~*Alexis*~
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LiW Pre-Nup Poll
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We don''t plan on having one. We''re still in discussion over this, though. I want one, because I don''t want there to be room for doubt that our divorce (heaven forbid) would go smoothly, or that one person could take advantage of the other. FI doesn''t see the point, because neither of us have sizeable assets that would need to be protected.
We haven''t done the research yet to know whether, in our case, we could protect future assets... but neither of us see a point in dividing things any other way than 50/50, at least for assets incurred post-marriage (which is all there will be unless one of us wins the lottery within the next year... would be hard since we never buy lotto tickets...).
We haven''t done the research yet to know whether, in our case, we could protect future assets... but neither of us see a point in dividing things any other way than 50/50, at least for assets incurred post-marriage (which is all there will be unless one of us wins the lottery within the next year... would be hard since we never buy lotto tickets...).
~*Alexis*~
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KimberlyH
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decodelighted
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"Pre-Nup" is a general term ... there are many different variations.
Would you sign away your right to 1/2 the $$ accumulated DURING your marriage or just what he comes into it with (if he''s in "ruin" it doesn''t seem like much??).
BTW ... many people end up in financial ruin after a divorce without any "greediness" involved. It''s much harder for two people to live seperately, especially if kids are involved, than together -- often there''s not enough $$ to go around.
Would you sign away your right to 1/2 the $$ accumulated DURING your marriage or just what he comes into it with (if he''s in "ruin" it doesn''t seem like much??).
BTW ... many people end up in financial ruin after a divorce without any "greediness" involved. It''s much harder for two people to live seperately, especially if kids are involved, than together -- often there''s not enough $$ to go around.
Independent Gal
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We WERE planning on having one because I have assets (including a home) and he has ZILCH-O... but he does have some valuable family heirlooms that should STAY in HIS family in case he dies early or we divorce and I remarry. Also, we've agreed to raise any children in my religion, and in case (heaven forbid) of divorce or my early death, I want that to stick.
The thing to remember is that a pre-nup is not just in case of divorce, it's also in case of untimely death if one party remarries. So it can be stipulated what happens with certain assets and with the children if another spouse or step-children come into the picture.
THE CATCH: We called around, and it seems it would cost us EACH at the very MINIMUM $1500 (so min $3000) in lawyers fees to do this.
So, since the assets in question aren't really THAT considerable, and considering that neither of us has any inclination to cheat or gouge anyone ever, never mind each other, no matter how mad we are (we're both 'Integrity Above All' types) we decided to write up a contract between the two of us with NO lawyers involved, and have it witnessed by one friend each. That way, we have in writing what we agreed to, so neither of us can forget. This is FAR FAR FAR from water-tight, but a judge would be inclined (so we're told) to respect the contract unless someone seriously went after it in court. Now, since we're not talking about assets considerable enough to make that worth anyone's while, and since neither of us would ever be inclined to do that, we thought a contract between us was good enough for us, and we'd rather save the 3-4K for something more cheerful than lawyers fees!
It's less for the court, more a statement for ourselves of what we've agreed to between ourselves, see what I mean?
The thing to remember is that a pre-nup is not just in case of divorce, it's also in case of untimely death if one party remarries. So it can be stipulated what happens with certain assets and with the children if another spouse or step-children come into the picture.
THE CATCH: We called around, and it seems it would cost us EACH at the very MINIMUM $1500 (so min $3000) in lawyers fees to do this.
So, since the assets in question aren't really THAT considerable, and considering that neither of us has any inclination to cheat or gouge anyone ever, never mind each other, no matter how mad we are (we're both 'Integrity Above All' types) we decided to write up a contract between the two of us with NO lawyers involved, and have it witnessed by one friend each. That way, we have in writing what we agreed to, so neither of us can forget. This is FAR FAR FAR from water-tight, but a judge would be inclined (so we're told) to respect the contract unless someone seriously went after it in court. Now, since we're not talking about assets considerable enough to make that worth anyone's while, and since neither of us would ever be inclined to do that, we thought a contract between us was good enough for us, and we'd rather save the 3-4K for something more cheerful than lawyers fees!
It's less for the court, more a statement for ourselves of what we've agreed to between ourselves, see what I mean?
~*Alexis*~
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He has 2 kids (5 and7). He makes a considerable amount of money a year compared to me....he is 12 years older than me. They had nothing when they first got married and he worked and she did some real estate on the side but never really amounted to much so he was the bread winner....after 7 years they decided to divorce. She tried to take his BMW..the house they built as well as before filing she racked up $30,000 in credit card debt and emptied their joint account. They have split shared custody of the kids, he pays 80% of their personal needs and she pays 20% because of her job as a RE Agent. She has not sold a house in over 2 years and demands more and more money every month because she cannot manage her bills but she can afford many needless extravagences. He pays her $400 more an month that required because she cant make her ends meet. I am moving there in April if not sooner because the job market here is horrible and I want to be with him. I said I would sign one and he said he never believed in them but since his previous marriage he thinks he needs one....Date: 9/8/2007 2:47:59 PM
Author: Independent Gal
We WERE planning on having one because I have assets (including a home) and he has ZILCH-O... but he does have some valuable family heirlooms that should STAY in HIS family in case he dies early or we divorce and I remarry. Also, we''ve agreed to raise any children in my religion, and in case (heaven forbid) of divorce or my early death, I want that to stick.
The thing to remember is that a pre-nup is not just in case of divorce, it''s also in case of untimely death if one party remarries. So it can be stipulated what happens with certain assets and with the children if another spouse or step-children come into the picture.
THE CATCH: We called around, and it seems it would cost us EACH at the very MINIMUM $1500 (so min $3000) in lawyers fees to do this.
So, since the assets in question aren''t really THAT considerable, and considering that neither of us has any inclination to cheat or gouge anyone ever, never mind each other, no matter how mad we are (we''re both ''Integrity Above All'' types) we decided to write up a contract between the two of us with NO lawyers involved, and have it witnessed by one friend each. That way, we have in writing what we agreed to, so neither of us can forget. This is FAR FAR FAR from water-tight, but a judge would be inclined (so we''re told) to respect the contract unless someone seriously went after it in court. Now, since we''re not talking about assets considerable enough to make that worth anyone''s while, and since neither of us would ever be inclined to do that, we thought a contract between us was good enough for us, and we''d rather save the 3-4K for something more cheerful than lawyers fees!
It''s less for the court, more a statement for ourselves of what we''ve agreed to between ourselves, see what I mean?
I like the contract idea with the witness. Maybe I will bring that up.....
Hence why I was curious about the prenups..............
KimberlyH
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~*Alexis*~
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Independent Gal
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I''m not 100% certain, but I''m pretty sure that what is acquired in the course of a marriage automatically belongs to both people. It doesn''t matter who earns more. Pre-nups mostly protect what you have going IN to the marriage.
You DEFINITELY need to consult your OWN lawyer that you find and pay yourself. In fact, if one of you has a lawyer or even TALKS to a lawyer and the other doesn''t, then at least in some states, the agreement is nul and void. Other things that make the agreement void are: one or both of you concealing assets from the other, the agreement being obviously in the favour of one party and to the detriment of the other... these things vary by state, but the idea is that if he really has THAT many more assets than you do then you have to do it right. Just keep in mind that you are already entering into a marriage that already has grossly unequal power relations (his age, assets, earning power, etc. compared to yours). Pre-nups have to be fair to both parties. Also, you can''t make any kind of stipulation in advance with respect to child support. That is always decided by a court according to the childrens'' best interests.
As for his ex...
If he''s paying her MORE than he''s required to, is a pre-nup really the answer? That''s his choice. It has nothing to do with legal obligations.
People take on each others'' responsibilities when they get married and have joint accounts. That''s why you shouldn''t marry someone who''s inclined to get you into debt. Or, if you do, keep your accounts separate. No pre-nup is going to save him from having to pay debt that''s in his name as well as yours. A pre-nup won''t save him from teh credit card situation you describe.
As for what''s left, people make plans based on their understanding of what role each person will play in a marriage. If they agreed that he would be the major breadwinner and she would take care of the home and kids, then it doesn''t matter that he made more money, the money belongs to both of them as a unit. She would have been working if they had not made that arrangement. She might have made other choices in terms of education. Etc. She made her choices partly on teh basis of an understanding of their SHARED plans for the future.
Those laws are in place for a reason. They are there to protect the weaker party in a marriage, whichever partner that might be. If a person is in a horribly unhappy, dysfunctional, or even abusive marriage, they should not HAVE to stay because their partner has been the major breadwinner and they have few options to look after themselves or their children.
The key thing is, you don''t know what was really between them and you never can. Only the two of them know that. So it''s good to be cautious in making judgments about her and their situation.
Two sides to every story, as the saying goes!
You DEFINITELY need to consult your OWN lawyer that you find and pay yourself. In fact, if one of you has a lawyer or even TALKS to a lawyer and the other doesn''t, then at least in some states, the agreement is nul and void. Other things that make the agreement void are: one or both of you concealing assets from the other, the agreement being obviously in the favour of one party and to the detriment of the other... these things vary by state, but the idea is that if he really has THAT many more assets than you do then you have to do it right. Just keep in mind that you are already entering into a marriage that already has grossly unequal power relations (his age, assets, earning power, etc. compared to yours). Pre-nups have to be fair to both parties. Also, you can''t make any kind of stipulation in advance with respect to child support. That is always decided by a court according to the childrens'' best interests.
As for his ex...
If he''s paying her MORE than he''s required to, is a pre-nup really the answer? That''s his choice. It has nothing to do with legal obligations.
People take on each others'' responsibilities when they get married and have joint accounts. That''s why you shouldn''t marry someone who''s inclined to get you into debt. Or, if you do, keep your accounts separate. No pre-nup is going to save him from having to pay debt that''s in his name as well as yours. A pre-nup won''t save him from teh credit card situation you describe.
As for what''s left, people make plans based on their understanding of what role each person will play in a marriage. If they agreed that he would be the major breadwinner and she would take care of the home and kids, then it doesn''t matter that he made more money, the money belongs to both of them as a unit. She would have been working if they had not made that arrangement. She might have made other choices in terms of education. Etc. She made her choices partly on teh basis of an understanding of their SHARED plans for the future.
Those laws are in place for a reason. They are there to protect the weaker party in a marriage, whichever partner that might be. If a person is in a horribly unhappy, dysfunctional, or even abusive marriage, they should not HAVE to stay because their partner has been the major breadwinner and they have few options to look after themselves or their children.
The key thing is, you don''t know what was really between them and you never can. Only the two of them know that. So it''s good to be cautious in making judgments about her and their situation.
Two sides to every story, as the saying goes!
KimberlyH
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What she said.Date: 9/8/2007 4:29:15 PM
Author: Independent Gal
I''m not 100% certain, but I''m pretty sure that what is acquired in the course of a marriage automatically belongs to both people. It doesn''t matter who earns more. Pre-nups mostly protect what you have going IN to the marriage.
You DEFINITELY need to consult your OWN lawyer that you find and pay yourself. In fact, if one of you has a lawyer or even TALKS to a lawyer and the other doesn''t, then at least in some states, the agreement is nul and void. Other things that make the agreement void are: one or both of you concealing assets from the other, the agreement being obviously in the favour of one party and to the detriment of the other... these things vary by state, but the idea is that if he really has THAT many more assets than you do then you have to do it right. Just keep in mind that you are already entering into a marriage that already has grossly unequal power relations (his age, assets, earning power, etc. compared to yours). Pre-nups have to be fair to both parties. Also, you can''t make any kind of stipulation in advance with respect to child support. That is always decided by a court according to the childrens'' best interests.
As for his ex...
If he''s paying her MORE than he''s required to, is a pre-nup really the answer? That''s his choice. It has nothing to do with legal obligations.
People take on each others'' responsibilities when they get married and have joint accounts. That''s why you shouldn''t marry someone who''s inclined to get you into debt. Or, if you do, keep your accounts separate. No pre-nup is going to save him from having to pay debt that''s in his name as well as yours. A pre-nup won''t save him from teh credit card situation you describe.
As for what''s left, people make plans based on their understanding of what role each person will play in a marriage. If they agreed that he would be the major breadwinner and she would take care of the home and kids, then it doesn''t matter that he made more money, the money belongs to both of them as a unit. She would have been working if they had not made that arrangement. She might have made other choices in terms of education. Etc. She made her choices partly on teh basis of an understanding of their SHARED plans for the future.
Those laws are in place for a reason. They are there to protect the weaker party in a marriage, whichever partner that might be. If a person is in a horribly unhappy, dysfunctional, or even abusive marriage, they should not HAVE to stay because their partner has been the major breadwinner and they have few options to look after themselves or their children.
The key thing is, you don''t know what was really between them and you never can. Only the two of them know that. So it''s good to be cautious in making judgments about her and their situation.
Two sides to every story, as the saying goes!
jakesgirl2
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FF is a law student so it goes without saying we will have one. We actually have something very similar right now. I had him draw up a legal contract before moving in together as I would be supporting him 100% while he was in law school. He was actually very hard on himself and I tried to tell him that we would end up married, but like PP said, in case he died, he wanted to make sure I was ok and that what I had spent while he was in school was repaid to me. We both laugh at it but as he is law student, he wouldn''t have it any other way. I know we will have one before we get married too.
zoebartlett
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Independent Gal
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zoebartlett
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Hi Indy,
My parents have a lawyer friend who very kindly drew up a short document (real short) that stated how much each of us has agreed to pay for household expenses -- mainly, the condo itself (some couples do 50/50, some do 2/3, 1/3, etc.). He did this for free. He e-mailed us the document, we printed it out, and then went to his house and signed it first. Our friend signed it last and then gave us the document for safe-keeping. I''m not sure he even has a copy. It is a legal document but it''s probably only one paragraph long. There wasn''t a need to do this separately.
We didn''t want a pre-nup, and actually, I don''t think we really discussed having one. When we bought our condo we weren''t yet engaged and my mom thought it would be a good idea to have something legal drawn up, just in case something were to happen (like a break up). My FI and I wouldn''t ever get to the vindictive point with each other -- what''s his is his and what''s mine is mine, and neither of us are looking to financially ruin the other. I do think it was a good idea to do though.
Independent Gal
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Yup, that sounds smart! I think our situation (stipulating return of heirlooms to his family, religion of the kids, etc.) probably would be considered more like a pre-nup by a court, and so we couldn''t make use of just one lawyer or that would automatically invalidate it. Oh well! But honestly, I think we''re both thinking of this as a very solemn aide memoire, more than anything else, so we don''t get to a point where he says ''but I thought we agreed X!'' and I say ''No, we agreed Y''.
But your mom was smart about that! I''d have done the same thing if I''d bought a place jointly with someone.
But your mom was smart about that! I''d have done the same thing if I''d bought a place jointly with someone.
basil
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We don''t have any assets that are worth fighting over, and we both have substantial student loans.
We haven''t ever talked about a pre-nup.
One thing I have thought of before (more in the context of if I was to ever marry my ex-boyfriend, rather than my fiance) is a property I stand to inherit when my parents pass away. This (knock on wood) won''t be anytime soon. It''s waterfront and was purchased in the 1930s, but it probably worth a substantial amount today. The value for me is mostly sentimental. I grew up there.
If I inherit something during the time of our marriage and then divorce, is my spouse entitled to a share of the property? That''s really the only worry I''d have.
We haven''t ever talked about a pre-nup.
One thing I have thought of before (more in the context of if I was to ever marry my ex-boyfriend, rather than my fiance) is a property I stand to inherit when my parents pass away. This (knock on wood) won''t be anytime soon. It''s waterfront and was purchased in the 1930s, but it probably worth a substantial amount today. The value for me is mostly sentimental. I grew up there.
If I inherit something during the time of our marriage and then divorce, is my spouse entitled to a share of the property? That''s really the only worry I''d have.
Independent Gal
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Anything you inherit stays yours alone... at least that''s my understanding (not sure about other states). So the only thing is that if you want it to stay in your family, say, in case of your early death (god forbid!) and he remarries and has kids not related to you (who would inherit it)... you need to make a will stipulating it stays in your family, since without a will, it would automatically all go to your husband. If that''s fine with you, then no worries!
THE CATCH, any time you mingle assets of any kind (e.g., he helps pay for repairs to the property you own, after you''re married) it becomes yours jointly. I''m not sure whether this is true only for a primary residence, though. So, when the time comes, you may want to see about a document of some sort if you''re still worried about it.
In fact, that''s true of most assets as far as I understand it. If you keep your money in your own, separate account, to which he has no access, it stays yours. If he never pays a dime toward the bills, the mortgage, or upkeep, then then house stays yours. Assets you go in to a marriage with stay yours IF you don''t comingle. It''s just that that gets pretty tough! Hence, the prenup.
Just a reminder: I''m not a lawyer and not 100% sure about any of this! It''s just what I remember.
THE CATCH, any time you mingle assets of any kind (e.g., he helps pay for repairs to the property you own, after you''re married) it becomes yours jointly. I''m not sure whether this is true only for a primary residence, though. So, when the time comes, you may want to see about a document of some sort if you''re still worried about it.
In fact, that''s true of most assets as far as I understand it. If you keep your money in your own, separate account, to which he has no access, it stays yours. If he never pays a dime toward the bills, the mortgage, or upkeep, then then house stays yours. Assets you go in to a marriage with stay yours IF you don''t comingle. It''s just that that gets pretty tough! Hence, the prenup.
Just a reminder: I''m not a lawyer and not 100% sure about any of this! It''s just what I remember.
diamondfan
Super_Ideal_Rock
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When we were married, we were starting out and though we were okay financially there was no need for concern about a pre-up. Now I would not consider it, as we have been married 17 years and though he is the bread winner I feel my contributions have been huge, so it is our money...that is how I see it. We were married in one state and now live in another, one had community property and I am not sure about this one...but honestly, since we do not plan to get divorced I have not given it a lot of thought! There were no heirlooms or family business issues to deal with when we were first together.
Pandora II
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bee*
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