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Pick a Diamond Out of these Three

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by AlisonD, Jun 8, 2018.

  1. AlisonD
    Rough_Rock

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    by AlisonD » Jun 8, 2018
    Been shopping around for an engagement ring with my boyfriend, and was offered these three GIA diamonds:

    GIA #: 2181695378
    6265148138
    5276310138

    Thoughts or feedback?
     
  2. SimoneDi
    Ideal_Rock

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    by SimoneDi » Jun 8, 2018
    The first one only has some potential based on GIA alone, but we like to see a lot more info before committing to a stone. It also falls outside of the preferred parameters, but it could be a nice 60/60 stone. Where are you located? Why only 3 choices? Is the high color and clarity selection due to cultural reasons? What’s the budget?
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
  3. AlisonD
    Rough_Rock

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    by AlisonD » Jun 8, 2018
    The first one being the 1.00 Carat D VS2 ?
    Should I request the idealscope image?

    I'm located in Vancouver, Canada - those were the three choices our jeweler said they could bring in to view, and would be my preferred color and clarity, and they all seem to be well proportioned per the cut estimator.

    Don't really have a budget per se. Just looking to get a nice diamond that is 1 carat.
     
  4. TreeScientist
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by TreeScientist » Jun 9, 2018
    The first and third options look decent just based on the GIA certificates alone, but the IdealScope images would definitely be helpful to evaluate them further. What are the prices on these diamonds? You may be able to find something a bit cheaper online with better cut quality.
     
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  5. TreeScientist
    Brilliant_Rock

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  6. TreeScientist
    Brilliant_Rock

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  7. Matthews1127
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Matthews1127 » Jun 9, 2018
    That E is beautiful!! :kiss2:
     
  8. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Jun 9, 2018
    For the lazy people, lol....:lol: :lol:

    5276310138.jpg 6265148138.jpg 2181695378.jpg
     
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  9. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Jun 9, 2018
    As @SimoneDi pointed out, the first stone could be a nice 60/60 stone. What that means is you will get more white light and less rainbow sparkles. While some people seek out and prefer this type of diamond, not everyone does so it's best to understand if you like that style.

    Also it would be very useful to understand your reasoning for the color & clarity. Some cultures require it; however, the reality is that a D-G will likely yield you the same results when viewing with the naked eye and might be a way to save money and/or apply that money to a better cut diamond. Same deal with clarity. Everyone's eyes have different sensitivity but generally speaking there are many SI1+ diamonds labeled as "eye clean" that really help with budget/size goals.

    All this leads us back to your budget. Knowing that helps a lot as well. My guess is that for a 1 carat, D, VS1+ stone you have a healthy budget and can probably get a super idea equal to 1 carat or larger if you have any flex in color/clarity. Not to say any of these stones aren't great, but the options available online bring top of the line diamonds to you at less cost than most local jewelers.
     
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  10. TreeScientist
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by TreeScientist » Jun 9, 2018
    Well, I agree to a certain extent, but everyone has their preferences regarding color. To say that D-G will look the same is true for the face-up position, but from the side it's pretty easy to tell a D from a G. And people often look at diamonds from the side too.

    Not that the G will look bad (G is a great compromise for color while maximizing carat weight :) ) but some people really want the highest color possible. If that's the case, then yes, I think it's good to stick with D-E diamonds.

    I would say that, for those wanting a D, an E is a great compromise if it can save you close to $500-1k, which would be the case when comparing 1 carat diamonds. It's extremely hard to tell 1 color grade apart, even from the side, and I don't know many people who could do so. I could tell the difference between a D and an F from the side at a store when I looked at them for long enough, but D and E was darn near impossible.
     
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  11. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Jun 9, 2018
    You are right @TreeScientist, it is POSSIBLE to tell a color difference so I was incorrect in stating what I did in that manner. This is exactly why color grading exists. But if I were to take 4 diamonds D-G and show them to you 4 hours apart, in random order and with no other reference point could you correctly identify them? Maybe, but I think most people would struggle greatly.

    If I narrowed that range from D-F, I think it would even be more of a struggle. My point wasn't that they are all the same, but in the real world when you a person is looking for a nice white & bright color then maybe there is some lead way. One exception being Asian culture where having a G may stick out like a sore thumb as you are likely to have many D-E contenders and comparables on a daily basis.
     
  12. TreeScientist
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by TreeScientist » Jun 9, 2018
    That's the point I was trying to make: It really only matters what you're comparing them against. For Americans, where the average color is around an H, the near colorless range is great. But if the OP is asian, and all of their friends have D-E diamonds, then a G might possibly be noticeable if they were comparing.

    Just trying to say that I totally understand why someone would choose a D, and it's good to respect people's preferences if they say they want a colorless diamond. :)
     
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  13. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Jun 9, 2018
    Some more data by the way on the 3 stones you listed....while many will not like the angles, you can see how for their respective table size, they all appear to have the prospect of being well cut.

    This said, many of us consider "well cut" to mean a hearts & arrow diamond, or super ideal cut -- myself included. For the record, here is the criteria for H&A diamonds which these stones struggle to meet:
    • Table Size: 53% To 58% (54%-57% is optimum)
    • Crown angle: range 33.4° - 36.4° (34° - 35° is optimum)
    • Pavilion Angle: range 40.2° - 41.2° (40.6° - 40.8° is optimum)
    • Lower Girdle Halve length: 75% To 80% (77% is optimum)
    • Star Facet Length: 40% To 58% (45%-50% is optimum)
    1.png 2.png 3.png
     
  14. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Jun 9, 2018
    Totally agree bud. Hopefully I didn't give off the impression I was ignoring culture. I did ask about that in my first post. Although I am American, I totally respect different cultures. I also know that many uneducated or uninformed diamond buyers just assume they need a D color stone so they don't look yellow and it's "the best". Same deal with clarity. Hell, I probably fall prey to some of this myself. I want something as white & clean as possible. I just learned it's possible to "cheat" it a little to maximize other areas if you do it wisely.
     
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  15. AlisonD
    Rough_Rock

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  16. rockysalamander
    Ideal_Rock

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    by rockysalamander » Jun 11, 2018
    1.
    https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=6197343768
    $7,596 US
    This diamond will tend to have obstruction (black or grey-out) when viewed up close. Not a great option for a ring. Eliminate.
    2.
    https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=2181908447
    $8,038 US
    Good option. Can they get you an ASET image, photo and video? You need to determine if the crystals are white/clear or black to see how visible they are.

    3.
    https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=1189801794
    $7,838 US
    Eliminate. Not complimentary angles at all. Too deep.

    If you have a bit of wiggle in your budget, you could look at a super-ideal. These have all the online images you need to judge performance and are eyeclean.
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3986335.htm
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3978022.htm

    From online vendors, you could find something similar with better videos for about $7-800 usd less. JamesAllen will post IS (idealscope) images for most of their stones. Put on hold if you like these first.
    https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...f-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5110170
    https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...f-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4189503 {needs to be cleared for the clouds, but the plotted ones are all on the edges, which is good}
     
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  17. TreeScientist
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by TreeScientist » Jun 11, 2018
    Like @rockysalamander said, #2 is a good option. It is nicely priced as well considering this is Canada. (do the prices already include VAT?) I would ask for an IdealScope image of #2 and make sure the crystals are not black.

    The options posted by @rockysalamander are also nice, but I can see why you may want to stick with a local jeweler, especially considering that this jeweler seems to be giving pretty competitive prices. :)
     
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  18. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Jun 12, 2018
    @TreeScientist brings up a good point -- does the local jeweler pricing include VAT? If so, there might be some monetary reasoning to stick with him.

    If not, then for a few hundred bucks more I'd go with a super ideal cut like @rockysalamander suggested as an alternate. Some great things about WF is you get all the images and data to make an informed decision, they have a great selection of ring settings and their trade up policy is amazing (only requires you spend $1 more, nothing else). Not to mention many here have bought from them, and you are a valued client to them and not just another dollar like many places.

    Having bought my own diamond from Brian Gavin Diamonds (BGD) I'm a little partial to them. Well known for their superior cuts. Here is one that is just gorgeous. Super ideal, 1.068ct, F, VS1...$8,800. Look at the cert, super clean! Also, it is labeled a "Blue" series diamond because it has medium fluor in it. Because of the superb cut, this will slightly enhance the color. Really love this one if you can splurge any. FYI, BGD is a superb vendor as well, and provide all images & data to make an informed decision. They make quality settings and also have a large selection. Their trade up policy isn't quite as generous as WF. BGD requires $1 more + an upgrade in 2 of these categories: color, clarity or carat.

    :love: :love: :love:
    https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.068-f-vs1-round-diamond-ags-bl-104099153014
     
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  19. AlisonD
    Rough_Rock

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    by AlisonD » Jun 12, 2018
    My local jeweler does not include VAT. If I order online, I would still have to pay VAT (plus brokerage fee) to have it shipped to me. They also offer free yearly cleaning and inspection as well as free re-sizing for life, which has some value to me. They have an online search engine here that contains most (but not all of their inventory)

    https://www.luksusdiamonds.com/diamonds/

    The search engine advanced filters appear to be limited to Table %, and doesn't seem to have options for filtering for Crown Angle, or Pavillion Angle that I can see, making it difficult to find ideal cuts.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  20. TreeScientist
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by TreeScientist » Jun 12, 2018
    I agree with @sledge. If VAT is not included in these prices, then I think that you can do better. I would still ask to see the IdealScope image for the #2 choice that you posted, as I think it could be a contender. But if the IdealScope image comes back crappy, or if the clouds are impacting light performance, then I would consider this one:

    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3994064.htm

    If you don't absolutely need to hit the 1 carat mark, then this diamond would be an excellent value. It has the same face-up size as a 1 carat, is well cut, and is extremely eye-clean (just a few small feathers on the pavilion side). And it's cheaper than the option that you were considering. :)
     
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  21. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Jun 12, 2018
    I feel kind of like a broken record I've said it so many times, but I will go ahead and echo @TreeScientist's thoughts about his alternate 0.973ct stone. When you hit "magic numbers" like 1ct, 1.5ct, etc. then there is a price premium because they are now 1 carat stones instead of almost 1 carat stones.

    Drives me silly. Like the people that buy a house for $299,900 and thought they bought in the $200's instead of the $300's. o_O

    Anyhow, my point is that depending on the cut sometimes a lower carat weight stone actually has larger measurements than a heavier carat weight stone. This isn't the case here, but the difference is very marginal. There is 0.19mm difference. At around 0.20mm we can see a slight size difference; however, it is very minimal. I commented on another post the other day about a similar situation. The difference was even less (0.13mm) and I did some basic math & references to illustrate my point. I think those apply here.

    https://www.pricescope.com/communit...-is-better-and-why.241335/page-2#post-4354851

     
  22. JLW05
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by JLW05 » Jun 12, 2018
    Would you eliminate #1 diamond due to the 40.6 pavilion? Recently, I helped my future son-in-law choose a diamond and we settled on a WF ACA with a 34.9 crown angle and a 40.6 pavilion angle. I haven't noticed any black or grey-out but I have seen this on other diamonds I have considered buying and have never quite understood what caused this to occur, especially since these diamonds were within recommended range for ideal cut stones.
     
  23. TreeScientist
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    by TreeScientist » Jun 12, 2018
    ACAs are graded by AGS. AGS is more precise with their measurements of crown and pavilion angles, and provide the average to the nearest 0.1 degree. GIA is a little bit looser with their measurements and rounds the averages to the nearest 0.2 degrees and 0.5 degrees for PA and CA, respectively. Most of the problems with obstruction occur when the pavilion mains dip below 40.5 degrees (actually 40.45 degrees), especially in stones with a lower crown height.

    In the case of the AGS graded stone that your SIL picked out, it is very unlikely that any of the pavilion mains dipped below 40.45 degrees (you could check the Sarin Report provided with ACAs to see, but it is highly unlikely gien the precision cut of superideals), and you also know that the average for the crown angle is actually 34.9 degrees. For a GIA graded diamond with 40.6 PA and 34.5 CA, the actual average could be closer to 40.51/34.26 (which would be rounded to 40.6/34.5 for the GIA report) and with an average PA of 40.51 there could be a few of the individual pavilion mains that drop below 40.45 if the symmetry is not top-notch.

    That's why, without being able to see all of the scope images (IS and ASET) and also being able to check a stone in person against a stone that doesn't exhibit obstruction (in which case you need to know what you're looking for), I think it is safest to stick with a PA of 40.8 for GIA-graded diamonds. Then you know that the average actually falls somewhere between 40.71 and 40.89, which will work well for CAs between 34 and 35, and you also know that you won't have any potential problems with obstruction or leakage as you might have with GIA-rounded 40.6 or 41.0 pavilion angles, respectively. Although 40.6/35.5 can be very nice in GIA-graded diamonds if the cut is on point. :)

    So long story short, your SILs AGS-graded stone is fine, which is why you're not seeing the "blacking-out" in that diamond.
     
  24. rockysalamander
    Ideal_Rock

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    by rockysalamander » Jun 12, 2018
    What @TreeScientist said...plus, it about how all the angles work together. The issue with the stone above is that the pairing of a 34.5 CA and 40.6 PA. If that PA was really 40.8 or the CA 35.5, it would be a better pairing. With GIA averaging, I tend to be more cautious of stones that might fail on close viewing.
     
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  25. JLW05
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    by JLW05 » Jun 12, 2018
    Thanks to the both of you for your explanations.
     
  26. rockysalamander
    Ideal_Rock

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    by rockysalamander » Jun 12, 2018
    This is actually not always true. Diamond prices are so much more complex than the 4 Cs. They can vary due to the size/location/type of inclusion, the cost to the retailer for the cut stone, labor costs, the size category/desirability of the stone, the time it has spent in inventory, shortages along the supply chain, etc. These all change daily so that each round of stones is influenced by different factors that go into the whole price to a retail vendor + the retail vendors factors. It is always worth looking at these factors if you have two otherwise identical or acceptable stones, but I find cost/mm of spread to be much more useful than the cost/weight. Nobody is going to weigh your diamond. They will see the spread.

    On color, the ability to see color is very individual, just as individual as how far or close you can see and how much peripheral vision you have. You should personally look at GIA graded diamond individually (don't sit them next to each other) and make up your mind about color. Most can reliably start to see body color from the side at I. Most cannot see the difference between D, E and F without comparing among them. But, some absolutely can. If you are a trained observer of fine details or artist, you may fall into the color acute category. Just remember that seeing color and being bothered by it are quite different. For many, the choice may be between color and size once you find a few choice with 'acceptable' clarity. Many PS member have J and K stones and love them. Others really want that D or E. Many PS members have eye-clean SI2 stones and I am among them in that...I don't worry so much about the grading as why the stone was graded as it was.

    Super-ideals are better at hiding color from the top. My theory is that is a side-product of the strong fire and light return. The high energy fire causes your pupils to contract...that makes discerning color quite difficult. Think about going out to the garden on a bright sunny day. You pick two matching purple flower....they match until you go inside and realize they are totally different colors. If you choose a setting with a detailed gallery, it can also make seeing body color quite difficult. So, thinking about the setting can help relax your criteria too.
     
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  27. AlisonD
    Rough_Rock

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  28. TreeScientist
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    by TreeScientist » Jun 13, 2018
    Way too leaky under the table, parts of the girdle are dug out, and there is too much obstruction around the arrow shafts. In short, it is a poorly cut diamond. Definitely pass on this one.
     
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  29. ringo865
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by ringo865 » Jun 13, 2018
    Stay within the ranges sledge gave you far above. This one is not good. You can practically see thru it. (Good for a window, but not for a diamond -or a mirror, which is what a correctly cut diamond should be like).
     

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