Quick legal question

[packrat]

Ok, well, probably not so quick, the way I ramble.

Anyway, my bff rents part of a building, has had it for 5 years. She did a lot of work to her part of the building, and JD and I did as well, and also to the other side of the building, which the owner of the building uses. We did it out of kindness, did not receive anything for it, and did not expect it. My friend brought in a microwave, a wardrobe, and some other furniture items, and also bought hanging lights to match the front part of the building. She was told exactly which lights to purchase. The owner did not provide lighting. My friend also bought doors for her space, since you know, nice to have doors on a room, and the owner did not provide them. My friend is moving from this space now, and the owner tells her she can't take the lights or the doors. The owner *did* say she would *allow* my friend to take the microwave and other furniture items that my friend purchased for her own personal use in her space. Is this proper?

My friend was *required* to pay for things in the owners space and also to do work in the owners space, since my friend would be using them from time to time, so how is this fair? I'm also pretty sure she had to help pay for maintenance on the building too (the roof leaked during the springtime snow melts), but I can't swear to it.

To me, that's like if I rent a house and it doesn't have a front door, and I buy one, either it should get taken off the rent or I should be able to take that door w/me if I move out.

Is it a case of, nothing is in writing and it's attached to the building so the owner keeps it, regardless if it's fair?

 

[Upgradable]

I don't know all the legaleze, but if something is considered "installed" then it is considered part of the structure when it comes to moving out.

 

[Steel]

Forgetting about the law..
if the LL has a deposit she can retain then it is all moot. She will get a door or cold hard cash by the deposit. Now if she is that tight - she is likely to keep the deposit anyway so take the damned doors.

Back to the law....
If there was an inventory and it was agreed to, then if any itemised item is removed LL is entitled to sue or retain deposit. Your BB should not have agreed to any item which was not present. About the door and any other item which would not be on the inventory - LL can't sue for that unless she claims it was there all along, which is a believable comment. To counter any argument she has - if your BFF has receipts (and LL didn't reimburse through lost rent) then she can take any damn thing she likes, if it goes to small claims LL will be laughed out of Court.

 

[packrat]

Thanks guys! There was no deposit, tho she did have to pay $1000 up front to help w/expenses (the LL's expenses for the LL's space, not for friend's space) on top of the rest of the work she did. Nothing in writing either. Gah, it's just so shitty to be like, here rent space in my building, but you must provide everything in your space which is then considered mine, and you must also provide time and money into my space, which is also mine. The LL wasn't going to paint or do anything beforehand to the space my friend rented, not replace the ceiling that was falling in, not fix the floor that was ruined, nothing. My friend had to do it all. So then it's like, here rent my shitty dump of a house, go ahead and fix it up with your own time and money so it looks killer, and then when you don't rent anymore, haha see ya chump it's all mine. Oh, and the LL still used friend's space when she wasn't there, so rent my dumpy house, fix it all up yourself, and when you're not there, I get to live in it and you pay the bills. Duh.

The LL husband is a lawyer and I think some of it was done on purpose, personally. We encouraged our friend to have things in writing and to tell LL she should be the one to provide things (like, um, the toilet, the ceiling, a floor), but LL was of the "Oh we're such good friends I'm the nicest lady ever, we don't need anything in writing" and our friend just didn't believe the LL would ever do anything like that. Live and learn I guess.

She doesn't want to go to court over it, so I'm sure she'll just end up walking away. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a case of him being a lawyer so we just automatically listen to what he says about the law, just in case he was blowing smoke to be a butt. Regardless of the law, it says something about a couple, well, says something to me anyway, who is quite well to do and regarded very highly in the community that they would be such butts about it.

Thanks guys!

 

[Steel]

Thanks guys! There was no deposit, tho she did have to pay $1000 up front to help w/expenses (the LL's expenses for the LL's space, not for friend's space) on top of the rest of the work she did. Nothing in writing either. Gah, it's just so shitty to be like, here rent space in my building, but you must provide everything in your space which is then considered mine, and you must also provide time and money into my space, which is also mine. The LL wasn't going to paint or do anything beforehand to the space my friend rented, not replace the ceiling that was falling in, not fix the floor that was ruined, nothing. My friend had to do it all. So then it's like, here rent my shitty dump of a house, go ahead and fix it up with your own time and money so it looks killer, and then when you don't rent anymore, haha see ya chump it's all mine. Oh, and the LL still used friend's space when she wasn't there, so rent my dumpy house, fix it all up yourself, and when you're not there, I get to live in it and you pay the bills. Duh.

The LL husband is a lawyer and I think some of it was done on purpose, personally. We encouraged our friend to have things in writing and to tell LL she should be the one to provide things (like, um, the toilet, the ceiling, a floor), but LL was of the "Oh we're such good friends I'm the nicest lady ever, we don't need anything in writing" and our friend just didn't believe the LL would ever do anything like that. Live and learn I guess.

She doesn't want to go to court over it, so I'm sure she'll just end up walking away. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a case of him being a lawyer so we just automatically listen to what he says about the law, just in case he was blowing smoke to be a butt. Regardless of the law, it says something about a couple, well, says something to me anyway, who is quite well to do and regarded very highly in the community that they would be such butts about it.

Thanks guys!

So for an easy life BFF could just walk away or:

1. Take all the stuff she can find receipts for.
LL's fancy lawyer DH will have to get off his a$$ to try to sue her and risk embarrassing same said a$$ when he is laughed out of court as there is no inventory and the respondent would have receipts for her (Bff's) items.


2.Take all the stuff she has receipts for and not pay the last month's rent to the tune of her out of pocked refurbishment expenses, again that she has receipts for.
LL's fancy lawyer DH will have to get off his a$$ to try to sue her and risk embarrassing same said a$$ when he is laughed out of court as all the expenses would be vouched.

ETA: note that in both instances your BFF is not the one doing the suing....

 

[packrat]

Thanks Steal! Those are way better suggestions than my idea of returning the space to it's former condition haha. I would think she's got the receipts, so I definitely think she should be taking her stuff back. How does that work then, say she takes them, and is sued, and she has to retain a lawyer-wouldn't she then have to pay legal fees? Or does the sue-er pay? I'm clueless about this stuff.

 

[Steel]

Thanks Steal! Those are way better suggestions than my idea of returning the space to it's former condition haha. I would think she's got the receipts, so I definitely think she should be taking her stuff back. How does that work then, say she takes them, and is sued, and she has to retain a lawyer-wouldn't she then have to pay legal fees? Or does the sue-er pay? I'm clueless about this stuff.

You will have to post your state and hope somebody can help with the specifics. But here is how I would do it.

1. Find every damn receipt I could.
2. Copy them all.
3. If she want to: Stop payment on the last month's rent - save for any $$$ BFF can't claim in vouched expense and wire or send a cheque for that amt.
4. On moving out leave a booklet of copy receipts for every removed item in the building and a note saying it has been photographed for evidence of condition.
5. Photograph the condition of every wall, hallway etc with a newspaper in the shot (suggesting the current date - keep the newspaper!)
5. Job done.

LL's smart lawyer DH will have to present his claim knowing that he is suing for amounts your BFF can prove are her's legally. I bet you, he won't sue.

 

[Steel]

Ok, well, probably not so quick, the way I ramble.

Anyway, my bff rents part of a building, has had it for 5 years. She did a lot of work to her part of the building, and JD and I did as well, and also to the other side of the building, which the owner of the building uses. We did it out of kindness, did not receive anything for it, and did not expect it. My friend brought in a microwave, a wardrobe, and some other furniture items, and also bought hanging lights to match the front part of the building. She was told exactly which lights to purchase. The owner did not provide lighting. My friend also bought doors for her space, since you know, nice to have doors on a room, and the owner did not provide them. My friend is moving from this space now, and the owner tells her she can't take the lights or the doors. The owner *did* say she would *allow* my friend to take the microwave and other furniture items that my friend purchased for her own personal use in her space. Is this proper?

My friend was *required* to pay for things in the owners space and also to do work in the owners space, since my friend would be using them from time to time, so how is this fair? I'm also pretty sure she had to help pay for maintenance on the building too (the roof leaked during the springtime snow melts), but I can't swear to it.

To me, that's like if I rent a house and it doesn't have a front door, and I buy one, either it should get taken off the rent or I should be able to take that door w/me if I move out.

Is it a case of, nothing is in writing and it's attached to the building so the owner keeps it, regardless if it's fair?

About any verbal agreements that your BFF pays for x,y or z. Well, that is not worth the paper it is printed on.
LL's DH can't use that to sue her - well he could but he might as well pi$$ into th wind. As well he knows it. He can say BFF agreed to pay and BFF can say I agreed to pay upfront and they would deduct from the rent- but they never did. I'm not saying your BFF should go back on her agreement - I'm saying that it seems they have nothing to sue her for - if she only takes items she can vouch - and doesn't cause damage in their removal .

 

[LGK]

Yep, if she's got receipts just take the stuff she's got documentation for.

Small claims court, you don't need a lawyer for. You just show up with your paperwork and the judge decides. If there's something in writing and you're organized, chances are good you'll win. We had someone sue us some years ago over a clause in a lease they'd signed. The judge looked at the lease, asked them if that was their signature on the lease (of course it was) read the clause in question and then ruled in our favor, probably a total of 5 minutes all together spent in court. Because what they were suing for was covered in the lease as not our responsibility, and they'd signed it. (They had something stolen and were upset, understandably, but it clearly said in the lease that we don't reimburse for things that get stolen; the ridiculous thing was, if they'd contacted us *prior to suing* we'd probably just have reimbursed them to avoid the hassle.)

In this case receipts would be proof enough I'm thinking.

Isn't it amazing what jack@sses people turn into when there's money to be squeezed out of someone else?

 

[packrat]

Thanks Steal and LGK! We're in Iowa, if that changes anything. I'll ask her tomorrow what receipts she has and run this stuff by her. Good to know there's no lawyer involved with small claims court. I know she wants to just let it go and get the heck out of there but dangit I just can't stand the thought of her getting taken advantage of, plus the time WE put into the dang place actually probably saved LL a LOT of money. The doors JD and I did for her and they're really cool-she gets a lot of comments on them and it's something that people remember about her space. Not that she can't do it in the new space, I just don't think LL should get the coolness for herself ha!