-point) symmetry must also be non-perfect, which will lower the symmetry grade given - which is fine, if that's the look you like!
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Just wanted to add that to get no pattern, the symm grade would need to drop, probably to a G, and then GIA will down grade the cut grade to a grade above the symm grade.
 
gmanesq said:
I contacted Harry Winston and inquired about the hearts and arrows. A person at Harry Winston told me that he has been in the business for 43 years and has never been asked this question. He said they use triple excellent GIA certified diamonds. All their diamonds are D, E, or F and VS2 or better. Some may have hearts and arrows, but it is not essential for a Harry Winston diamond.

My question remains, do you have to have hearts and arrows to have a beautiful diamond?
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cuz they sell base on their brand name.
 
but if you have triple excellent GIA,then there should be some pattern of H&A?
 
gmanesq said:
but if you have triple excellent GIA,then there should be some pattern of H&A?
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Hearts is optical symmetry, GIA grades physical symmetry, the two do not need to correlate perfectly so arrows yes as much as vg/ex physical meet-point symmetry dictates, hearts no
read this short article on how hearts are formed, I think it will answer lots of your questions http://www.wtocd.be/DiamondInfo/articlesPDF/Article4_Formation_of_HA.pdf
 
what table dimension do you find optimal? You said that 60 was too large in your opinion.
 
I just personally prefer a smaller table b/c I don't like table reflection, the smallest I've ever seen in person in a modern RB is 52 and I loved it. There's really no objective "optimal" table size by itself - with the right proportions a diamond can have a variety of table sizes and be a beautiful, bright, fiery stone..
 
gmanesq said:
what table dimension do you find optimal? You said that 60 was too large in your opinion.
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54-55% with high crown...but that just me.
 
do you have to have H&A to minimize light leakage or can you have a non-H&A diamond and still have optimal light return, scintillation, fire, etc?
 
No, 2 different things. H&A is a measure of optical symm not optical performance which is dependent on proportions. A stone can have optical symm of a H&A and proportions that leaks light or vice versa or any other combination.
 
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