PriceScope family and experts, please help choosing a round brilliant!

[stanley515]

Hi Pricescope family! I've been learning as much as I can about diamonds and feel like I'm barely scratching the surface. I am running quite short on time though because the moment/place I wanted to propose is coming up very soon so I am stressing quite a little, but I was hoping the ps community could please help with choosing at least a great diamond with the preferences I know she wants and then give her the option to upgrade later if she chooses.

Currently my goals are:

Shape: round brilliant solitaire
Carat: 2.2 carats or higher
Color: J-H
Clarity: VS2 or higher
Band: simple plain 18k white gold band, 6 prong
Price: around $20,000

This ring would only be looked at with the human eye by her and her friends and family (will never been seen under a microscope). Therefore I would prefer to spend money where it counts (where it makes a worthwhile difference to the human eye) and to cut costs on features that aren't noticeable to the human eye (for this reason I chose VS2 as a cutoff). I was told by close friends that fluorescence won't be noticeable day-to-day (only seen under black light, which will be extremely rare for us) so I don't mind it if it helps to save costs.

I would ideally like to start at or lower than 20k and then give her the option to upgrade the ring to a higher price (up to around 23k) if there are specific features she realizes she wants after she sees the ring. So I was thinking a good start was finding a beautiful 2.2 carat, VS2, I color, 18k-20k ring and then giving her the option to go up on carat or color (or both) if she finds those things are important to her once she sees the ring. And if she loves the initial ring, then great!

Diamonds 28-55 are in this range (I color and >/= 2.2, VS2). Any thoughts on any that stand out?



Here are additional diamonds for consideration:

Diamonds 5-24 are similar but H color and >/= 2.2, VS2.



Diamonds 61-82 are similar but J color and >/= 2.2, VS2.



Thank you so much pricescope community! I've been perusing through old threads as a part of my research and the amount of knowledge that is graciously passed along by experts and diamond enthusiasts on these message boards is simply amazing. Thank you to anyone who is able to help with my diamond.

For the sake of having everything in one post, I've also listed a few questions I have about diamonds if anyone would like to chime in:

1) Is there a big difference to the human eye (especially for my diamond type and setting) between J and H color?
between I and H color?
between 2.2 and 2.5 carats?

2) A close friend mentioned that women are quite particular about color and one should not go below H. Should I be using that as my cutoff? Right now I don't know how color-sensitive my lady is (will find out after she gets the ring). But in general she doesnt seem like the super picky type. It sounded like the most important thing to her was karat size.

 

[beardog]

Have you read anything on here about the recommended diamond proportions? If so, is it important to you that the Stone you buy falls within them?
Also when you say you're interested in upgrade potential have you researched the policies from the different vendors?
You'll be able to get a lot of diamond for 20k but I don't think you'll find a super ideal 2.2 H vs2

 

[KKJohnson]

Do you know if the intended wearer is color sensitive? If you dont know then I suggest sticking with no lower than an H

Edited to add: there is also no reason to rule out an eye clean SI1

 

[lovedogs]

I would only consider stones with a GIA/AGS grade, that fall into ideal proportions (HCA under 2). That will help narrow your search down a lot. Use the search tool at the top of the page and you'll find options that fit those parameters.

 

[lovedogs]

EDIT. if you want a super-ideal cut and upgrade options, then likely you'll need to be ok with closer to 1.9ct rather than 2.2. Here's an example on WF that is super ideal and will leave room in the budget for setting.
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4059890.htm?source=pricescope

Here's an H, but will leave less budget for setting:
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4039667.htm?source=pricescope

 

[Stephan]

I like this one, because of your budget is difficult to find something else that is ideal.
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...2.147-j-vvs2-round-diamond-ags-c-104102553017
You can also find some Whiteflash SI1, if you prefer to go SI1 have them check the clarity.

 

[lovedogs]

I like this one, because of your budget is difficult to find something else that is ideal.
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...2.147-j-vvs2-round-diamond-ags-c-104102553017
You can also find some Whiteflash SI1, if you prefer to go SI1 have them check the clarity.

I assumed that his budget of 20K was for both stone and setting, so tried to stay under 19K, but OP if you can spend more then this option looks great!

 

[sledge]

Hey @stanley515, can you either post your Excel file for download, or possibly upload to a free Google sheets account? You can narrow down your list by filtering your sheet to includes these properties:

Crown = 34-35.5
Pavilion = 40.6-40.9
Depth = 60-62.4
Table = 54-57

Once there, we can start analyzing more closely. Also, do you have a web link in the custom built spreadsheet? It will help in pulling up certs, etc.

 

[stanley515]

Have you read anything on here about the recommended diamond proportions? If so, is it important to you that the Stone you buy falls within them?
Also when you say you're interested in upgrade potential have you researched the policies from the different vendors?
You'll be able to get a lot of diamond for 20k but I don't think you'll find a super ideal 2.2 H vs2

Hey @stanley515, can you either post your Excel file for download, or possibly upload to a free Google sheets account? You can narrow down your list by filtering your sheet to includes these properties:

Crown = 34-35.5
Pavilion = 40.6-40.9
Depth = 60-62.4
Table = 54-57

Once there, we can start analyzing more closely. Also, do you have a web link in the custom built spreadsheet? It will help in pulling up certs, etc.

Hey @beardog, yes I have looked into proportions and yes they and the sparkling effect of the diamond are definitely important (I'm assuming you're referring to HCA sores of under 2?).

I'll use the parameters from @sledge (thank you!) to narrow the list and resend here. I'll try the google sheets idea too, but will have to upload after work when I have wifi =/. Unfortunately, no I don't have the links to the certs in the document (I just listed the ID numbers of each diamond which I use in the search function of the diamond's webpage to find the diamond again and its certification).

 

[Matilda]

Also https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3940196.htm

but would need to ask about eye clean factor

 

[stanley515]

Do you know if the intended wearer is color sensitive? If you dont know then I suggest sticking with no lower than an H

Edited to add: there is also no reason to rule out an eye clean SI1

@KKJohnson I don't know if she is color sensitive, but she usually isn't a picky person in general. Yeah I've also heard about the H cutoff which unfortunately drives up the cost considerably. She seemed to definitely prioritize size over everything else. The SI1 eye clean is a great idea! I'll make sure to consider those.

 

[KKJohnson]

@KKJohnson I don't know if she is color sensitive, but she usually isn't a picky person in general. Yeah I've also heard about the H cutoff which unfortunately drives up the cost considerably. She seemed to definitely prioritize size over everything else. The SI1 eye clean is a great idea! I'll make sure to consider those.

Yeah H is definitely a bigger cost, if you do go with an I then going with a super ideal is better option since they will have the best cut and the cut will help them face up whiter.

This is an SI2 BUT it’s a CBI and they produce great diamonds, I would call them and ask for a video. The photos all indicate it’s a clean stone

https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD8104

I would request an ASET image for this one
https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...rat-h-color-vs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-4958548

Sadly Whiteflash is looking a bit slim right now so I don’t have any to suggest but you could give them a call and see if they have anything coming in soon that fits what you are looking for

 

[rockysalamander]

Not many vendors will allow you to upgrade with less than a doubling of the initial price unless it is a branded cut, and even then rarely . If you are serious about upgrade possibility, to allow her to bump to her chosen goal, I'd stick with a vendor with more flexible rules like Whiteflash & HighPerformanceDiamonds (both spend $1 more to upgrade with 100% initial cost), or briangavin (but you have to upgrade 2 of 3, color, clarity, carat). Stones from these three have been posted above.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4039667.htm
This is slightly under your size goal, but gives you an easy upgrade policy to let her bump to her goal.

Depending on how tight your timeline, you also have to realize that most vendors don't have the stones in their offices (the above 3 aside). If you want ASET, as we suggest, they are reliant on the seller. All that can add time. Do you have that kind of time? Are you within 1-2 weeks or months? We've seen several of the large drop shippers miss delivery dates around sales and holidays.

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

Do you know if the intended wearer is color sensitive? If you dont know then I suggest sticking with no lower than an H

Edited to add: there is also no reason to rule out an eye clean SI1

Great points KKJohnson,

I will add that I know several people with well-cut I color diamonds that face-up more like a G or H because of the efficiency of light return. Remember the well-cut diamond gets light in and out more quickly making it less likely to pick up the color in the diamond; this is one of the reasons a diamond's color is still judged with the diamond table-side down.

 

[stanley515]

@lovedogs , @Stephan , @KKJohnson , @rockysalamander, thank you all for you fantastic recommendations- I have added them to my list (copied below).

@sledge, I filtered my list with your proportion cutoffs and then further narrowed my list to only include HCA scores under 2:




Do you guys have favorites in each of the different price categories (under $22,000, under $20,000, under $19,000)? The ones in gold (#6, 13 and 16) are super ideals. Links to each diamond are below for easy retrieval of certifications/specs if needed.


Currently, my favorite (with my novice knowledge of diamonds) is #13. This fits in my price range of about $20,000. Size and performance/sparkliness are the 2 most important factors and this satisfies both (2.39 and super ideal), but it is SI1 and I. This rock will only be seen by the human eye (never under a microscope) by her and her friends and family. I would prefer to spend money where it counts (where it makes a worthwhile difference to the human eye) and to cut costs on features that aren't noticeable to the human eye. Will the SI1 and I be an issue for us?

@Matilda, I asked WF if this diamond is eye clean and their response: ["This stone has fantastic edge to edge light return and is packed with tons of fire, sparkle and brilliance. It didn't make our definition of eye clean which means our team was able to see an inclusion from 10 inches on the top without magnification."] Will this degree of eye uncleanliness be an issue?



Links to diamonds:

3: couldn't find diamond's page, might not be avail anymore?
4: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4050637.htm
5: https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD10914856
6: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2994225.htm
7: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4018103.htm
8: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-h-color-vs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-4958548
9: https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...2.147-j-vvs2-round-diamond-ags-c-104102553017
10: https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD8104
11: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4032119.htm

13: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3940196.htm
14: https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD11311806
15: https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD11508383
16: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4039667.htm

18: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4044442.htm
19: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4049892.htm
20: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4048579.htm
21: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4036559.htm

 

[sledge]

I'm about to leave my office and don't have time to thoroughly review right this second. One thing that immediately jumped out is that some of the WF stones you have are GIA virtual inventory.

WF has several level of stones:

• A Cut Above (ACA) is their top tier super ideal kick ass stone
• Expert Select (ES) is a near miss ACA with AGS certification
• Premium Select (PS) is a near miss ACA with GIA certification
• Virtual Inventory which is normally GIA certified

The ACA, ES & PS lines are all vetted and stored in-house. Additionally these stones carry a lifetime upgrade policy (spend $1 more and get full credit of original stone) and complete light performance and symmetry images that people rave about here.

Any virtual inventory stone is a different beast. By the pure nature, they are stones that are stocked at an offsite location/supply house, normally located overseas or NYC. The supplier makes the stones available to multiple retailers like WF, BN, etc. Getting advanced imagery, etc can be tricky. I think WF will call the stones in (once payment is made) and then do all the images so you can see what you are getting. If you decide to cancel the order, they will refund your cash and you start the process over.

While WF will work in virtual inventory to help their customers, their reputation and awesomeness is not built around those type of stones. Rather it is built around the ACA, ES and PS lines and that is what they like to offer.

BGD has several product lines too. HPD is a "dealer" for Crafted by Infinity (CBI). Both BGD and HPD/CBI stones are on par with the WF ACA stones. HPD has an upgrade policy like WF. BGD is similar but more restrictive and requires you spend $1 more + 2 of the following 3 C's: carat weight, clarity or color. Most of the virtual inventory dealers (JA, BN, etc) requires you to spend 2x the original purchase to get full credit on your original stone.

 

[Stephan]

It didn't make our definition of eye clean which means our team was able to see an inclusion from 10 inches on the top without magnification.

I could guess it would not be eye clean from the pictures, and you can appreciate that Whiteflash is honest about that. If you don't know what your fiancee thinks about visible inclusions, you can ask her. If you don't want to ask her, I think it is risky. Her family could criticize you for this black spot. And with all the options, they could criticize you for a darker stone, or a jeweler may criticize you for the fluorescence. The simplest option would be to reduce the size or increase your budget if you want something that nobody can criticize. You could begin with a smaller diamond and promise her you will upgrade next year.

 

[Stephan]

I would suggest to buy (in no particular order) from CBI / BGD / WF.
The most important feature is trust (and upgrade options).
Of the diamonds you listed, there is one that is a NO - NO!
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4048579.htm
This diamond seems to have transparency issues.
(I can't comment about those who only have a sample image)
I don't think that Bluenile will tell you if fluorescence is an issue in one of their diamonds, but the vendors listed above will, same for clarity etc.

 

[lovedogs]

I would ask HPD to send you a video of the CBI so you can see it with your own eyes. Ask WF to send you an image of all 3 of their ACA options.

Don't bother with any of the virtual selection stones from WF, or with any stone with an IGI cert.

EDIT. the BGD one looks great as well, definitely I'd put that at the top of my list.

 

[LinSF]

I think the CBI is a custom cut, because it's been on hold for a while... just saying I've noticed.

 

[LaylaR]

I think the CBI is a custom cut, because it's been on hold for a while... just saying I've noticed.

Not a custom cut.

 

[LinSF]

Layla, just a regular hold then? How can you tell, just for my future reference!

 

[sledge]

Layla, just a regular hold then? How can you tell, just for my future reference!

She works there.

 

[LinSF]

HAHA, well now that makes sense!

 

[sledge]

Links to diamonds:

3: couldn't find diamond's page, might not be avail anymore?

Doesn't matter. Pass. IGI is not a credible lab, so the reported proportions, color & clarity may or may not be accurate. Stick with GIA or AGS stones.

4: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4050637.htm

This is a virtual inventory stone.

I'd like to see the table at 57 or less, but 58 is technically acceptable. The 34.5/40.8 combo sounds good, but without additional images it's hard to know for sure.

5: https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD10914856

Would have been worth a look, but is no longer available. In fact, the buyer just made a post asking for input on his purchase.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/did-we-choose-a-good-diamond.245427/

6: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2994225.htm

Beautiful stone with lots of fire. Love that small 55 table. Unfortunately, the WF says "Inquire" under the Eye Clean status, which means it normally isn't eye clean.

7: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4018103.htm

Virtual inventory. I don't like the 33/41 combo and would pass. The crown is too shallow IMO, especially when you consider GIA rounds & averages in a funky way so it's a possibility that some of the actual crown values are actually less than 33.

8: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-h-color-vs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-4958548

Video looks nice. I'm not a fan of the 34.5/41 combo. Typically when going that steep on the pavilion you want to have a shallow 34 crown so angles remain complimentary. As a point of interest, this stone picked up an Ideal 0 on the cut & polish, but only received an Excellent 1 on the symmetry.

Prior to committing I'd want to see an idealscope and/or ASET image. But honestly, for $20k I'd prefer a super ideal that has true H&A symmetry and great upgrade programs. With JA you have to spend 2x the original value ($40k+) to get full value of the original stone. With WF or HPD, you just spend $1 more can trade up.

9: https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...2.147-j-vvs2-round-diamond-ags-c-104102553017

56.9 table, 34.1 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 78 LGF

Looks like a beautiful stone. BGD is well known for providing a great cut diamond. I actually bought a BGD Blue (has medium fluor) for my fiancee.

Given the proportions this stone will favor a little more white light return, although it will still have plenty of fire too.

You should be aware their trade-in policy is good in the fact you can spend $1 more, but you also have to upgrade 2 of the 3 following C's: color, carat weight or clarity. Looking at this particular stone, I find it very unlikely you'd want to upgrade the VVS2 clarity so that realistically leaves you upgrading color and carat weight. Depending on your thought process, I could see the next upgrade being a 2.5+ carat H/I color stone and maybe dropping the clarity (SI1+, confirm this is acceptable with BGD) a bit while remaining at their $1+ threshold on the price (at least if it was me, and assuming it'd be okay to drop levels in one of the C's).

Or maybe I'm overthinking the trade situation. I just know it's a really nice option to have and I'd hate to see you get locked into something that made it hard to trade up when/if the time comes.

A final thought, BGD currently has some deals going on. To me, they seem complicated, but maybe I haven't taken the time to properly understand them. I think you can get 8% off the sales price of this particular diamond by entering this code: 12DAYS18DIA. I'm just not clear if you have to buy another "gift of the day" to activate the code. Might be worth a call to Lesley @ BGD to confirm as this is about $1,600 savings.

10: https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD8104

If you aren't aware Crafted by Infinity (CBI) cuts and supplies the stones that HPD sells. In a sense, HPD is a "dealer" for CBI. This isn't a bad thing by any means. In fact, HPD has a superior reputation for providing excellent customer service. Wink is the owner and quite the personality. I tell you this not to create any concerns, but so you understand how these terms (HPD, CBI, HPD/CBI, etc) might get slammed around later in this conversation.

CBI has a great reputation for providing quality cut stones. I have little doubt it will be a sparkle ball. What does concern me is the clarity plot. Truthfully it makes my chest tighten a little looking at it. Very few SI2's are eye clean; however, if you ask HPD will take additional images and videos of the stone to show you any potential concerns.

Also, I want to add that HPD prides themselves on selling eye clean stones. So I'd say this stone is probably the rare exception but you still need to do some homework to make sure.

Lastly, they have a killer upgrade program like WF -- spend $1 more and get full credit value of your original stone. No other restrictions.

11: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4032119.htm

Again virtual inventory. I don't like the 33.5/40.8 combo and would eliminate.

I will try to comment on the other stones when I get some more time.

 

[Dancing Fire]

10: https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD8104

Call Wink or Layla if this stone is truly eye clean go for it!

 

[stanley515]

Iwill try to comment on the other stones when I get some more time.

@sledge, thank you for this incredible analysis!! Can’t wait to hear what you think of the remaining diamonds!

 

[kmoro]

@sledge, thank you for this incredible analysis!! Can’t wait to hear what you think of the remaining diamonds!

13 is probably not eye-clean
14 need images to assess, not an Astor
15 not available
16 best option ... you could maybe hold out for a smaller table but 55.8 is nice and the video makes me drool
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4039667.htm
Virtual inventory, not a fan:
18 58% table angles may or may not work
19 57% table but complementary CA/PA
20 not available
21 60% table

just my 2 cents while you’re waiting for more details from sledge ...

 

[coda72]

Definitely go for the CBI stone if it’s available. If not, here’s a couple of more options from BGD. I’m a fan of J stones with fluorescence.

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...2.228-j-vs1-round-diamond-ags-bl-104102612058

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...2.125-j-vs1-round-diamond-ags-bl-104102899046

 

[sledge]

13: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3940196.htm

Like the overall proportions and images. WF is a great vendor, so that is a plus.

What concerns me is the clarity. A big crystal on the table and some whisps. The WF webpage says "inquire" which typically means it's not eye clean. I'd ask their gemologist to pull the stone and review to determine how bad it is.

14: https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD11311806

Stone shows as sold/unavailable. Love the table. Shallow 34 crown and steeper 40.8 pavilion is complimentary. Border line deep @ 62.4. Likely to favor a little more white light return, but pending ASET or idealscope images, the proportions look promising.

The clarity is a concern and I'd want human eyes to confirm it's truly an eye clean stone.

15: https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD11508383

Again, shows as unavailable/sold.

Like the smaller 56 table and 75 LGF's. The shallow 34 crown compliments the steeper 41 pavilion. Normally we like to stay at 40.9 max on pavilion, but the 41 may work. Keep in mind, the way GIA rounds & averages, you could be above 41 or below 41 on the actual individual measurements. Below would be better. The concern is you'd go higher.

Worth considering. I'd request an ASET and idealscope.

I prefer stones with a steeper crown for more fire, but I think this stone will be fairly well balanced with the small table (more fire) and 75 LGF's (bigger bolder flashes).

16: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4039667.htm

Proportions look rather dreamy. The WF webpage says it's eye clean, but that video with all the little specks drives me bonkers. I'd want them to pull that stone and confirm it's truly eye clean.

18: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4044442.htm

58 table, 62.1 depth, 35.5 crown, 40.6 pavilion & 75 LGF

Virtual inventory, so again, not the ACA H&A diamonds that WF is known to provide.

All criteria falls within ideal ranges. Crown is a little steep @ 35.5 but is very complimentary to the 40.6 pavilion. Steep crowns means big fire. The larger 58 table reduces fire as the upper facets will be smaller as a result.

If you decide to get this through WF, they will take all the images for you. If they come back bad you can get a refund and start the process over.

Stone is dated 2011, so likely a pre-loved trade-in/trade up. Not sure if that bothers you or not.

19: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4049892.htm

57 table, 61.9 depth, 34.5 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 80 LGF

Again, virtual inventory. However, the proportions are rather dreamy. I personally like a smaller 54-55 table, but many like and prefer that 57 table. The 34.5/40.8 combo is highly sought after by many. I think this could be a very well balanced stone with good fire.

Clarity plot looks rather clean for an SI1. I'd make sure that crystal on the table isn't black.

Also, this stone has strong fluor. You need to confirm the stone isn't milky or oily looking as a result. I don't have a problem with fluor and think it might help whiten the stone a little since it's an I color. Nice thing is strong flour stones trade for less money. You just have to make sure you and your SO is okay with it.

Worth a serious consideration IMO, and one of the larger stones in the lower portion of your budget. I'd ask WF to verify some details.

20: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4048579.htm

No longer available.

21: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4036559.htm

60 table, 60.4 depth, 34 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 80 LGF

Again, virtual inventory.

This is what we call a 60/60 stone, meaning the depth & table both equal 60. These type of stones throw a lot of white light return is a very different personality than the ideal proportion type stones of some of the ones above.

Additionally you have a shallow 34 crown with a complimentary 40.8 pavilion and 80 LGF, all of which will enhance white light return.

Not everyone loves 60/60 stones. Assuming you do like this style of stone, it's worth a consideration.