Purchasing loose diamond - Questions about the process

[ConsumerWithQuestions]

Hi all,

**Accidentally posted in "diamond research" section, so I'm re-posting it here, which I've been told is the more appropriate forum. Thanks!**

Very excited to have discovered this online community. Anyway, I'm just getting started with this process, and figured I'd let you guys know my thoughts and see if anyone has any recommendations or advice about how best to proceed. From having incessantly scoured the internet over the last few days, it seems to me that buyers will get the most bang for their buck by purchasing loose stones or complete diamond rings online, as opposed to from local wholesalers/retailers. My tentative plan is to purchase a loose stone online, and then have it appraised and set by a local jeweler I can rely on throughout the future for cleaning and to make necessary repairs.

Just a heads up - Because I'm hell-bent on the element of surprise, I have not discussed diamond shape or ring setting with my girlfriend and don't plan on doing so. I will seek advice from her sister/best friend, but figured I'd solicit thoughts from the PriceScope community so that I'm as knowledgeable as possible before doing so.

- What I'm looking for - It seems as though round and princess cut diamonds are the default, so I'll probably go with one of these. As I said, my intention is to purchase a loose stone online and have it set locally. The minimum specifications I'm looking for are excellent cut, H color and VS2 visibility. I would like to purchase a ring in the 1.7-1.8 carat range. I want this to be a high quality diamond, but since size is somewhat significant, I want to be sure that I'm not spending unnecessarily on characteristics that may not be of the utmost importance. For example, I've been told that VS2 imperfections can never be detected without a microscope.

- Budget - I would prefer not to spend more than $15k. Is this price range realistic? From having looked at the GIA certificates of various stones being sold by online retailers, it seems feasible.

- Online retailers - B2cjewels.com seems to have fantastic prices, and based on online reviews, people seem thrilled with the quality of stones they've purchased. However, this company obviously isn't as main-stream as others (BN, Allen, etc.), so despite the great reviews, I am still slightly skeptical. Any thoughts? Are there alternatives that will suit my needs better?

- Location - I'm located in NYC. Since I'm buying online, I realize that this may not be completely relevant, but in case anyone has a good alternative in the diamond district or knows of a good jeweler to set the ring, I wanted to throw it out there.

- Setting - No idea here... I'll figure this out down the road.

Do you guys have any advice on my thoughts about the purchasing process? Specifically with respect to price range, minimum diamond characteristics, the decision to purchase a loose stone and have it set locally, and b2cjewels.com? I will take any advice I can get, and thank you all in advance.

Additionally, will round or princess typically be my best bet? Are there other shapes that are very popular today? My girlfriend is young-ish (late twenties) and is very fashion conscious, in case that helps at all. As far as setting goes, I realize that this is a bit premature, but if anyone has any recommendations, I am all ears.

Thanks again!

 

[mercoledi]

Hi, and welcome

It does sound like you've done your homework! You asked specifically about your preferred price range and specs.

I did a quick search on the PS tool, and ideal cut stones with your specs were about 15-17k. Keep in mind that these prices will generally be for wire transfer, so other forms of payment may raise the price, as can taxes based on your location, and shipping.

If you are looking to stay under 15k in that size range, either stick with H/VS2 and lean toward the smaller end of your size range, or drop the clarity to SI1. You're right that stones graded VS2 by a reputable agency (AGS/GIA) will only have inclusions visible under magnification, but most trusted vendors can also source you an SI1 or sometimes even an SI2 that is "eye-clean" and displays no visible inclusions without magnification. These stones either have inclusions that are clear in nature, or have many very small, distributed inclusions.

Regarding shape, round is classic, cushions are popular, and princess/radiants come in and out of style. If your girl is a bit of a fashionista, I would either stick with rounds or explore cushions with a trusted vendor like http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/.

I would also note that most people can't tell an H from an I, but you have to decide what color/clarity you are comfortable with.

A quick search found me these in/near your range. For stones that are in house, you can call the dealer and ask them if the inclusions are visible, what their opinion is, etc. I've worked with James Allan and many, many here can attest to Whiteflash. I haven't worked with B2cjewels and will let other weigh in.

https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-search-results/1993461

Use the HCA tool to evaluate the cut on the stones, and good luck!

 

[Gypsy]

My advice.

FILL THIS OUT FOR ME: (as completely as possible, and don't worry if your answers are long, the more detail the better).

1. What is your budget?
15k
2. How old are you guys?

3. What do she do for a living/working toward doing for a living.

4. How does she dress? Does she dress up a lot, or is she a jeans and T-shirts girl? Grundge? Tailored Ann Taylor tastes?

5. Does she prefer white metals or yellow/pinks ones

6. How is her house decorated? Does she love antique store trolling? Does she love everything Pottery Barn? Is she ultra modern with lots of metal and leather? Does she buy mostly new or preowned pieces?

7. Is she clumsy? Is she very put together?

8. Does she love handbags and have a stable of them to choose from? Are they mostly practical (neutral colors: brown, black, beige) or are there a lot of colors in there? Blue, purple, red?

9. What metro area are you in or near? Or are you in the country? Tell me where you live and what it's like there (if it's not obvious, like NYC).
NYC
10. Do you guys have pets? Want them? What kind?

11. Is she a brand name girl? Does she love things with brand names? If so why? Is it the dependability of brand name quality that appeals to her or is it the bragging rights? Or is she more understated and while she appreciates quality brand names don't do it for her? Does she buy retail (Neiman's, Saks, or does she buy from TJ Maxx and Outlets, mostly?)

12. Okay now, describe her to us in your own words? I've never met her, bring her to life me. What qualities does she have that you love? What is her sense of humor like? Just... tell us about her.

13. Has she expressed an interest in any particular style of ring (halo, Legacy, solitaire, three stone) or shape of stone (round, marquise, pear, princess, emerald, radiant.)? Or has she expressed a dislike for any styles?

14. What is her existing jewelry like? A lot of variety, or are there a few select pieces of similar design? What does she wear regularly?





Make an appointment at Engagement Rings Direct with Mark. Tell him PS sent you. Plan an hour.

Do the same with Yekutiel at ID Jewelry.

Ask them each to have three stones ready for you. After you answer the questions in the questionaire, I'll give you more guidance on what you should ask to see from each of them.



MAKE SURE ANYTHING YOU BUY HAS A FULL RETURN POLICY AND PROPOSE IN THAT WINDOW.

Now, after you answer the questions we'll be able to help you more.

 

[ConsumerWithQuestions]

Mercoledi - Thanks a ton for your response. As I said, I've done a fair amount of research online, but since I haven't really shopped around at all, I don't know much about what these diamonds actually look like and the extent to which color and clarity ratings actually make a difference. For example, the difference between VS2 and SI1 - how drastic is this? I know, it depends a ton on the stone and no two are the same. But if I'm buying online from a place that can't send me a virtual image, is it risky to go with something below VS2? With respect to color, at what level to you start seeing a noticeable difference? I definitely don't want it to look like I purchased a low quality stone just so that I could ramp up the size. Is H sufficient, or should I be aiming higher? Also, say that I wind up with a stone that is around 1.7 carats. I don't know a whole lot about diamonds and really can't picture what this looks like. Is this typically considered to be a good size? Will it look impressive or fairly small? From what I've read, it seems pretty solid, but I figured I'd through the question to the experts.

Gypsy - I'll fill out your questions as best as I can. Just out of curiosity, are you in the business? How did you develop your expertise? Regardless, any help I can get from any/all of you is greatly appreciated.

1. What is your budget?
- $15k for the stone, say $17k total. As I said, I'd like to have the ring set locally.

2. How old are you guys?
- Late twenties

3. What do she do for a living/working toward doing for a living.
- She is a professional in the corporate world

4. How does she dress? Does she dress up a lot, or is she a jeans and T-shirts girl? Grundge? Tailored Ann Taylor tastes?
- Not a jeans and T-shirt kind of girl. She wears relatively conservative clothing to work, and on her free time, she dresses simply but isn't preppy. Skinny jeans/pants and a trendy sweater during the winter, tank-top or short-sleeve shirt in the summer. Likes Theory, very into clothing.

5. Does she prefer white metals or yellow/pinks ones
- Honestly, no idea.

6. How is her house decorated? Does she love antique store trolling? Does she love everything Pottery Barn? Is she ultra modern with lots of metal and leather? Does she buy mostly new or preowned pieces?
- Our place is a hybrid of what I like and what she likes, but I'd say that she's more into classic style things. I'd imagine that the house of her dreams would have "old world charm," if that helps at all.

7. Is she clumsy? Is she very put together?
- Is it possible to be both? She's put together in the sense that she's into style, cares a great deal about her appearance, shops quite a bit, etc. She's clumsy in the sense that she breaks glasses in the kitchen and things like that, but I somehow feel like that isn't what you mean.

8. Does she love handbags and have a stable of them to choose from? Are they mostly practical (neutral colors: brown, black, beige) or are there a lot of colors in there? Blue, purple, red?
- Loves handbags/purses. Now that I think about it, they're virtually all practical - high quality leather with neutral tones.

9. What metro area are you in or near? Or are you in the country? Tell me where you live and what it's like there (if it's not obvious, like NYC).
- NYC

10. Do you guys have pets? Want them? What kind?
- We don't have pets, but definitely plan on getting a dog at some point over the course of the next few years. We both love dogs.

11. Is she a brand name girl? Does she love things with brand names? If so why? Is it the dependability of brand name quality that appeals to her or is it the bragging rights? Or is she more understated and while she appreciates quality brand names don't do it for her? Does she buy retail (Neiman's, Saks, or does she buy from TJ Maxx and Outlets, mostly?)
- She buys retail and is a "brand name girl" in the sense that most of her stuff comes from expensive labels. However, I know for a fact that she wouldn't care where the ring comes from - she's rather have a nicer ring I've had made rather than something from Tiffany's or Harry Winston. I think that she purchases brand items just because she's accustomed to having nice things and it has never really occurred to her to do otherwise. Not a snob.

12. Okay now, describe her to us in your own words? I've never met her, bring her to life me. What qualities does she have that you love? What is her sense of humor like? Just... tell us about her.
- Very bubbly and animated. Loves to laugh, is constantly joking around and poking fun at others (me), and doesn't take herself too seriously. At the same time, she's also insanely smart, and snaps into "academic" mode when a topic comes up that is within her intellectual wheelhouse. Very athletic - loves to run, play sports, hike, ride bikes on the weekend.

13. Has she expressed an interest in any particular style of ring (halo, Legacy, solitaire, three stone) or shape of stone (round, marquise, pear, princess, emerald, radiant.)? Or has she expressed a dislike for any styles?
- Never. I think I made it clear from pretty early on that the element of surprise is very important to me, so she's been good about keeping her preferences to herself. I know it seems silly, but it is important to me. She has also indicated that she trusts her sister - whom she idolizes - implicitly.

14. What is her existing jewelry like? A lot of variety, or are there a few select pieces of similar design? What does she wear regularly?
- Honestly, I'm not very perceptive here. She rotates out a few nice watches, and generally wears a necklace and a pair of earings. Other than that, I really don't know much though, because I don't notice this stuff unless she specifically asks me how something looks.

 

[TC1987]

COLOR: I'm going to argue that G-H is the lowest color you should go to in that size range, if you want to not see tint. "I" color is where most people can start to notice it, and a larger diamond like that will concentrate the color. If she likes warmer diamond colors and/or yellow gold or rose gold, sure, look all the way down to J-L or M colors. Tint is one of those things that you can learn to see with study.

SETTING: It is a lot smoother to have the diamond vendor set it. It takes maybe 6-8 weeks for a custom setting to be made. Have the vendor put it in a temp setting means you can insure it ASAP, present it to her, and get her input for how she wants it set.

CUT: Buy it for cut first. Seriously. All people can pick the best-cut diamond out of a lineup. Not all can tell what color or clarity it might be.

That said, your $15,000 budget for the diamond might not be high enough to get high color and that ct weight and ideal cut.

MAKE: I'd pick round over a princess. Rounds never go out of style. Princess seems to be fading in popularity, and also a princess really shows the tint, so an I color princess is definitely in the candlelight ivory range if viewed from the side. imo, at least.

For rounds, start with this:
depth: 60 - 62% (some allow up to 62.4%, but deeper = faces up smaller; shallow may appear dark up close due to head obstruction)
table: 54- 57% (I like 55-56%; some people will go up to 58%)
crown angle: 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle: 40.6 - 41 degrees
girdle: Look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium, etc. (Avoid extremes)
polish and symmetry - very good and above

Sift through the diamonds in your price range, plug the dimensions into the HCA (Holloway Cut Adviser) here under Tools. Look for a score of 2 or below for the best cuts. Possibly you can consider up to 3, but scores above 3 are in the dimension ranges where symmetry affects the look or character and the diamond might need to be seen. Below 2, they are a more homogenous and less quirky group, to make it overly simplified. lol

With crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34 - PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35 - PA 41), check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - use eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!

Pricescope has threads of useful links. You may or may not want to consult those.

Here's a dump from a text file that I keep. It's just a collection of stuff that I copied from various threads.

To help evaluate round diamonds sight-unseen, PE has various tools. Here's a starting point:

Holloway Cut Adviser. (HCA) https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
You can enter the numbers from the lab report or Sarin or the vendor's site and see if you get a score of 2 or less. Personally, I'd go for 2 or less HCA score, and a stone that falls squarely in the red zone that is fenced by both the AGS and the GIA fences. Reject anything over 2, since you appear to be going for top cut.

Pricescope has a general range of values to use as a starting point for evaluation diamonds. Some people will accept a table larger than 57% ,say up to 60-62%. Or a lower crown angle.

depth 60 - 62% (some allow up to 62.4%)
table 54- 57%
crown angle 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle 40.6 - 41 degrees

Pavilion angle
girdle: Look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium, etc. (Avoid extremes)
polish and symmetry - very good and above

Note: With crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34 - PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35 - PA 41), check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - use eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!
A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6, lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41, lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown

There are still individual nuances in diamonds. For example, how they are proportioned can result in a balance between fire and brilliance, or more bias toward either brilliance or fire. (You can search FIC, BIC, and TIC and read more in this forum.)
BIC Brilliant Ideal Cut -- Crown angle is less than 32.5° (has a shallow crown angle and probably a large table 58%-62% and might also be shallow like a 60/60 diamond 60% table and 60% depth)
TIC Tolkowsky Ideal Cut -- Crown angles between 32.5° and 35.5° (aimed for fire + brilliance, a good balance)
FIC Firey Ideal Cut -- Crown angle 35.5 degrees or greater (cut more for fire: small table, tall crown, might face up slightly small for it's weight and might appear "dark" due to more fire = less white light reflected back) [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/optimizing-fire-in-the-modern-rb-fiery-ideal-cut-fic-how-far-can-we-go-without-serious-detracting.134805/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/optimizing-fire-in-the-modern-rb-fiery-ideal-cut-fic-how-far-can-we-go-without-serious-detracting.134805/[/URL]

------------------------
Using the Holloway Cut Adviser:
Q: Could you please educate me on why the shallower one shows slightly better optical brilliance in the report? Also, shall I ignore the HCA score? The first scores 1.6 while the second (shallower) scores 0.6.
A: HCA scores of under 1 are on the shallow side and sometimes make better earring/pendant stones where they will not be seen up close.

 

[Gypsy]

Okay so here's my recommendation.


I think a round brilliant may be a great choice for her actually. She sounds like she has traditional decorating tastes, likes high quality items and appreciates finer details. I would say that getting a really nice platinum setting (if she likes white metals) might be a good idea.

I think it's great that you have set expectations with her regarding the ring being a surprise. But that's a lot of pressure on you.

I would ask her sister if she would be happy with a round brilliant. And make sure you consult her sister CLOSELY on any decisions regarding the setting. What she said about her sister is, in my opinion, her telling you to NOT GO OFF ALONE. That she is willing to honor your preferences to have everything be a surprises PROVIDED THAT you consult her sister. BEFORE YOU BUY.

So I really think you NEED to respect that. Make sure you send images of anything you are considering to her sister for approval. And what would be best is to have the sister send YOU recommendations of rings she thinks her sister likes and then you go out and find similar items.

I will also reiterate my recommendation for Mark at Engagement Rings Direct and Yekutiel at ID Jewelery.

I think it's REALLY important for you to ask her sister to send you images of rings she recommends. Then go from there. But that should be your first step.

After that, you might want snoop in her jewelry box. See what color metals she prefers? And take a couple pictures (cell phone) of the stuff in there so that you can show them to a jeweler? So that they can help you with her style (after you ask her sister for recommendations).

Someone who doesn't pay attention to her metal choices. Never notices her jewelry unless she forces you to should NOT go off alone and spend 17k on ANYTHING alone. That's just common sense. Get the sister involved. DEEPLY involved. That will tell her that you VALUE HER. And that's the whole point of this-- to show her you value her. The ring doesn't show that alone, the process does too.

 

[mercoledi]

I would agree with Gypsy. Based on what you said, a classic round is probably a good choice and it sounds like you might have a fantastic resource in her sister.

Since you're in NYC you have plenty of options for looking at diamonds. What you might want to do next is browse through the 'Show me the Bling' section to see a lot of different styles. Take note of any vendors that you particularly like.

Then spend some time looking at diamonds online. Good Old Gold has excellent video tutorials that will show you the difference in color, explain clarity, show relative sizes, etc. Their inventory stones have high res images, sarin and H&A images to get you familiar with what an excellent stone looks like online. http://www.goodoldgold.com/Diamond_Videos/ (scroll down, I promise the videos are better than the web layout might indicate)

When you feel confident, go see some diamonds! Both GOG and ERD are near you. Call to make an appointment, and have them pull stones for you to see in person. It will be far more informative for you than most of what we can provide virtually.

Size is a personal decision. Since you're in NYC the average size is going to be larger than what you see in middle America. If your lady works in finance or law, then the average size goes up again. Do you know her ring size?

 

[audball]

Gypsy nailed it.

 

[lyra]

I have to agree with Gypsy. Definitely do involve her sister, since that was very important to her.

It sounds like she may have told her sister more exactly what type of setting she would prefer, which might also include vital information such as diamond cut (round, cushion, princess) and preferred metal (platinum, white gold, yellow gold, rose gold, two-tone).

The people here can help you find a diamond that will suit your budget, and hopefully will be able to recommend a setting too that matches what you find out from her sister. Maybe she prefers something classic like a solitaire, which would mean you could allocate more of your budget on the diamond, less on the setting. It's crucial that you know what she'd like. We've seen women come on here (where their fiance did not follow their wishes) because they were disappointed in their engagement ring for one reason or another. Take as much guesswork out as possible--she'll really appreciate that since this is the ring she will wear for the rest of her life.

 

[iheartscience]

I have to agree with Gypsy. Definitely do involve her sister, since that was very important to her.

It sounds like she may have told her sister more exactly what type of setting she would prefer, which might also include vital information such as diamond cut (round, cushion, princess) and preferred metal (platinum, white gold, yellow gold, rose gold, two-tone).

The people here can help you find a diamond that will suit your budget, and hopefully will be able to recommend a setting too that matches what you find out from her sister. Maybe she prefers something classic like a solitaire, which would mean you could allocate more of your budget on the diamond, less on the setting. It's crucial that you know what she'd like. We've seen women come on here (where their fiance did not follow their wishes) because they were disappointed in their engagement ring for one reason or another. Take as much guesswork out as possible--she'll really appreciate that since this is the ring she will wear for the rest of her life.

Ditto both Gypsy and lyra.

It sounds like you're off to a great start with all the experts on Pricescope for diamond help, and her sister for style/shape help.

 

[ConsumerWithQuestions]

Thanks a ton to you all - I never imagined that this forum would be so useful.

Gypsy - You had mentioned that I should check with Mark at Engagement Rings Direct and Yekutiel at ID Jewelery. Another poster had recommended GOG (although I'm not quite sure what this is). I will definitely check these places out. Generally speaking, should I expect that their stones will be priced competitively with those sold online, or should I be going to these places (a) to get an idea of what is out there and (b) so that I have a reliable brick-and-mortar option in the event that I decide not to go the online route? Are there any other recommended places in NYC that tend to carry a good inventory at very competitive prices?

I hadn't really considered variables like depth, table and girdle, so I plan on spending a bit of time educating myself about these things as well. Thanks for alerting me to the fact that these are priorities.

In the event that I decide to buy a loose stone online and have it set locally, can anyone here recommend a good jeweler here?

Anyway, as the process moves forward, I have no doubt that I will have many more thoughts/questions for the group, so thanks a ton in advance, and I hope that you're all doing well.

 

[ConsumerWithQuestions]

ONE more thing. I've heard a whole lot lately from friends who have recently had rings made about the cushion cut. From looking online, it seems that inventory of these stones is quite a bit lower, but that you can get significantly better value. Are these very "in" now? If so, is this a transient phase, or is the cushion somewhat of a timeless alternative to the round cut?

 

[Gypsy]

All three vendors mentioned here are PS vendors, do internet sales, but also have showrooms either in Manhattan or Long Island. GOG is Good Old Gold.

I am getting the feeling you are the kind of person that gets the bit between their teeth, makes up their mind, then doesn't deviate from that. What I am saying is... if you decide to go with BC2 or WHOEVER you want, do so. BUT AFTER you have spent more time actually in a few jewelry stores. And to that end I've recommended the best places I know to educate you, that also have a great selection of settings and styles AND are known for excellent customer service.

IF you buy the stone at one place and get it set at another you WILL have to buy insurance for it before it is set. It's an extra step you need to be aware of. As the place doing the setting will not insure an 15k stone on a 2k setting deal. Doesn't make sense for them to.

Abotu cushions and rounds. You really do not know enough about diamonds to talk about comparative value. If you are talking about per carat weight price, it is true that cushions are somewhat lower priced than rounds. HOWEVER cushions are cut deeper so that a 2 carat cushion will look smaller than a 2 carat round. Also there are only two lines of cushions, to date, that are graded/tested for light performance by labs. Since light performance is what determines sparkle and shine and brilliance this is important to note. That is why comparing the process for buying cushions and rounds is like comparing apples and oranges. Those cushions that ARE graded for light performance cost about the same as a well cut round, once you get down to comparing spread. So, NO. Cushions are not a better value.

As to what shape you should get, or what is more classic. I would appreciate it if you would pay attention to the following:

IN YOUR OWN WORDS YOUR LADY IS:
very into clothing
cares a great deal about her appearance, shops quite a bit
loves handbags/purses

YOU ARE:
I'm not very perceptive


So... what does that mean. I KNOW it means a lot to you to pick out her ring. BUT YOU SHOULD NOT BE THE ONE DOING THIS INDEPENDENTLY.

This is a woman who CARES ABOUT HER MATERIAL POSSESSIONS. Loves accessories and spends HOURS picking out just the right ones. She spends time and energy on this. Now you are spending 17 THOUSAND on perhaps the MOST IMPORTANT accessory she will ever have, and item she will have to wear EVERY DAY. And you NEED TO TALK TO HER SISTER.

Ask HER SISTER if a cushion or round would be better. NOT US.

It is a personal choice. Also... how would you feel if you were told you could only have ONE CAR for the rest of your life? And you were told NOT TO GIVE YOUR OPINION ON IT, to keep it quiet, and then have your lady pick one out. Except she is "not into cars" and is "not very perceptive" when it comes to cars. You'd be nervous as all heck right? Well, you can bet she is too.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE pick up the phone or draft an email and say to her sister : "I'm getting ready to buy the ring. Can you please send me 5 links to rings that you think she will love. Tell me what SHAPE stone she wants. And what STYLE and METAL setting. And also tell me anything you think I should AVOID."

OKAY???? It's 17 thousand dollars. Do not go out and do this in a vacuum. Is this about YOU and how you feel? Or is this the symbol of the start of your life as a team? As partners? HONOR that partnership by LISTENING TO HER and reaching out to her sister NOW.

 

[yssie]

To answer one question - no, Gypsy is not in the trade. She is, however, an expert by virtue of having successfully walked others through this same purchase hundreds of times... do yourself a favour and take her advice, esp. with regard to consulting her sister.


I disagree strongly with TC: I advise that you toss that cheat sheet for RBs out the window - I despise the thing, it thing has no business lurking on an educational forum.

 

[Rosebloom]

Gypsy is totally right. First step, the sister!

 

[TC1987]

To answer one question - no, Gypsy is not in the trade. She is, however, an expert by virtue of having successfully walked others through this same purchase hundreds of times... do yourself a favour and take her advice, esp. with regard to consulting her sister.


I disagree strongly with TC: I advise that you toss that cheat sheet for RBs out the window - I despise the thing, it thing has no business lurking on an educational forum.

Ah, but that set of numbers has been around here a long, long time. It traces back to Todd Gray's preferences when he ran NiceIce dot com as a diamond-selling site (One can look back through Eyecandy e-ring thread in SMTB and see NiceIce diamonds there.) And Todd Gray and Wink Jones later went on to become Infinity Diamond vendors. Infinity are some of the best-cut hearts & arrows diamonds out there. So, I do tend to think that a diamond dealer's purchasing experience, boiled down, means something.

Todd Gray still has a NiceIce site. Look there, and you will see, on "If I Were Buying a Diamond for Myself:

I would limit the parameters of my search to diamonds with proportions within the following range of measurements:

Total depth between 59 – 61.8%
Table diameter between 53 – 57.5%
Crown angle between 34.3 – 34.9 degrees
Pavilion angle between 40.6 – 40.9 degrees
Girdle: thin to medium, faceted or polished
Culet: AGS pointed or GIA none (same thing)

Since I’m more interested in the visual performance of a diamond than I am the carat weight, I would further limit my search to super ideal cut diamonds which exhibit a crisp and complete pattern of Hearts & Arrows because of the superior sparkle factor provided by diamonds of this cut quality. ...

 

[Clairitek]

To answer one question - no, Gypsy is not in the trade. She is, however, an expert by virtue of having successfully walked others through this same purchase hundreds of times... do yourself a favour and take her advice, esp. with regard to consulting her sister.


I disagree strongly with TC: I advise that you toss that cheat sheet for RBs out the window - I despise the thing, it thing has no business lurking on an educational forum.

Huuuuuuuuge ditto to Gypsy and Yssie. And everyone else who has recommended that you speak with her sister.

I also heavily agree that a round is the best bet based on what you've told us about her.

 

[Alexiszoe]

Bear in mind that with super ideal cuts that some vendors carry there will be a price premium compared to a very well cut round. I owned a super ideal H&A RB and have also seen a similar size GIA excellent with fantastic HCA scores, and honestly, I cannot tell the difference in terms of visual performance, and it was cheaper.

If she likes rounds, and you want to maximize your budget, pick a stone with good HCA scores, put it up on PS and see what other PSers think. Gypsy mentioned IDJ, ERD and GOG who are all able to pick out beautiful diamonds for you as well.

 

[Hera]

Ditto Gypsy! Listen to her, she's a pro at this! Enlisting the sister will not only help to find an ering that she will love but you'll also get good family karma from valuing her sister's opinion. Win/win!!

I'd have it set by the jeweler you buy the stone from. I don't know much about the vendor you inquired about but I would use one of the more suggested preferred vendors of Pricescope. Not only do they have a wide selection but good customer service and will make things right in the case you have any difficulty in your transaction.

Have you asked your girlfriend if she would like to offer up some of her likes/dislikes for the ring? Many women like to be part of the process and you two can select the ring and the proposal can still be a surprise.

 

[stargurl78]

Once you find out more about her preferred shape from her sister, what about a setting like this gorgeous ring from Leon Mege? She seems to like classic based on the info you provided but you mentioned that she likes old world charm. I think the engraving and the milgrain add a little bit of that:



Or maybe if you went with a simpler style like a solitaire, you could go with a band like this from Victor Canera:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/new-victor-canera-1-8mm-platinum-engraved-wedding-band.167540/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/new-victor-canera-1-8mm-platinum-engraved-wedding-band.167540/[/URL]

 

[yssie]

To answer one question - no, Gypsy is not in the trade. She is, however, an expert by virtue of having successfully walked others through this same purchase hundreds of times... do yourself a favour and take her advice, esp. with regard to consulting her sister.


I disagree strongly with TC: I advise that you toss that cheat sheet for RBs out the window - I despise the thing, it thing has no business lurking on an educational forum.

Ah, but that set of numbers has been around here a long, long time. It traces back to Todd Gray's preferences when he ran NiceIce dot com as a diamond-selling site (One can look back through Eyecandy e-ring thread in SMTB and see NiceIce diamonds there.) And Todd Gray and Wink Jones later went on to become Infinity Diamond vendors. Infinity are some of the best-cut hearts & arrows diamonds out there. So, I do tend to think that a diamond dealer's purchasing experience, boiled down, means something.

Todd Gray still has a NiceIce site. Look there, and you will see, on "If I Were Buying a Diamond for Myself:

I would limit the parameters of my search to diamonds with proportions within the following range of measurements:

Total depth between 59 – 61.8%
Table diameter between 53 – 57.5%
Crown angle between 34.3 – 34.9 degrees
Pavilion angle between 40.6 – 40.9 degrees
Girdle: thin to medium, faceted or polished
Culet: AGS pointed or GIA none (same thing)

Since I’m more interested in the visual performance of a diamond than I am the carat weight, I would further limit my search to super ideal cut diamonds which exhibit a crisp and complete pattern of Hearts & Arrows because of the superior sparkle factor provided by diamonds of this cut quality. ...

That set of numbers is meaningless without any understanding of WHY they are recommended as such, addendums, disclaimers, explanations, and all.
That set of numbers is meaningless without any understanding of whether the look and feel that those particular ranges result in is the one that is most appealing to *you*.
Proposing them as a cheat sheet encourages people to do exactly the opposite of try to understand.
Like the fact that GIA rounds pav up to the nearest 0.2, and someone with no further understanding might well exclude an otherwise blessed diamond with a 41 pav angle noted on the report based solely on that fact (yes, they will, we've seen it happen many times).

It doesn't represent a diamond dealer's experience boiled down - there is no such thing. There are no Cliff Notes study guides that can begin to equate to or represent the years and years of hands-on experience that could lead to such well-defined personal tastes.

I'm an experimentalist by trade. I don't see virtue in taking anyone's words at face value without making some effort of my own to try to find out if his/her assertions resonate with me, and based on my personal experiences I've discovered that my personal preferences lie well outside those ranges. I'm certainly not the only one. The true value of this site is, in my opinion, in first encouraging newcomers to find out whether they like chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry flavoured diamonds best, and then in helping them find the right flavour of diamond at a fair price from a reputable vendor. Handing newcomers a "guide" that points directly to Chocolate Nougat Crunch achieves exactly the opposite.


ETA: Very little is as black and white as we make it on here. The cutter of GOG's AV lines and DBL's signature cushions feels that PSers are melodramatic about labelling stones "deep" and "leaky", and logic dictates that for someone who likes lots of coloured light return, especially, there's no real need to run screaming from slight "leakage" like PSers are generally so quick to recommend. The creator of the HCA tool feels that earring stones benefit from shallower pavilions than those numbers would suggest and a quick trip to the old highschool physics textbook yields ample justification. You might be interested in some of the links on Octonus' page -
http://www.octonus.com/oct/projects/

 

[yssie]

I know of you and your 15 e-ring upgrades and resets and meticulous redesigns and whatnot. As I recall, you even upgraded once or twice before your wedding had even taken place. I look forward to reading your next project.

Snark much?
I don't recall requesting your judgment on my and my DH's choices and actions, but perhaps you will appreciate the reassurance that I have no regrets. I confess, I don't particularly feel the need to justify my decisions to an anonymous newbie on an anonymous forum beyond that.
Not that any of that is at all relevant to either Consumer's questions or the side discussion we seem to be engaged in.

Obviously, you have quite a bit of experience in changing settings and changing your diamonds. But, I am a technologist, and I happen to concur with the "cheatsheet" for a H&A RB. Of course (I gush), it doesn't apply to all people or to all styles or makes or diamond, and it doesn't account for all tastes. But mine, for a H&A RB do fit quite nicely into that. And I do feel that it's an excellent jumping-off point for someone who wants a superideal and doesn't want to make a federal project. And as such, it does belong on an educational site.

You have your opinions. I have mine. It's allowed - perhaps even encouraged.
As a matter of fact Dreamer is a strong proponent of HCA + GIA EX||AGS0/1 as a quick and dirty for those who don't care for federal projects, to use your description, and I completely agree with her (I didn't always, but I suppose if you know of me then you already know that). Her formula is both effective and efficient. The difference is that it isn't proposed as a perfect solution, and it isn't presented as a distillation of the Path to Diamond Enlightenment For All. I do think that's an important distinction - w/ the former new buyers understand that they're choosing to disregard other considerations in the interests of efficiency, which is a perfectly acceptable educated decision. When new consumers who lack context *because* they're new try to use the latter, though, the usual outcome *is* losing the forest for the trees - that is, lots of totally unnecessary worry about that 41 pav angle on that GIA report, or whether a 58 table is too big...


ETA: Do check out the site I linked if you haven't been there before - they have a ton of articles that I actually do think you might find interesting. Some of which disagree with both of us I'd suggest starting with the newer ones on manipulating diamond colour - I just wish I had DC to play along!

 

[Laila619]

I think the 'cheat sheet' is fine and helpful for the most part, but I really don't get why it only recommends up to 35 degrees crown angles. There are a ton of great stones with steeper crowns (hello fire!), so long as they are paired with shallower/normal pavs.

 

[hearts-arrows_girl]

Good luck with your project. I too vote for getting insight from her sister.

 

[jstarfireb]

Another big ditto to what's already been said.

Also, you mention that you're hell-bent on the element of surprise. Are you sure SHE wants that? Obviously people vary a lot, but to play devil's advocate, I would not have accepted a proposal from anyone who didn't involve me in the ring choice. Not because I'm greedy or selfish or whatever, but because it would be a sign that my future husband didn't know me well enough to know I would want to be involved (because I'm a HUGE jewelry buff and always have been, not to mention I hate surprises) and put his needs/desires above mine. The way I see it, this is (1) something she's going to be wearing every day for the rest of her life, (2) a very big purchase, and (3) a symbol of your commitment to each other and new life together. Why not let her in on the ring choice?

Some women do want to be surprised, of course, but an increasingly large group would rather help choose the ring. And to be honest, most rational modern couples have at least discussed the possibility of getting married before the guy even thinks of buying the ring, so it's not a total surprise anyway. At the very least, ask her what shape of stone and what color metal she would prefer. You can still keep the timing and setting of the proposal a surprise.