Question for the musicians out there

[LLJsmom]

It has been years since I've seated myself at a piano to play any chords, so my experience is very limited. My question is about my son who is 14 and has taken up the piano with a vengeance. He started following videos on YouTube to learn all manner of pieces. He follows the hand videos and plays them over and over until he memorizes it. We started himwith lessons with my old piano teacher who is very traditional so at least he can learn to read music. She taught me all my scales and I progressed book by book. I was never diligent but practiced the day of my lesson. He seems to love playing and does so on his own but is not very interested in practicing his beginner because pieces and instead learns off YouTube. I know that with the proliferation of instructional videos on YouTube you can learn all kinds of stuff. I haven't forced him to practice his lesson material. He does so only when he feels like it. For regular musicians, what do you think are the pros and cons of that? I have no aspirations for him to do anything more with it than for it to be a source of enjoyment and relaxation. I just learned in such a different way that I'm just curious. Thanks for any thoughts you may have.

 

[jordyonbass]

He obviously wants to learn but doesn't like the idea of being in another learning environment. Here's what you should try and do; ask him if he wants to learn properly and remove his bad habits so he can play anything he wants. If he is genuine about playing the piano then this will get his attention. You will also want to find a teacher who is understanding of what he wants so that it's enjoyable for him and he feels he is getting what he wants.

For me, removing bad habits is the biggest appeal of going to a bass tutor. I just don't have the time and while I am self-taught, I have been playing for 13 years and over time I've developed a style where I use certain accents and scales in my writing. They're different instruments though and require different approaches

 

[azstonie]

Professional musician here, USC. Let his teacher handle the issue of practicing with him, its part of the student-teacher relationship and 'contract,' if you will. The parental role is to drive and pay.

 

[monarch64]

He's playing for pleasure and most likely by ear. If he only cares to play for pleasure, then throughout his life he'll figure out whether he wants to develop his skills further. Or he won't. Right now he's doing it his way and at that age I think it's important to just let him be.

I was classically trained since the age of 6. I quit lessons altogether when I was 16 but continued to play for the high school orchestra and for pay outside school. At this point in my life it's a source of anxiety. Too much time spent being competitive and obsessive over it. So for your son I'd say let him discover on his own whether he wants to play for simple pleasure or if he wants more training.

 

[t-c]

I am the worst musician in the world -- no talent at all -- but I do remember being a student, so my post is based on that.

I would encourage him to learn to read music rather than memorizing finger positions, but other than that, let him (with his teacher's guidance) develop on his own. Nothing kills a person's enthusiasm than being forced.

One thing to consider is this teacher and his/her style might not be compatible with your son's goals. My instruction was traditional, all classical music and I liked it ,but I had friends who were taught the popular music. So maybe get a teacher who isn't so concerned with the sequence of lessons, but is willing to work with your son on the pieces he's interested in learning while teaching him correct techniques.

 

[LLJsmom]

Thank you everyone. I see different people have different perspectives given their individual history. For now, I will let him play how he likes. We're on top of him for too many other things in his life, school work, extra-curriculars, martial arts, not being a usual irresponsible teen, . I'm glad he's spending more time on the piano than playing online games. The piano teacher will deal with his practicing or lack thereof. It's an easy part time gig for her anyway, and past retirement age. If dumb parents like us will pay her for supervised practicing, so be it. Maybe I will buy some sheet music to the songs he likes to play and then give it to him to take to his lesson. And honestly, I don't have the energy to add another thing to the bitch list.

 

[VRBeauty]

My nephew taught himself piano and flute. When I gave him money for music lessons one Christmas, he surprised me by opting for voice lessons. He enjoyed the music enough to major in music on college (he's now a junior)... where he's had to take theory etc. So no real advice, except that if he loves/enjoys the music enough to pursue it, he'll encounter the need to get the basics on his own.

 

[Puppmom]

Hi, there. DH is a guitarist. When he expressed interest, his parents insisted on lessons (he was 6). He hated lessons and practicing his lesson material so he quit playing altogether. When he decided years later to play again his parents insisted lessons were necessary. He wanted to play badly enough that he took the lessons.

In his late teens he started a band with friends. They played together for 15 years (a few of those professionally). One of the members was self taught and played by ear. He couldn't even read music. And, in DH's opinion, that really allowed his natural talent to shine. At 40, DH still plays everyday but sometimes expresses his regret over formal training. He very much enjoys the artistic part of playing and feels stifled by having all the "rules" pounded into him.

Music is a beautiful thing and can be such a valuable outlet for those who love creating it. In my opinion, you should take his lead. Let him make of it what he wants.

 

[kenny]

I'm self taught on guitar (not via Youtube, via vinyl albums in the 60s).

Around age 40 I began 'proper' lessons on piano with (ultimately, arguably) one of the highest level piano teachers in the US, rather, in the world.
Today I teach guitar ... not classical.

My personal experience with both approaches leaves me totally torn, so I cannot answer the OP's question.
Much depends on the learner, the musical genre (s)he expects to play, the quality of the teacher, the match between the teacher and student, and of course the parents.

I'll say this though, you are NOT going to reach the highest levels of classical music, and perhaps jazz, if self-taught.
Simpler music? Maybe. It depends.

 

[missy]

I'm self taught on guitar (not via Youtube, via vinyl albums in the 60s).

Around age 40 I began 'proper' lessons on piano with (ultimately, arguably) one of the highest level piano teachers in the US, rather, in the world.
Today I teach guitar ... not classical.

My personal experience with both approaches leaves me totally torn, so I cannot answer the OP's question.
Much depends on the learner, the musical genre (s)he expects to play, the quality of the teacher, the match between the teacher and student, and of course the parents.

I'll say this though, you are NOT going to reach the highest levels of classical music, and perhaps jazz, if self-taught.
Simpler music? Maybe. It depends.

Yes. I agree with all of this.

FWIW I took professional lessons as a youngster for over a decade (piano/organ and clarinet) and played First Clarinet in my High School band and played First Clarinet in the All Boro Band for years and we played at Carnegie Hall a few times too. Did I enjoy it? That is a difficult question to answer. Sometimes I did but I hated practicing and now I don't play any musical instruments and part of it is because of the organized lessons and practice sessions I was forced to endure.

So looking back (and hindsight is 20/20 right?) I say let L be free and enjoy and if he wants to do it more by the book then great but if he doesn't let him be and let him enjoy it for what it is worth to him. As you said he (probably) isn't going to be a professional musician and he has enough things he must do so let this be something that he just *wants* to do with no strings (haha get it) attached.

 

[LLJsmom]

Yes. I agree with all of this.

FWIW I took professional lessons as a youngster for over a decade (piano/organ and clarinet) and played First Clarinet in my High School band and played First Clarinet in the All Boro Band for years and we played at Carnegie Hall a few times too. Did I enjoy it? That is a difficult question to answer. Sometimes I did but I hated practicing and now I don't play any musical instruments and part of it is because of the organized lessons and practice sessions I was forced to endure.

So looking back (and hindsight is 20/20 right?) I say let L be free and enjoy and if he wants to do it more by the book then great but if he doesn't let him be and let him enjoy it for what it is worth to him. As you said he (probably) isn't going to be a professional musician and he has enough things he must do so let this be something that he just *wants* to do with no strings (haha get it) attached.

Thank you Missy!!! Love that!!

 

[LLJsmom]

Thank you to everyone who replied. I appreciate all the different stories and experiences. It makes it so clear to me that every person is truly different. I understand and respect that.
I've had a several days to reflect on my own experience. I also learned in a traditional way, learning all my scales and playing only pieces taught by my teacher. I didn't enjoy t unless I happened to like a piece I had to play. Given that my son is really into it I printed some sheet music to the popular songs he was playing and sat down myself. Here comes the epiphany. I found I could actually figure out where to place my fingers on the piano keys. And even though I am butchering Mia and Sebastian's theme I am really enjoying practicing. My poor son is doing the trial and error method. I am so glad I learned where the spaces and lines are so I can actually play these songs, so I really do see the value of a traditional teacher. I also see the importance of letting them enjoy. So I will keep sending him to lessons. He will learn what he learns. It's not a strict teacher anyway so it's mostly supervised practice. And I will let him keep playing around with the songs he likes and keep buying sheet music of this songs to tempt him to actually play the songs correctly, while I fight him for piano time.

 

[LLJsmom]

Professional musician here, USC. Let his teacher handle the issue of practicing with him, its part of the student-teacher relationship and 'contract,' if you will. The parental role is to drive and pay.

Isn't that the truth?!?

 

[Logan Sapphire]

I have no musical talent whatsoever (sad!), but my sister recently married a man who is a professional pianist- he's on the faculty of a local university and is the ballpark organist for an MLB team. He can play both by ear (has perfect pitch) and obviously can read music. I know he's talked about one of his younger students who has a lot of trouble reading music and he felt like that held her back a little bit.

 

[TooPatient]

Look around and find a good teacher who does the basics but in a way that keeps his interest. There are piano teachers out there who take the popular music and teach music using that. Works better for some.
Also, to be in any school group, he will need to know to read music and scales and all that.

 

[Akalahab]

This is an older thread but thought I'd give me two cents anyway.

It sounds to me like this teacher is just not a good fit for your son. I would normally speak to the teacher, but it sounds like you took lessons and didn't feel motivated either. There are other teachers and music programs that might be a better fit for your son. The most motivational for kids is usually a program where they can play with and see other kids practicing and progressing - the Bay Area would have some of those - you have the SF conservatory and Stanford. Parents are crucial to kid's music lessons as they are to any schooling - if a child was getting an F in a class, parents will usually do something about it. Music is not anything different from any subject that a kid is going to just be "motivated." Teachers and parents need to be working together.

I teach on the side myself and wouldn't teach a student who didn't work anything I said. Would be a waste of my time and energy and someone else's money. Plus, I don't feel a responsibility just to make someone learn notes, but teach important life lessons on how to be a responsible, conscientious, and decent person in any area in life and put in work even when one doesn't feel like it. Saying it is okay for a student not to do the work every week is not a message I want to be imparting to anyone.

For me, teaching isn't a get rich scheme, it is like volunteer work to me...much like some people like helping others find diamonds here on Pricescope and get frustrated when an OP doesn't listen. Teaching in no way compensates for the 20 plus something years and countless hours spent, the 9 years of college, the traveling to study with the best in the nation, and the mental toll it takes to study with some of the more abrasive personalities. I did it because I had the ability to preserve something beautiful and I wanted to pass this on to other generations. I would do it for free except then nobody would value their lesson time, unfortunately, so I actually charge an amount that will actually seem substantial enough to student's parents not to be wasting and it serves as a deterrent to those who are just going to waste my time.

Most other teachers I know in the area are happy to just take a paycheck and do the customer service thing. Most people won't know the difference- Much like your mall BM jewelry store. They have no idea what they are doing, don't know they have no idea, and of course don't know how to teach the thing they don't know. Good teachers are hard to find bc the majority of bad teaching just perpetuates more of it but they do exist!

 

[SylviaF]

I totally agree with the post above. Both my girls take piano lessons, and it took us over a year of trial and error to find the right teacher. My oldest sounds exactly like your son, she started lessons at 13 years old, and once she found the right teacher, she took off in her progress like a comet. She was unsure she wanted to take lessons at first, and was doing mostly YouTube videos. We kissed a lot of fronts before we found our current teacher. He does this full time, he is the president of a local music association, it is evident that he loves what he does. He is so considerate and respectful of my girls wishes, always considering their input on the songs they want to work on. My girls feel like they are in control of their learning and are super confident now.

 

[AGBF]

I read this thread without really planning to respond to it. I am hardly a musician, but I love music. I studied the piano for a few years as a child and was involved in choral singing in school. My daughter, when she was young, before her mental illness impaired her, had a lot of musical ability. As a child she studied the piano; the cello; the clarinet; the saxophone; and the violin. (She never wanted to sing and never joined a school chorus.)

In my opinion there is playing serious music with other musicians who depend on you and there is playing and singing for the joy of it. Both are good. If one is playing with others, he has to play in a way they can depend on. If they are playing in a "classic" way, reading notes and following a conductor, he must do so, too, or he will let others down. If they are "jamming" in a certain style, he can do something that works with their style. But if music is just being sung or played spontaneously, it does not need to be regulated. Many people who are not trained sing and play beautifully.

Just my two cents.

Deb

 

[House Cat]

My 12 year old son played trombone. Now, he plays bass in school band but his first love is guitar.

I looked on Yelp for the "best" guitar teacher I could find and contacted him. Our first conversation was very honest about my son, his music abilities and his goals. My 12 year old has an acoustic guitar but he doesn't currently want to learn that style of music. He wants to learn on his electric guitar. This teacher responded with "it will be fun and refreshing to teach someone in the rock style."

They have been having a blast making music ever since.

What I am trying to say is finding a teacher that has the right attitude that can inspire your child, might make all the difference in the world.

I have had drill instructor type choir instructors and I have had soft and lovely types. It was my first instructor, in fourth grade who played guitar and was like Carley Simon, who inspired me to sing for the rest of my school career and beyond.

 

[yennyfire]

Professional musician here, USC. Let his teacher handle the issue of practicing with him, its part of the student-teacher relationship and 'contract,' if you will. The parental role is to drive and pay.

I'm so glad to hear you say this! My 10 year old DD really dislikes that we make her take piano lessons, but we've told her that if she wants us to pay for horseback lessons and equestrian shows, she must play. Thanks for the positive reinforcement and apologies for the slight threadjack. I guess my advice is if it comes down to playing "his" way or not at all, I'd leave him be. Hopefully, hisctewcher can help him realize the importance of the basics and proper technique from the beginning rather than undoing bad habits later on...

 

[Akalahab]

I just really disagree with the drive and pay thing. I've been to a lot of pedagogy workshops and every one emphasizes that the parents and teachers have to be working together. It drives serious teachers crazy.

If a child doesn't want to learn the teacher's way it is not a good fit. Not right or wrong but simply teacher and child just don't gel. Teachers have a preferred way of teaching and it is impossible for a teacher to be everyone's style as there are a limited number of years in life and to develop one's method takes a lot of years of experience and time let alone developing multiple methods. If a kid is doing his own thing, it really is a waste of money and time and also going to just kill a child's motivation. Top notch teachers send kids elsewhere all the time simply because the child is wanting to learn in a style that a teacher just isn't versed in teaching.

 

[Akalahab]

Parents need to be using these lessons as an opportunity to explain what is to be respectful and appreciative of someone's time, knowledge, and effort and also that time is a gift that we can use doing worthwhile things (or look back and see that we have wasted it), guiding them to put in work each day to realize what they can achieve with a good work ethic. Any child can accomplish so much and this is an opportunity to really help them see this in a very tangible way.

YouTube is a terrible resource for learning music and I would be seriously upset if a student of mine just ignored what I said to watch some idiot on YouTube teach them the wrong thing. Any practicing you do creates a habit and sometimes these habits (bad ones that you can pick up on YouTube) can take years to undo.

You choose a teacher based on their perspective on having succeeded in a particular way to a particular level. Basically choose a teacher who plays the way you want to play because every musician is different and has different experiences and ways they used to get them to a certain place. Then you must trust the teacher to help you as they understand as fit having synthesized years of their personal experience.

If your teacher has not had a conversation about a child who is not doing any of the assignments, that is big red flag to me that they are just in it for a paycheck and not to see your child flourish. Yes, talking to parents is not fun sometimes but absolutely necessary and non confrontational types like me have to grow balls or else be drained or grow apathetic.

It works both ways - you cannot have either absent parents or indifferent teachers if you want to get the most out of lessons.

You can drive and pay if you want to drive your kid every single day to a teacher to have supervised practice and lessons but ONCE a week for 30 min to an hour does not make enough of an impact on a child whatsoever to make anyone "motivated" to do actual work. Because it is work. It isn't always fun but completely worth it for that sense of accomplishment and real sense of of purpose and confidence.

I am a professional musician, my stepfather is a professional musician - symphony musicians who constitute the top 1% of players and teachers in the nation. I have also seen how these "music schools/stores" operate on some business model that is no one's best interest but someone's pocket. I have also seen very entitled kids and parents who think they "pay" a teacher to babysit and teach their kids universal values that are actually the parents job to be teaching and enforcing at home. Your music teacher has 50 billion other kids to teach and cannot be expected to parent them.

It's great to hear that some of you are committed to keeping your kids in music lessons as the job of commitment does really lie with the parent as a child is still learning about the value of this and will wax and wane in desires and not understand the value of learning from the perspective that another person has.

Talk to your music teachers for advice if you are concerned that your child isn't getting a lot out of lessons for any reason at all. They can either change approach or give guidance about how to talk to your kids at home. Talk to your kids about respect of a teacher's time and your money. Explain to them that their teacher has valuable perspective that they can't benefit from if they are not able to do assignments and in fact, just go to YouTube to watch an unverified (usually very bad! I mean, what respectable teacher is going to be "teaching" on YouTube?) source that may conflict with their teacher's path for them. Use your researching prowess that brought you to pricescope to find great music teachers; there are also a few helpful books. Check out "Growing Up Again" - a book about nurture vs structure and finding a middle ground.

 

[LLJsmom]

I appreciate everyone's responses and realize that each person's opinion comes from individual perspectives and personal experiences. Thank you for sharing.

 

[PierreBear]

Hi LLJSmom! Hope you are doing well. What a wonderful mom you are to your DS to be so attentive and want him to grow and be successful in all avenues of his life. Just wanted to share that my parents wanted me to play piano because my other relatives were doing it. I was the youngest one and just had to follow suit. I didn't enjoy it and kept with lessons for a year with the intent of playing flute in the band. I do wonder though if I would have had a more open minded attitude and desire if my interested were developed more organically? Your DS might have more passion to learn songs via you-tube but he might not appreciate it until later on in life that he could read music and learn through the classical approach. But I'm just glad that there is passion regardless of the type of learning style! Keep up the great parenting!

 

[Akalahab]

I realize that sometimes this type of advice can be taken as offensive and I sincerely hope that nobody feels bad as a result. I know that parents care a lot about their kids and work very hard to give them the best and parenting is kind of a sensitive subject.

This book is far more versed in explaining than I am! It is great, not just for parents but for anyone who has been parented! So I will just leave the link here.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BS03FJY/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

 

[House Cat]

I need to say that there may be times when I might need to sit down with a parenting book and review some things I am doing with my son. That time will never, EVER be when he's gone onto YouTube to learn how to play a song!

 

[LLJsmom]

I realize that sometimes this type of advice can be taken as offensive and I sincerely hope that nobody feels bad as a result. I know that parents care a lot about their kids and work very hard to give them the best and parenting is kind of a sensitive subject.

This book is far more versed in explaining than I am! It is great, not just for parents but for anyone who has been parented! So I will just leave the link here.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BS03FJY/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

No, I'm not offended at all. I really can dissociate people's opinions from me. I don't take it personally. People believe what they believe because of who they are, what they have experienced and what their goals are. I am not that person. I have not experienced those things and I generally don't have the same goals, so I am pretty good at not internalizing. I will take what I agree with and discard what I don't. Nevertheless, I never know what may ring true to me so I am open to comments. I appreciate that people took the time and effort to share. Thank you PSers.

@Akalahab I feel like I should respond directly to you because you took the effort to write a long response. As you are a teacher yourself, I can understand why you have a very definite opinion about learning on You Tube. It has been a while since I wrote the original post, and since then, I am even more comfortable with the approach my son is taking. He has continued with his weekly lessons. I know he doesn't practice his teacher's music as much as he should, but he does some, and he is learning the basics of reading music. He continues to find music that he loves and downloads sheet music, and also listens to YouTube to learn the song as well. He is obsessed with Moon River right now, and has the whole family humming the tune, and the theme from Toy Story. Anyway, he really enjoys sitting at the piano, looking at the sheet music and struggling through it and practicing over and over.
My son is very busy with school, college test prep, sports, martial arts and volunteering activities. He has lots of pressure to be focused and to concentrate in every activity he does. Sitting at the piano playing, using whatever he has been able to learn/absorb from lessons, seems to be giving him lots of joy and relaxation. And it's so much better than on-line gaming, which is what many of his friends do.

I am convinced that at this time, this is how he is best served with piano lessons. I am going to let him go on as he goes on. The teacher is fine with it and is not too intense. If at some point she is unhappy with the situation, she is a grown adult and can tell me that she no longer will teach him. If that is the case, we will find a new teacher if he is still interested.

To address your comment about getting the most out of lessons, I guess I realize that I don't feel like he needs to get the "most" out of lessons. I am happy that he is learning some tools the read music, which allows him to pursue learning some pieces that he enjoys hearing and playing. That he goes around singing Moon River all day (and has learned the lyrics as well) makes me so happy. The next step is to show him the whole movie. He's big enough for it. And as for the teacher taking advantage of the situation, I am grateful that she imparts what she does, is chill about what he hasn't practiced sufficiently, and is still teaching. She's not a concert pianist, does not charge concert pianist prices, and he is never going to be become one. After reading so many posts, about matching the right teacher with the right student, strangely enough, I think we have a very good match. She's very competent, yet relaxed and close to retirement, and he's goofy and happy and not too disciplined but enjoys the piano. Just in responding to your post, I have come to realize that I will let him keep having fun and loving the music.

 

[LLJsmom]

Professional musician here, USC. Let his teacher handle the issue of practicing with him, its part of the student-teacher relationship and 'contract,' if you will. The parental role is to drive and pay.

Yes @azstonie it's seeming to work out that way. I just hope for him that it will be something that he can enjoy and be a source of decompressing as he goes through life. Better on his knees than running.

 

[Akalahab]

I need to say that there may be times when I might need to sit down with a parenting book and review some things I am doing with my son. That time will never, EVER be when he's gone onto YouTube to learn how to play a song!

As funny as that may be to you, the book suggestion (which isn't harmful either way) was in response to LLJ's question - the title of this thread. Many parents have similar questions and this book is recommended by many teachers (music and other subjects) to parents to answer those questions. I personally really like this book and even if someone isn't reading it "because of youtube" I still think it would help others in a similar situation.

The recommendation of this book is to provide support to kids in their choices in these situations - neither rigidity nor indulgence or neglect.

Youtube can be a good resource for listening to certain recordings, but just like the rest of the internet, there can be suggestions there that are not reliable. 70% of TOP violinists are injured and there is no way I would want my students to be exposed to harmful habits. If students want a video of something, I provide my own or I recommend one. If they want to learn from youtube, it would never be under my condonation. But youtube was never the main point in contention; the main bit here is regarding a student's ability to respect, appreciate, and flourish from having structure.

LLJ's son seems to just be listening to youtube, which is not as harmful as actually learning physical components from youtube.

@LLJsmom This is another great resource and only costs $250 a year (there's a promo code). http://artistworks.com/piano-lessons
These pianists are AMAZING top notch professionals and teach different styles of music, including jazz and pop. Students can watch their videos and send in their own for comments and suggestions (which come in the form of the teacher replying through video) Definitely check this out! You can sign up for free sample lessons. This teacher sounds like a great fit http://artistworks.com/piano-lessons-hugh-sung


And for any other parents: The job of the parent is not just to drop off and pay. I personally don't know ANY other professional musician who would ever recommend this.