Rough Diamond Facet Grade?? Cut Nuts Need Help!!

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Here''s to hoping some of you can assist here.

If purchasing rough, what should I be concerned with?

Is it even worth it? How much is cutting and getting the gem quality stone out of the rough?

If a piece has "facet grade clarity" is that enough?

And what size rough should I be looking for if I want a single stone of any reasonable size?

Thanks!

 

[strmrdr]

If you have to ask then don''t buy it.
The only reason for the average person to buy a rough diamond is to use it the way it is.
Anything cuttable will not be available to you.

Even then you have to be real careful not to end up in club fed on a terrorism rap.

 

[niceice]

Date: 5/21/2008 12:14:39 PM
Author:lisa1.01fvs1
1. If purchasing rough, what should I be concerned with?
2. Is it even worth it? How much is cutting and getting the gem quality stone out of the rough?
3. If a piece has ''facet grade clarity'' is that enough?
4. And what size rough should I be looking for if I want a single stone of any reasonable size?

Strmrdr said it best, but here''s an expansion, starting with we''re in the business and we don''t even play in this part of the yard...

A1: just getting completely ripped off, ending up with a piece of rough which is not going to produce what you want because the cutters aren''t likely to sell of anything that is of any real value because if it were, they would have cut it themselves or sold it off to one of their friends...

A2: Nope. Most of the time, the yield from the cutting process will be half or less than half of the weight of the initial rough.

A3: Nothing, absolutely nothing. Any cutter will tell you that while they estimate the quality that a piece of rough will yield, that the actual quality is not judged until after the diamond is cut and polished because the clarity and color can change with every spin of the wheel.

A4: See A3, but reverse it.

Advice: find a dealer who will work with you to find a diamond of the quality that you seek, you''re going to save a lot of time, aggravation and money. That said, if you REALLY want to work the system backwards and risk results which are not guaranteed, just about any dealer here on the forum can obtain rough for you and arrange to have it cut at your peril.

 

[John P]

Hi Lisa.

First of all, rough selling and buying is tightly controlled. Do you have an authorized source in a cut-center who is wanting to select a piece for you? If you don''t it''s a dubious proposition, as the others have said.

To your questions:

Normal sized gem-quality rough is typically sold in parcels of multiple pieces (see photo). You must have an extremely talented grader involved in the purchase who can estimate the shapes and sizes of finished diamonds that a given piece will yield as well as their finished color and clarity. This all changes as you consider how potential makes might ''lie'' in a specific piece of rough, and of course as you consider different orientations the way the inclusions would lie shifts completely. In sawable rough there will be a primary diamond and at least one other - often secondary - but again it''s all case by case and (usually) driven by maximizing yield and profit.

Once the rough is purchased all of the estimations must be re-visited and re-calculated, often involving the polishing of a window in the rough to see if anything was missed or misinterpreted. If this is the case the plan may need to be adapted.

 

[John P]

As far as yield goes, it’s completely a case by case basis and there are many ways to skin a cat.

For example, we could probably cut many pieces of 4 ct sawable rough octahedron to yield 2 midsize diamonds of over 1 ct but they would have to be 60/60 or steep/deep make. Since that is not our goal we resell those pieces. We focus on crystals that will yield only our specific geometry in round or princess. For us, this usually means cutting only one diamond of over 1 ct from a piece of 4 ct rough plus a much smaller one; around 0.50 ct.

You have probably heard that large diamonds are scarce, especially in fine makes. Consider why:

Here is a 17 carat piece of rough we recently bid on at tender. We estimated that it would yield an Infinity round of appx 5.25 carats as well as a smaller round in the 1 carat range. We were outbid by a competitor who is not focused on cut quality. They will yield a 6+ carat round by cutting at the steep/deep borders of GIA EX. It will be deeper than anyone here would accept, and perhaps not the most pretty stone, but it will be gigantic and I’m sure they will have no trouble selling it. For that matter, this other manufacturer might send it to a less strict lab for grading, which could possibly increase his profit.

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Strmrdr - Ouch! Brutal honesty but thanks.

Todd - More finess, thanks. Is it possible, just possible, one could stumble on a diamond in the rough? Perhaps from someone who
collects such crystals for fun? I know if it was worth anything why aren''t they getting it cut themselves? But what a hassel, right?

John - Glad to see u around. Your, as usual, in depth with pictures orientation is always a treat! Thank you.

Is there anyway to achieve provenance on rough if buying from a source not in the trade?

Sounds like a great way to get ripped-off.

I just came across a piece of Argyle rough and was intrigued.

 

[niceice]

Date: 5/21/2008 2:34:14 PM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1

Todd - More finess, thanks. Is it possible, just possible, one could stumble on a diamond in the rough? Perhaps from someone who collects such crystals for fun? I know if it was worth anything why aren't they getting it cut themselves? But what a hassle, right?

Anything is "possible" but buying rough is a risky proposition for people who don't do it often. I finished adapting an article written by an insurance company on diamond rough (as it is being used in jewelry) for our new site a few days ago which is currently in beta testing, here is an excerpt from it pertaining to a major concern:

"While to date, there have been no reports of faux diamond rough being sold at the retail level, over the past year the diamond industry has been plagued by fake diamond rough. In one incident, con artists attempted to defraud diamond dealers by offering them colorless topaz as diamond rough. Suspicions arose because in addition to being priced below market, the stones were always ice cold when tested and had unusual fractures. The rough crystals tested positive on the diamond tester, but shattered on the cutting wheel. Another scam attempted earlier this year involved a diamond rough imitation believed to be phenakite, a mineral beryllium silicate."

As with most things, I suppose that risk is lessened when dealing with known legitimate sources... I would be hesitant to purchase diamond rough from somebody who I didn't know - for one thing the restrictions of the Kimberly Diamond Act come into play and we wouldn't want to risk violating that puppy by buying diamond rough from Joe Schmoe on the corner selling diamond rough out of his raincoat. Psst, Buddy! is not a source for diamond rough!

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

So Todd,

Thanks for the reply. Then as strmrdr alluded, there are very strict guidelines where rough is concerned and any "pssst. buddy"
source is probably fake or illegal.

Interesting about the Kimberly Process. Most "lay" folk have no knowledge of diamonds at this point in the process.

So any guesses as to where this guy got his rough from? Why isn't he afraid of prosecution?

ETA: John also mentioned the tight control as well.

 

[purrfectpear]

There are a few sellers on fleabay from Belgium selling purported diamond rough. Assuming they''re real, they want around $300 for .75 to .85 rough. Consider that you''d have to spend another $500+ to have it cut, and you''d be lucky to end up with a .30 stone...that would be a $800 .30 stone.

And then again, it might be some random crystal.

 

[John P]

Date: 5/21/2008 8:16:48 PM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1
So Todd,

Thanks for the reply. Then as strmrdr alluded, there are very strict guidelines where rough is concerned and any 'pssst. buddy'
source is probably fake or illegal.

Interesting about the Kimberley Process. Most 'lay' folk have no knowledge of diamonds at this point in the process.

So any guesses as to where this guy got his rough from? Why isn't he afraid of prosecution?

ETA: John also mentioned the tight control as well.

After the turbulent 1990s things got tight worldwide and got even tighter in North America following 9-11.

In 2003 the Kimberley Process was adopted by the United Nations. Participating KPCS governments monitor and certify all rough diamonds in their territory before export, and forbid any rough diamonds from entering any of those territories without an approved KPCS certificate. Overseas manufacturers who do not maintain compliance can be excluded from international trade and/or prosecuted. As a result some cutting centers have enacted their own, harsher, regulations. For example, the Belgian Anti-Money Laundering laws are as tough as they come and work in concert with initiatives like Kimberley. According to Kimberley, and supported by Global Witness (one of the NGOs who helps monitor compliance) over 99% of the world’s rough diamond production is now Kimberley compliant.

Domestically the Clean Diamond Trade Act that was signed into law in 2003 prohibits the “importation into, or exportation from, the United States on or after July 30, 2003 of any rough diamond, from whatever source, unless the rough diamond has been controlled through the Kimberley Process Certification Scheme.” The Act requires the Census Bureau to maintain statistics on imports and exports of rough diamonds. As of October last year all importers of rough diamonds must fax a copy of the Kimberley Process Certification arriving with the imported diamonds to the USCB upon making any entry with U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

Even polished diamonds coming into America are regulated by the USA Patriot Act. Every US dealer must maintain Kimberley compliance or be subject to stiff penalties. Failure to comply with guarantees is not a simple FTC violation. Enforcement comes from the Treasury department, Homeland Security and the US Justice department. It's a very big deal and has been further promoted within the trade by initiatives like the Jewelers' Vigilance Committee's Patriot Act Compliance program.

Having said all of this, there are certainly some one-of situations that may be pre-existing (a piece of rough was brought over by an ancestor and is still kicking around for example). But no one walks around dealing undocumented rough. There is too much at-risk for the seller and any potential buyers...especially since any cutting facility would want clear proof of provenance before taking on the project.

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

So John,

What does one have to provide a cutter to get rough cut?

Assuming the cutter isn''t just a friend that would do it on the sly.

Provenance. What documentation does this entail for rough - I imagine something from the mine itself?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Lisa what are you doing?

you will burn your fingers - I do not buy rough - it is a world of its own for pro''s

 

[John P]

Sorry Lisa. I composed this on my laptop and closed it without posting. Just finding it.

First of all, I agree with everyone who has said "caramba!"

Please be careful.

Date: 5/21/2008 9:13:10 PM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1
So John,

What does one have to provide a cutter to get rough cut?

Assuming the cutter isn''t just a friend that would do it on the sly.

Provenance. What documentation does this entail for rough - I imagine something from the mine itself?

Traders who would actually be holding and selling rough must have accompanying documentation, including a KPCS certificate and appropriate seals. Copies exist for exporters as well as bearers.

Domestic downstream retailers are protected by a system of warranties. The principal element is the requirement for a declaration on the invoice accompanying every transaction of rough diamonds, polished diamonds and diamond jewelry from upstream to downstream in the pipeline. Typical wording is “The diamonds herein have been purchased from legitimate sources not involved in funding conflict and are in compliance with United Nations resolutions.” Issuing sources are responsible for the veracity of the statement, and subject to audit & oversight by the relevant national authorities.