shape
carat
color
clarity
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. PriceScope Upgrade Completed
    For issues, questions and comments click the link below
    https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/pricescope-upgraded-comments-and-issues.229551/

    Dismiss Notice

Questions for Mr. McEwen of gemesis.com

Discussion in 'Laboratory-Grown Diamonds /Man-Made Diamonds (MMD)' started by strmrdr, Jun 11, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. strmrdr
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    23,295
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2003
    by strmrdr » Jun 11, 2008
    Welcome to PS.
    I have several general educational questions for you.
    When possible please answer them in a general manner as related the the industry as a whole rather than specific to your company.

    Where do you see lab diamonds fitting into the market today?

    Where do you see the market for lab diamonds 10 years from now?

    How do you see pricing of lab diamonds working in future in relation to naturals? and why?

    Can you give an overview of the processes available to create them and
    how does the final product differ?

    Do you see a large opportunity with the increasing prices of natural
    diamonds?

    Can production scale to more than just a blip on the diamond market?

    Thank you for your time and consideration.

    storm
     
  2. Paul-Antwerp
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    2,706
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    by Paul-Antwerp » Jun 11, 2008
    Wow, Storm, you are immediately hitting Clark with good questions, which probably need two-page-answers on each of them.

    I know Clark for years now, and I trust that he will try to answer you as well as possible. But do give him a break and do not ask for too much at once. Your questions are sufficient to write a complete Journal-article about.

    I would suggest taking one question at a time.

    Live long,
     
  3. Wink
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    6,387
    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    by Wink » Jun 11, 2008
    I have only just met him, while with Paul in Vegas. Most of those questions are worthy each of their own thread, especially the one about synthetics in the market place.

    Andrey is to be applauded for encouraging such transparency, it will greatly add to the volume of knowledge available to our members here.

    Wink
     
  4. strmrdr
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    23,295
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2003
    by strmrdr » Jun 11, 2008
    Sorry if the questions feel like overload.
    They are questions I have been interested in for a while.
    Please feel free to skip over any or all that you don''t have time to answer.
    Thanks
    storm
     
  5. Wink
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    6,387
    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    by Wink » Jun 11, 2008
    LOL! Don''t let him off too easy. Just let him get one well answered then get him with another. We should be able to keep him busy for a week or three and learn a LOT in the process.

    Wink
     
  6. Wink
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    6,387
    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    by Wink » Jun 11, 2008
    I liked all of your questions Storm, but these three Are the biggies for me. (Personal interest, not saying these are the biggies for everyone).

    I am especially interested in his opinion of whether or not the synthetics will put upward or downward pressure on the natural market and whether the foresee a time when production can match the demand so as to lower costs of the synthetics. Also, if they foresee that happening, how do they foresee the answer to the question of pricing on the naturals.

    Dang, never thought I could use the word foresee that many times in one paragraph by accident. Gotta do something about this limited vocabulary.

    I can not begin to tell you how excited I am that Andrey is allowing these educational threads to take place. I feel that there is tremendous potential benefit to the consumer in being allowed to hear facts and to know about the processes that are bringing these "gems" to market whether or not the majority of the industry like it one whit.

    These are interesting times, and this should be an interesting thread.

    Wink
     
  7. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    4,741
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    by diagem » Jun 11, 2008
    Thank you Andrey...

    Finally someone seems to understand that ignoring this subject will not help any...

    Nice to see Pricescope giving a producer of man-made Diamonds a stage to sound and be heard...[​IMG][​IMG]


    Seems like loads of ears are open and awaiting...[​IMG]
     
  8. Clark McEwen
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    64
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    by Clark McEwen » Jun 11, 2008
    All,

    I have no issues with answering your questions as long as doing so complies with the rules of this board.

    Also, I know that you will cut me some slack here if I am a little slow in responding as I am trying to run and continue to grow a business here. As Paul and others can attest to I am a very open/transparent individual and enjoy sharing the knowledge that I have gained as well as my opinions. It is now up to the administrator....Andrey??

    Cheers,
     
  9. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    4,741
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    by diagem » Jun 11, 2008

    I thought I ask this question in the relevant thread...





    Date: 6/11/2008 3:17:51 PM
    Author: Clark McEwen
    "...Carbon is carbon and once it has crystallized into diamond there is (currently) no way to determine it''s source."

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Author: DiaGem

    Hello Clark,

    Welcome...


    Sorry if I am too straight forward...
    Laboratories like (for example) GIA, IGI, HRD etc..., have no way to determine it''s source? Like in "is it natural or man-made?


    Antique Diamond-Gem.
     
  10. Wink
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    6,387
    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    by Wink » Jun 11, 2008
    Play nice! You know he is referring to the dead relative source of carbon issue. He clearly knows that the gems are identifiable as synthetic and has not made any claims to the contrary. Let''s give him some respect and a little slack until he learns how we play the games here. He will soon learn that some people love to look for any possible misinterpretation and then nail the poster to the wall, but let''s get him to like Pricescope just a little before we try to bury him...

    Wink
     
  11. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    4,741
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    by diagem » Jun 11, 2008
    I hear ya Wink...,

    I am realy looking forward to listening..., as I truly think it is important for us to listen and learn......

    But seriously..., I read what I read and I comment...., but..., maybe I read it wrongly or naively..., perhaps you can explain to me better...
     
  12. Clark McEwen
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    64
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    by Clark McEwen » Jun 11, 2008
    I did answer this question on the other thread but will do so here as well....

    My answer was pertaining to determining the source of the carbon not the source of the crystal. With the proper equipment all labs can look at the crystal structure or growth patterns in a diamond and identify it''s origin. Lab-grown diamonds have very regular and consistent growth while mined diamonds are irregular and inconsistent. Having said that, todays technology can only identify todays technology so as crystal growth technology advances so will the need for new identification equipment.
     
  13. Clark McEwen
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    64
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    by Clark McEwen » Jun 11, 2008
    Its all a matter of perspective and what your biases may be. If you read it again you will clearly see that the comment about not being able to determine the source was referring to the carbon and NOT the resulting diamond
     
  14. Clark McEwen
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    64
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    by Clark McEwen » Jun 11, 2008
    Thank you for your support Wink but not to worry...after 25 years in the diamond business I''ve seen and heard it all and had to deal with all types...this is child''s play compared to looking down the barrel of an AK47 with a 12 year old on the other end![​IMG][​IMG]
     
  15. strmrdr
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    23,295
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2003
    by strmrdr » Jun 11, 2008
    Can we all play nice please?

    English is not the first language of everyone who posts here and its a good idea to give people the benefit of the doubt when communication errors occur.
     
  16. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    4,741
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    by diagem » Jun 11, 2008
    Based on your writing..., I see you are used to sitting on the defensive seat..., I can imagine it is understandable...

    I will thank you for the answer again as I did in the other thread..., I guess I should have read it the way you wanted me too (or presumed I will...)

    I asked the question genuinely...,

    But will not ask more!
     
  17. Wink
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    6,387
    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    by Wink » Jun 11, 2008
    I seriously doubt I could do as well in my third (or is it fourth) language as you do. I was just yanking your chain a little and apologise if that was less obvious than it should be. The clue was when I suggested we suck him into the fold a little before we tried to bury him. Looks like he is prepared to hold his own though, just like you do. Me thinks some of you furriners is tougher than you looks!

    I hope you come to Vegas one of these years, you would fit right in our group of Pricescopers that hang out together.

    Wink
     
  18. John Pollard
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    3,181
    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    by John Pollard » Jun 11, 2008
    Hey. Are you calling DG dysfunctional? [​IMG]
     
  19. Clark McEwen
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    64
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    by Clark McEwen » Jun 11, 2008
    I''m not defensive at all and I certainly didn''t mean for it to come across that way...the reality is I have stared down the barrel of an AK47...welcome to Africa, have a nice visit!! Feel free to ask away!
     
  20. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    4,741
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    by diagem » Jun 12, 2008
    I guess you came to the conclusion that growing Diamonds at the factory located in a western civilized region is safer than trekking the African bushes for the Natural ones...[​IMG][​IMG]

    There is still a question pending (from yesterday) on the other thread...

    Feel free to answer...[​IMG], but remember..., the majority of readers here on PS are not professionals..., please do take it into account when answering...[​IMG]
     
  21. strmrdr
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    23,295
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2003
    by strmrdr » Jun 12, 2008
    I just saw this post I must have missed it earlier.
    I ran the questions by Andrey before asking them, as long as the answers are about the industry and not a sales pitch for MMD or you it is ok for you to answer.
    In the other thread you have been doing great walking the line so if they are answered in the same manner it will be ok.
    What I am looking for is a state of the mmd market and where you see the future going with them.
     
  22. denverappraiser
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    8,172
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    by denverappraiser » Jun 12, 2008
    Clark,

    I would like to add a question to the list please. Many of the people I talk to about this topic are surprised at the prices of MMD’s. They generally expected them to be less expensive. From your description of the process, it seems like the costs of consumable supplies and even labor is relatively low and that the bulk of the costs have to do with recovering research costs and the wear and tear on some fairly expensive equipment. This is no problem and I don’t mean to suggest that your prices are too high but manmade diamonds are a relatively new industry and other industries with this sort of business model, microchips and pharmaceuticals come to mind, seem to have a pattern of both lowering prices and increasing product quality over time. Presumably your R&D staff is working on this as we type. Sometimes these changes are both rapid and quite dramatic but it seems that the engineers always seem to make at least slow progress. Is it your expectation that man made diamonds will follow this pattern and we can look forward to ‘better’ products, whatever the marketplace may mean by that, and lower prices in the relatively near future?

    Neil Beaty
    GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
    Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver
     
  23. psadmin
    Administrator
    Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,054
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2008
    by psadmin » Jun 12, 2008
    Just to clarify to everyone. For educational purposes this thread has been given approval.

    Clark thank you for taking your time to educate us.
     
  24. Clark McEwen
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    64
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    by Clark McEwen » Jun 12, 2008
    Thank you for the approval to educate, I''ll do my best to answer any questions poised.
     
  25. Wink
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    6,387
    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    by Wink » Jun 12, 2008
    Thank you Neil for using the translation of MMD also, now I do not have to embarrass myself asking you or Storm what it means. Being a former Marine you would think I know a good acronym when I see it, but maybe it is just that I don''t think I have ever seen a GOOD acronym.

    Wink who does use H&A because he is a slow typer...
     
  26. Clark McEwen
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    64
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    by Clark McEwen » Jun 12, 2008
    I just saw this post I must have missed it earlier.

    I ran the questions by Andrey before asking them, as long as the answers are about the industry and not a sales pitch for MMD or you it is ok for you to answer.

    In the other thread you have been doing great walking the line so if they are answered in the same manner it will be ok.

    What I am looking for is a state of the mmd market and where you see the future going with them.




    [/quote]
    Hi Storm,

    Im great believer in educating and informing and I let the product sell speak for itself. Sometimes you need to go into detail with regards to the current state of the company, it''s history or the product itself but I try really hard to not make it a "sales" pitch. Having said that your questions will require for me to spend some time on them so please be patient....I will answer them!

    Cheers,
    Clark
     
  27. Clark McEwen
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    64
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    by Clark McEwen » Jun 12, 2008
    Hi Neil,

    I would like to clarify a few things...this process is not inexpensive. Forget about recouping the cost of R&D and development the capital costs and the ongoing costs of operations are immense. You are correct in your assumption that labor is a relatively small part of the overall equation but there is an awful lot more that goes into the "core" (or consumables as you put it) than just a carbon source. This makes our cost of materials per run quite high. One must remember that man has been growing diamonds since the 1950''s and produced larger gem quality diamonds as early as the 70''s but still couldn''t grow them economically...they simply cost more to grow than they could be sold for. Even today there are companies claiming to produce gem quality diamonds and you know what...they are...but very very few of these companies are actually doing it with any kind of scale or profitably.

    The idea that the cost will come down over time is also a misnomer. Unlike microchips, pharmaceuticals or DVD players where a large portion of the price reflects years or decades of R&D but has little baring on the cost of production the fact remains that our production costs are high. Sure we will pick up some economies of scale but as you have astutely observed we aren''t going to pickup a lot by moving the facility to India or China or automating the production as a DVD player producer may.

    Our scientists and engineers are constantly working on improvement and expansion of the process and product line. I expect to see a wider range of diamonds offered but at the rate that mined diamond supplies are being depleted (and I know this first hand from my days at BHP Billiton) there are massive price increases coming for the mined product so I wouldn''t see our diamond decreasing in price anytime soon.

    Remember the supply of gem quality lab-grown diamonds into the market is relatively small and will be for the foreseeable future, it is currently less that 1/10 of one percent of the yearly mined production. We have a long way to go!

    I hope that somewhere in there I answered your question

    Cheers,
    Clark
     
  28. Clark McEwen
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    64
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    by Clark McEwen » Jun 12, 2008

    1) I see Lab-grown diamonds actually growing the overall diamond market by augmenting the supply of mined goods. There are and always will be shortages in specific areas and I think this is where Lab-grown diamonds can fill a need. The Gemesis model is to offer diamonds to the market that aren''t readily available in sufficient quantities from the mined supply. Although we can grow all color (including colorless) we are currently limiting our commercial offering to fancy colors due to their increasing popularity. Having said that we see the growing gap between supply and demand and the looming shortages in larger better colorless goods and will be offering those to the market when the time is appropriate.

    2) Ten years from now I believe that Lab-grown diamonds will simply be viewed as diamonds from a different origin...Canada, Russia, Botswana and Sarasota! Will the prices be comparable...probably not...just as Canadian diamonds currently fetch a premium over other origins each diamond source will have it''s price (determined by the consumer of course!)

    3) I briefly touched on pricing in my answer to Neil. I will add to that by saying the consumer will be the one that will ultimately set the price for all diamonds based on each products value proposition. I do think that the price of mined and Lab-grown diamonds are linked and if one or the other was to go up or down the other would follow.

    4) I won''t get too technical but will try to explain in a way that all can understand. There are currently two processes used to grow diamonds...HPHT (high pressure high temperature)and CVD (chemical vapor deposition). HPHT simply recreates or emulates the environment that exisists approx 100 miles below the earths surface and when you put carbon into this environment just as in nature diamond crystals grow. CVD is the process of depositing a layer of diamond onto a wafer or substrate. Carbon laden gas is passed through a microwave causing it to vaporize or "rain" down onto the substrate. The main difference between the final product is with HPHT the resulting crystal is a truncated octahedron whereas a CVD crystal is a plate or wafer.

    5)As I mentioned in question #1 the opportunity goes far beyond the rising price of mined diamonds...it is in supplying the market with what the market is looking for but can not find.

    6) The capital costs are immense...I''ve heard different predictions...KPMG says 12%... BHPB says 5-7%...but over time I can see Lab-grown diamonds making up 10-15% of the diamond market...anyway that you look at it is a large number.

    Please let me know if I''ve left any gaps!

    Cheers,
    Clark
     
  29. denverappraiser
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
    8,172
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    by denverappraiser » Jun 12, 2008
    Clark,

    Thank you for your always eloquent answers. Again, I’m not being critical of your pricing structure, only trying to understand it. As I’m sure you know, with mined diamonds the price climbs rather steeply as a function of size up to a really stratospheric level. With synthetics this curve seems to be far less dramatic but availability of sizes over, say, two carats seems to be very low regardless of price and very large stones seem to be completely unavailable. Can I presume this is because of technical difficulties associated with growing very large stones rather than a marketing issue of smaller stones being easier to sell? Can we expect to see larger stones being produced as this gets worked out?

    I remember reading somewhere that there was a concern over the stones used as a seed in growing synthetics because these needed to be a quite specific type of mined diamonds and that they were becoming increasingly difficult to acquire because the mining companies, at least some of them, were wishing to make things hard for you. Is this correct? if so, has it been resolved?

    Neil Beaty
    GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
    Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver
     
  30. Clark McEwen
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    64
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    by Clark McEwen » Jun 12, 2008
    Hi Neil,

    I have to starting paying closer attention to how I am saying things....from the sounds of it everybody thinks that I being defensive...I can assure not a defensive bone in my body.[​IMG]

    Now on to answering your questions.

    As usual your assumptions are right just as with natural rough diamond crystals the larger we grow them the more chance there is of them being imperfect. And just as with natural stones the larger and cleaner they are...the pricier they are. Our current production of rough diamond crystals averages +-3.00cts (the sweet spot for polished being 0.75 - 2.00) but we do grow stones up to 7.00cts (3.00-4.00cts polished). We have purposely avoided growing smaller stones due to the fact these are and always will be readily available from a natural source...why would we want to play in the crowed end of the pool?

    We have no problems getting seeds...as I mentioned in the last paragraph smaller natural stones will always be in ample supply. What you may be referring to is the CVD producers who need a certain type of seed and often have difficulty getting them.

    And I know that you like pictures so please enjoy!

    Cheers,
    Clark

    GemesisAllColors.jpg
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page