Please Help! Retail Question :P

[ms1405]

Hey all,
I am in the market for an engagement ring and have run into a little predicament. I am torn between buying a Celebration Ring from Zales (which I understand makes some of you cry...) and buying a quality diamond and mount online. I understand that the celebration diamond is pretty pathetic in terms of clarity, color, and probably nearly everything else... but it is one of the absolute nicest looking diamonds I have ever seen. That might simply be because of the extra facets... but I guess what I''m looking for is an answer to these questions:

- Is a better quality diamond (I''m looking at colorless, VS2+, ideal cuts) going to look better than the celebration diamond and the Leo Diamond (the Leo because it has a comparable number of facets) in a side-by-side comparison? fyi the celebration and leo are both [sadly] I-SI2-vg/ex cut.
- How/why does the celebration diamond appear to be so "sparkly", for lack of a better term. Zales claims that they have "maximum brilliance, fire, and sparkle". So how is that the case when the diamond has only a mediocre quality (or is that not the case)?
- Also, if I end up buying a quality loose diamond I am going to need a mount. Considering you guys are the experts, where can I find really good quality mounts at the best prices (best online sites? best B&M places? should i stay away from either?)

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

v/r,
Matt

 

[Lula]

Hi, and welcome to Pricescope!

My first question to you, is did you look at the stones outside of jewelry store lighting?

And my second question is, have you priced out what you could get through an online vendor for the same price as what you'd be paying at Zales or for a Leo?

If you like the effect of the additional facets, you can get a similar "look" by looking for online stones that have longer lower girdle facets (let us know if you want us to post some links to stones that are cut this way).

Finally, what's your budget for the diamond? For the setting?

You've come to the right place and there's lots of people here who will help you make the right decision for you - whether it ends up being the Zales ring or one from an online vendor.

ETA: The stone looks sparkly because of the store lighting and because of the additional facets. It is the quality of the cut that gives it the sparkle, not the color or clarity (within certain limits - there are types of inclusions that will affect the sparkle). Make sure that you look at any stone outside of the jewelry store lighting to make sure it still looks good to you in other lighting.

 

[ms1405]

Hey sarapj,
I didn''t step outside the store to check the brilliance in normal lighting situations. I''ll try to do that this week sometime. But I still won''t know what to compare that diamond (viewed outside store) to...

And I have priced out what I can get online- that was part of my main question (which I didn''t ask very well): my choices are a $5500 Celebration diamond ring, with a .75ct I-SI2-vg/ex cut center stone that looks great (at least in the store), or a similar $2500 mount and a .75ct diamond that is a GIA ideal cut-F-VS2, which I''ve found for $2500 but I''ve never seen in person before. Considering these specs and the fact that I won''t be able to actually see a diamond I would buy online until after a purchase, which diamond will look better in average lighting conditions? More specifically, will the loose online diamond have noticeably better brilliance, color, etc?

So my budget is flexible, although I wouldn''t want to spend more than $5500 for the diamond and the mount together.

Also, please assume that both diamonds are exactly what they are "reported" as, as far as clarity and color. I understand that isn''t always the case.

 

[ms1405]

Also, I just read somewhere that you can determine how a diamond is cut by its measurements (because even diamonds graded by top labs have somewhat vast requirements for a diamond to qualify as "ideal"). Can anyone tell me how "ideal" the cut of my potential online diamond is? It''s measurements are: 5.75 x 5.72 x 3.54 mm

Thanks!

 

[bgray]

no offense but you are CRAZY to buy anything at ZALES. The markup for what you are getting is really high and you can do much better through one of the great vendors discussed on PRicescope for the same amount of money

 

[zabak80]

I recently concluded my diamond shopping experience. I''ve tried everywhere from Tiffanys, Zales, Kay''s and dozens of local jewelers.

My advice, use Pricescope to send out and request some quotes. Personally contact vendors from Whiteflash, Union Diamond (talked to Tony Rixiom), even Blue Nile and James Allen.

They will work very hard to get you a diamond according to your specs, most will personally inspect it, give you all the reports and data you need.

Best of all, for the same price, you will get a much bigger and better quality diamond. Order it, if you don''t like it, most have a 30 day return policy.

Don''t be afraid of buying online.

Also, don''t trust store lighting. Any diamond will look great in store lighting. The real test is in everyday, normal lighting.

 

[ms1405]

bgray that didn''t really answer any of my questions...

 

[tyty333]

Here is the short of it...look for AGS and GIA certed diamods (this info will be on the certs)...

depth 60-62%
table 54-57%
crown angle 34-35 deg
pavilion angle 40.6-41 deg
polish and symmetry very good or better
gridles - no extremes (like very thin to extra thick would be bad)

As sarap333 stated its the cut that gives it the sparkle not necessarily the color/clarity.

 

[bgray]

Date: 9/20/2009 3:52:10 PM
Author: ms1405
bgray that didn''t really answer any of my questions...

I apologize you are right. I guess I feel like if you have read enough on Pricescope to be skeptical of your own hesitations then I didnt really need to answer your questions. I think there are so many vendors here for top quality fairly priced stones as well as for a custom or stock mounting that its kind of an obvious answer............sorry didnt mean to be flippant

 

[tyty333]

You can use the pricescope diamond search engine to find stones that fit the criteria.

https://www.pricescope.com/sift.aspx

The HCA score (in green) should be <= 2.0.

EDIT - I'd be happy to point out some stones that I think are worth considering. You need one of the more experienced
PSers to give a final ok. Looks like stones that you might be interested in are $2600ish to $3000ish.

$2575
http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-2145410.htm#

$2678
https://www.pricescope.com/origin.asp?id=155&sh=88&prc=2678.0000 (Idel scope on this needs to be checked)

I was hoping to find one from James Allen also but all theirs seem to be in the low $3000. Sometimes its easier to
find the setting you want then try to get the diamond you want from the same vendor. Can you tell us what
type of setting you are looking for?

 

[ms1405]

bgray don''t worry about it. I really appreciate the advice!

can anyone speak directly (or speculate) about the visual comparison between the Celebration diamond (shiny with poor specs) and the online diamond I found (which has the aforementioned specs and falls within all of tyty333''s recommended ranges)? Thanks!

 

[tyty333]

I''m sorry ms1405 I dont know anything about the celebration diamond. I''m sure some of the more experienced folks may know something.
Can you list all that information that I gave (depth, table etc). Or can you give us the link for that type of diamond that shows that info.

 

[Lula]

Date: 9/20/2009 4:49:53 PM
Author: ms1405
bgray don't worry about it. I really appreciate the advice!


can anyone speak directly (or speculate) about the visual comparison between the Celebration diamond (shiny with poor specs) and the online diamond I found (which has the aforementioned specs and falls within all of tyty333's recommended ranges)? Thanks!

Hi, again, MS. I think I have a better idea of what you're looking for now. I went online and looked at Zales' promotional website for the Celebration diamond. It has 102 facets. What I believe you saw, and what you liked in the Celebration, is the amount of sparkle the diamond has -- did it appear to be full of small, numerous points of white sparkle and fire?

And did the salesperson at Zales compare the Celebration side-by-side with another diamond (not a Celebration cut)? And when you compared the two, did it seem like the Celebration was a lot more sparkly, again, lots and lots of small, white and colored flashes?

If so, that's what the extra facets tend to do -- give the effect of a diamond full of sparkle. It's called "pinflash."

You can get a much better cut, color, and clarity through an online vendor, for the same price as what you'd spend at Zales. You will want to follow the guidelines tyty333 gave you for the stone's dimensions, with one additional dimension -- to achieve the same type of visual appearance as the Celebration stone, you will want to look for a stone that has long lower girdle facets -- at least 80%. This will not be the exact same cut as the Celebration, because the stone will have 57 facets, not 102 facets, but the visual appearance will be similar - in my opinion.

Storm, a frequent poster on PS, who has way more knowledge in his pinky finger than I have in my entire brain about this, will correct me if I'm wrong. That's a weird analogy, but you get my point -- there are experts here on this forum who will be more than happy to help you find a stone with a lot of pinflash in it.

You will know that the stone has longer lower girdle facets if 1) the number on the AGS or GIA report is 80% or above (it's printed on the diagram of the diamond, the number inside the diamond, below the girdle) and 2) the arrows in a hearts and arrows stone with long lower girdles will be very thin in the Idealscope images and photos of the stone. I'll try to find some photos for you.

Here is a tutorial from Good Old Gold on understanding the minor facets (which is what stars and lower girdle facets are)
minor facets tutorial from GOG

Many of the online vendors have these types of stones in their inventory, so it should not be hard for you to find a stone in your price range online with the qualities of the Celebration stone.

 

[ms1405]

Thanks tyty. The specifics are:
- 0.70ct GIA cert. Ideal cut Round
- VS2/F
- Depth: 61.7%
- Table: 54%
- Excellent Symmetry
- Excellent Polish
- Girdle Thin to medium
- No Culet
- No Fluorescence
- With measurements: 5.75 x 5.72 x 3.54 mm

for $2300. Thoughts?

 

[ms1405]

Wow! Thanks a ton saraPJ... I think that answered all my questions

 

[Lula]

Great!!! I''m glad I could help.

Here''s a link to a Good Old Gold stone that shows you the "skinny arrows." Look at the AGS report and you''ll see that its lower girdle facets are 83%.

link

This stone is just an example (its size, color, clarity may not be what you want). It''s important to note that all the facets must work together -- it''s more than just finding a stone with long lower girdle facets -- check the online vendors'' inventory in your price range and post the links to any possible contenders for feedback from the people on this forum.

Or, an easier way is to send an e-mail to the online vendors with your requirements and let them assist you in finding the perfect diamond. All of the online vendors will have access to stones with these specs; however, I do believe Jonathan at Good Old Gold has a soft spot for stones with a lot of pinflash, so you might want to start with him. He posts here under the screen name of Rhino.

All of the online vendors have great options for settings, too, and often have access to more settings than you see listed on their websites.

 

[Black Jade]

If the OP likes the look of extra facets (since the Celebratioh has 102), might he not like something like the Solasfera which has 91 facets?

http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Shape/Solasfera/

there are some videos on the GOG site showing it also.
It''s something I personally have no experience with--I like the regular old 57 facet H& A but it might be something he would like to look into. there are other diamonds at good online vendors which have extra facets also--perhaps someone with more knowledge can join the discussion.

 

[Lula]

Excellent point, Black Jade.

Yes, I agree, check with Jonathan at GOG on the Solafsera, too. You can look at the stones on his site (hit the "reserve stone" button and the price will display). They do tend to be more expensive than a round brilliant, so you may need to go with a smaller carat size to fit one of those in your budget. On the other hand, you could always spend more on the stone now, get a very simple setting, and put the stone into a more expensive setting later (like for an anniversary).

 

[texaslove]

Date: 9/20/2009 5:17:45 PM
Author: sarap333

Date: 9/20/2009 4:49:53 PM
Author: ms1405
bgray don''t worry about it. I really appreciate the advice!


can anyone speak directly (or speculate) about the visual comparison between the Celebration diamond (shiny with poor specs) and the online diamond I found (which has the aforementioned specs and falls within all of tyty333''s recommended ranges)? Thanks!

Hi, again, MS. I think I have a better idea of what you''re looking for now. I went online and looked at Zales'' promotional website for the Celebration diamond. It has 102 facets. What I believe you saw, and what you liked in the Celebration, is the amount of sparkle the diamond has -- did it appear to be full of small, numerous points of white sparkle and fire?

And did the salesperson at Zales compare the Celebration side-by-side with another diamond (not a Celebration cut)? And when you compared the two, did it seem like the Celebration was a lot more sparkly, again, lots and lots of small, white and colored flashes?

If so, that''s what the extra facets tend to do -- give the effect of a diamond full of sparkle. It''s called ''pinflash.''

You can get a much better cut, color, and clarity through an online vendor, for the same price as what you''d spend at Zales. You will want to follow the guidelines tyty333 gave you for the stone''s dimensions, with one additional dimension -- to achieve the same type of visual appearance as the Celebration stone, you will want to look for a stone that has long lower girdle facets -- at least 80%. This will not be the exact same cut as the Celebration, because the stone will have 57 facets, not 102 facets, but the visual appearance will be similar - in my opinion.

Storm, a frequent poster on PS, who has way more knowledge in his pinky finger than I have in my entire brain about this, will correct me if I''m wrong. That''s a weird analogy, but you get my point -- there are experts here on this forum who will be more than happy to help you find a stone with a lot of pinflash in it.

You will know that the stone has longer lower girdle facets if 1) the number on the AGS or GIA report is 80% or above (it''s printed on the diagram of the diamond, the number inside the diamond, below the girdle) and 2) the arrows in a hearts and arrows stone with long lower girdles will be very thin in the Idealscope images and photos of the stone. I''ll try to find some photos for you.

Here is a tutorial from Good Old Gold on understanding the minor facets (which is what stars and lower girdle facets are)
minor facets tutorial from GOG

Many of the online vendors have these types of stones in their inventory, so it should not be hard for you to find a stone in your price range online with the qualities of the Celebration stone.

SaraP,

Interesting note on the pinflashes...my husband and I had noticed the same thing and never knew how to articulate it. Some of the diamonds we were shown were "sparkly" when you looked at them with lots of smaller points in them kind of like an opal (bad anaology but hopefully you understand) and others had longer "prism" looking reflections. We wonderend which one was the sign of a better diamond. Thanks!

 

[ms1405]

Hey sarapj,
Upon looking at a GIA grading report, I became a little confused

Are you sure the lower girdle facet percentage is located inside the diamond in the diagram? The highest numbers on the inside (after looking at over a dozen reports) only go up to 50%. I attached a snapshot of a sample GIA grading report diamond diagram... could someone please tell me which number is the lower girdle length (and what number it is in the pic)?

Thanks!

 

[Lula]

Whoops, soory, MS -- my bad. On GIA reports the lower girdle % number is on the left -- in this case, it's 80%.

Hope this helps!

Some other things to consider in your search:

GIA rounds its numbers (search for GIA rounding in the archives of PS and you can read a lot of threads about that).

So you really need to look at the photo of the diamond or the Idealscope or other images of the real stone to judge the "skinny-ness" of the arrows.

Thinner arrows tend to give the diamond more "pinflash." But also remember that all the angles/percentages of the cut need to work together to ensure a well-cut stone.

Does the stone you're looking at have any images of it posted along with the report? (Photos, idealscope?).

Post as much information as you can on the stones you're interested in, and people here will be happy to give you feedback.

Also, don't be shy about contacting the vendors you see recommended on this site -- they are all great to work with, and will help you locate a stone with the look you want (lots of pinflash) in your budget.

Did you take a look at the Solafsera's on Good Old Gold's site?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/21/2009 1:34:21 AM
Author: ms1405
Hey sarapj,
Upon looking at a GIA grading report, I became a little confused

Are you sure the lower girdle facet percentage is located inside the diamond in the diagram? The highest numbers on the inside (after looking at over a dozen reports) only go up to 50%. I attached a snapshot of a sample GIA grading report diamond diagram... could someone please tell me which number is the lower girdle length (and what number it is in the pic)?

Thanks!

Yes the lower girdle facet percentage is to the bottom left of the diamond, star facet percent is almost above it, in this case the values are 80% and 50% respectively.