pursuit of princess

[bestshot14]

Hi,

I''ve been roaming this site to absorb diamond information for a short while now and must say first what a site this is. I couldn''t imagine how I''d feel if I''d bought the stone first and found here after.

Anyway I''m hoping some of you might offer your points of view on what I''m looking at now. I''m quite set on the stone being ~1.5kt and quite set on spending about $5k for it. I absolutely respect that cut is vital, but to make this happen the upper crust just isn''t feasible at this point. Lots of years left for big upgrades.

Been through the GOG videos but still having trouble with analyzing diamonds on all merits. I have looked at squared cushions and other well-cut options, but haven''t seen the prices I need so I''m currently looking for the right princess, examples: (thanks if someone links these)

1 - http://www.pricescope.com/origin.asp?id=209655&sh=6&prc=4953
2 - http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=10387485&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=

Both appear to be fine with girdle and basic dynamics. The first is minutely larger but with both depth and table near equal in the low 70s, an H SI1. The second has the lower depth and higher table, an I VS1 and almost $300 cheaper.

To me, the latter is the far better deal, as an example.. I might try to find a similar but H colour option, but am I missing something? What do you all think? Anything else I should consider in this size/price range while satisfying the squarish shape?

I definitely plan to go the route of having the potential stone analyzed before purchase, so the certs may not be ideal here but I''d want any stone checked out before purchase anyway. I realize the stone won''t hold angles as perfectly as one might want, but with a fair candidate I think she''ll love what it is just the same. Although I can take it if you really have to tell me why I should change my sights, honesty is appreciated. Replies are appreciated!

Thanks,
Tom

 

[JulieN]

Date: 9/23/2009 5:54:37 PM
Author:bestshot14

but am I missing something? What do you all think?

Yes, what you're missing is that the grading report on these stones is from EGL Israel, which is notoriously lax in grading.

For your budget, you would have to make some kind of concessions.

You being set on 1.5 cts and 5K budget is very difficult.

 

[bestshot14]

Yes, what you''re missing is that the grading report on these stones is from EGL Israel, which is notoriously lax in grading.

I did get that vibe from my searching, but would that just affect the quality metrics or could a 1.50kt weight really be a 1.38kt, for example?

Thanks,

 

[jet2ks]

Date: 9/23/2009 7:25:13 PM
Author: bestshot14

Yes, what you're missing is that the grading report on these stones is from EGL Israel, which is notoriously lax in grading.

I did get that vibe from my searching, but would that just affect the quality metrics or could a 1.50kt weight really be a 1.38kt, for example?

Thanks,

No, the weight is an absolute. It is the human element of grading color and clarity that can be off by up to two grades. So the H SI1 could easily be graded J SI2 or even I1 by GIA or AGS and the I VS1 could be a J or K SI1 easily. Or they could be very accurately graded, it is a bit of a gamble on EGL grading, especially from the Israel lab. Getting an independent appraiser involved would help.

The other issue is that purchasing a princess by just the numbers is also a gamble, and a big one. In order to really judge a princess without being able to see it in person, you need high quality photos and ASET images. Just because the table and depth are in a certain range does nothing to guarantee a bright and lively diamond.

If you are already thinking about upgrades, why not purchase a well cut smaller stone from a vendor with a good upgrade policy and upgrade size later instead of trying to upgrade cut quality? Trying to find a 1.5ct for 5k will most likely lead to a poorly cut and performing stone. Personally, I don't care how big a diamond is if it doesn't sparkle like it should. A well cut stone will appear larger due to better light return than a poorly cut one.

 

[bestshot14]

No, the weight is an absolute. It is the human element of grading color and clarity that can be off by up to two grades. So the H SI1 could easily be graded J SI2 or even I1 by GIA or AGS and the I VS1 could be a J or K SI1 easily. Or they could be very accurately graded, it is a bit of a gamble on EGL grading, especially from the Israel lab. Getting an independent appraiser involved would help.

I had definitely figured with the EGL grading issues to expect that the stones would be overrated, but thanks for clarifying the common aspects to look out for. Rest assured I would definitely get an independent appraisal, agreed.

The other issue is that purchasing a princess by just the numbers is also a gamble, and a big one. In order to really judge a princess without being able to see it in person, you need high quality photos and ASET images. Just because the table and depth are in a certain range does nothing to guarantee a bright and lively diamond.

I was hoping there might be more to know about effective number combinations to help with screening, so that''s too bad. I''ll definitely take this into consideration...

If you are already thinking about upgrades, why not purchase a well cut smaller stone from a vendor with a good upgrade policy and upgrade size later instead of trying to upgrade cut quality? Trying to find a 1.5ct for 5k will most likely lead to a poorly cut and performing stone. Personally, I don''t care how big a diamond is if it doesn''t sparkle like it should. A well cut stone will appear larger due to better light return than a poorly cut one.

It''s funny I heard that question in my head when I was typing that comment in the first place. My prepared argument is that I believe the one-karat well-cut would not be as appreciated as the lesser-cut 1.5kt. After giving it to her, the guaranteed inevitable question will be what size it is, whereas my jargon to her about pavillion angles or table percentages wouldn''t add any effect. She''s bound to know as much about diamonds then as I did before PS. So it''s a dollar for enjoyment thing.

However! I agree with your logic and would concede that the better cut equals the better diamond, no question. You''d appreciate cut over size, but you''re educated on diamonds. My girlfriend and all the friends she''ll be showing it to, however, are likely not. Without side-by-side comparisons, hers would be the 1.5kt so even if her cousin''s ring sparkles more as a better cut 1kt, she''ll always have the "mine''s bigger".

Who splits hairs over nicer cut 1kts other than on this forum? Only if the diamond looks like garbage does the cut get scrutinized after the quick glances people give it, or if it happens to be shown to an impolite diamond expert. Not rich, have to take compromises/risks. Yet everyone undoubtedly splits hairs on weight; if a person knows one thing about diamonds it''s the word "karat". I think even some lesser performance would be easily justified by the fact that it''s a bigger stone and it''s gotta be harder to find a nicer cut in a bigger stone (true from a price perspective anyway). I''m not saying this is a sound rational argument, but I think it''s how the general (less educated) populus might feel.

I do feel, though, that to go from an okay cut 1.5 (say 5+ years later) to a very nice cut 1.5 would be a noticeable and very enjoyable upgrade. What if she doesn''t even want a bigger stone when we are looking to upgrade? I could always look at a slightly bigger H&A square cushion or some other awesome cut and it would be a super noticeable upgrade. The first ring is so significant and lots of girls in our younger age bracket have half-decent close-to-1kt.-if-not stones. I don''t think a superior cut would be appreciated superior to a superior size at this point, and I''d posit that the opposite is true. That''s the theory on young females as I see it anyway.

That being said, very good point on how a better cut, smaller diamond can appear larger than the worse cut, larger one as I have witnessed just that in person. I''m not sticky on the papers saying 1.50 when to the eye a lighter stone can appear virtually the same size when cut better, and that''s something I should be factoring in.

Thanks so much for your reply, it was really helpful!

 

[JulieN]

Date: 9/24/2009 1:55:35 AM
Author: bestshot14


I do feel, though, that to go from an okay cut 1.5 (say 5+ years later) to a very nice cut 1.5 would be a noticeable and very enjoyable upgrade. What if she doesn''t even want a bigger stone when we are looking to upgrade?

HAHA... I guess you''ve never heard of Diamond Shrinkage Syndrome (DSS.) There are over 3 million hits on Google for Diamond Shrinkage Syndrome.

You could do a well-cut 1.2-1.3 cts for your budget.

 

[stone-cold11]

One thing to note is that weight does not equal to face up dimensions.

A well cut diamond can have better face up dimension than a deep stone that is cut to save weight and will look much better. This is an image that shows that for a round brilliant cut.

<Both gems are the same diameter and could be cut from the rough diamond. The well cut diamond on the left weighs 0.84ct and the dull drab stone weighs 1.00ct. Because it is a carat it will sell for more.

From the knowledge article on carat weight.
http://diamonds.pricescope.com/carat.asp

 

[bestshot14]

HAHA... I guess you''ve never heard of Diamond Shrinkage Syndrome (DSS.) There are over 3 million hits on Google for Diamond Shrinkage Syndrome.

I thought the only shrinkage syndrome guys had to deal with was coming out of the pool?? lol you''re right though I had never heard about this affliction but it makes sense.. funny to read about. Hopefully I''ll have conquered a country in several years or such that I can afford both a cut and size upgrade!

I can totally look at 1.2 - 1.3 though, the better cut could optimize the size appearance so I have a 1.3 looking like a 1.4 instead of a 1.5 looking like a 1.4, for example. Sounds great to me. Thanks for the input...

 

[bestshot14]

One thing to note is that weight does not equal to face up dimensions.


A well cut diamond can have better face up dimension than a deep stone that is cut to save weight and will look much better.

Absolutely the unwanted depth or super thick girdle, etc., would add weight that does little for the stone''s face up value. I was hoping to crack the code on percentages to maximize this, so I could tell which princess cuts are likely to show larger/better than others before looking at having an ASET done on a candidate. I''ve read lots on table/depth and girdle and aspect combinations that are bad news for princess cuts, but it''s much harder to find out which combinations are likelier to be good. From what I''m hearing though you really have to see the stone to tell so I''ll keep reading in the meantime.

Thanks!

 

[jet2ks]

Check out this thread that has some initial screening numbers for fancy shapes.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/guidance-by-parameters-initial-screening-tools.118881/

Keep in mind that is just initial screening, it is not a guarantee of a well cut stone. Try to keep the table% less than the depth%, most well cut stones will have this. You can also look for an AGS0 princess. AGS is the only major lab issuing a cut grade for princess and they take into account proportions as well as light performance.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/24/2009 12:18:10 PM
Author: jet2ks
Check out this thread that has some initial screening numbers for fancy shapes.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/guidance-by-parameters-initial-screening-tools.118881/

Keep in mind that is just initial screening, it is not a guarantee of a well cut stone. Try to keep the table% less than the depth%, most well cut stones will have this. You can also look for an AGS0 princess. AGS is the only major lab issuing a cut grade for princess and they take into account proportions as well as light performance.

Good advice.

 

[bestshot14]

Check out this thread that has some initial screening numbers for fancy shapes.


https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/guidance-by-parameters-initial-screening-tools.118881/


Keep in mind that is just initial screening, it is not a guarantee of a well cut stone. Try to keep the table% less than the depth%, most well cut stones will have this. You can also look for an AGS0 princess. AGS is the only major lab issuing a cut grade for princess and they take into account proportions as well as light performance.

Thanks a lot for your reply, really helpful I hadn''t read that thread. I had figured an AGS-anything was out of my price range but maybe I''ll look into that further.

 

[jstarfireb]

Date: 9/24/2009 1:55:35 AM
Author: bestshot14
Who splits hairs over nicer cut 1kts other than on this forum? Only if the diamond looks like garbage does the cut get scrutinized after the quick glances people give it, or if it happens to be shown to an impolite diamond expert. Not rich, have to take compromises/risks.

The problem is that most "commercial quality" princess cuts do look like garbage. Princess cuts get a bad rap because of this, but it's true. Most princess cuts just look glassy, dead, lifeless...they don't sparkle and they don't "wow" people. Ideal cut princesses are a completely different animal; they give a round brilliant a run for its money when it comes to light return. That is why cut is crucially important for princesses even more so than for other shapes. AGS is the only lab that grades princesses on cut quality, and they do come with a price premium, so I would recommend looking for a GIA diamond from a place that offers photos and reflector images so we could help you judge the cut quality. James Allen for example would be a good place to start looking, as their prices are very competitive, and their customer service is good. Or perhaps consider searching for a round diamond, which can be better described by the numbers.

The other thing is that perhaps if your girlfriend learned a little bit more about diamonds, she may decide she wants to sacrifice some size for a better cut (=more sparkle, which is easily understood in "girlfriend-speak"). Give her a little credit - she may WANT to learn about this stuff! So many people who bought mall store diamonds or otherwise poorly cut, lifeless stones have come back to PS saying they regret their purchases, they don't like their rings, etc.

ETA: As for the ones you posted, I think the first linked me to a 0.91ct radiant, not a 1.50ct princess...and the second would be easily ruled out for me by the low depth and particularly the huge table.

 

[jstarfireb]

Here's the best I could find for you - you'd have to contact JA to ask for images, the GIA report, and see if it's eye-clean.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-SI1-Premium-Cut-Princess-Diamond-1244836.asp

Also there's this one, but it's over budget by a bit more than the first...but the picture looks promising:

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI1-Good-Cut-Princess-Diamond-1259798.asp

Ask for ASETs and make sure they're eye-clean. Hope that helps!

ETA: I should also mention that JA has an upgrade policy, though you have to get a diamond that's double the original cost.

 

[bestshot14]

Here''s the best I could find for you - you''d have to contact JA to ask for images, the GIA report, and see if it''s eye-clean.

Wow, thank you so much for pulling those up for me! Those two stones are great suggestions, even if I might be inclined to go a tiny bit smaller from a price perspective. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me, you''re wonderful.

Thanks,

 

[jstarfireb]

Aww, thanks! It''s too bad that they''re a bit over budget (couldn''t find anything under without compromising on size as well as cut). But if the budget is at all flexible, they could be great options.

And remember - sparkle wows a lady just as much as size does...take it from a girl with a gorgeous 1ct ideal sparkly princess!