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Pediatricians are 'firing' anti-vax parents

Discussion in 'Hangout' started by kenny, Sep 15, 2016.

  1. kenny
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    by kenny » Sep 15, 2016
    I see this as good and bad.
    Good because it sends a message to these nut-jobs that they are unworthy of being associated with, and good because it protects everyone who walks into that doctor's office from the contagious-disease incubators (aka children) of these nut-jobs.
    Bad because it ends the opportunity to educate how, overall, odds are, vaccines protect their kid and increases herd immunity.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/09/07/new_pediatrics_study_says_doctors_are_disimissing_anti_vaxxer_patients.html?utm_content=inf_10_2641_2&wpsrc=socialedge&tse_id=INF_edbfbe707ae311e6bf8e470556fe0b22

    Partial snip:
    "More pediatricians are dismissing patients from their practices when parents refuse to vaccinate children, according to a study published in the journal Pediatrics in August.

    The researchers compared national surveys conducted by the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2006 and 2013 to measure how doctors’ experiences dealing with the issue of childhood vaccination have changed.
    They found that 6.1 percent of pediatricians in 2006 reported that they “always” asked intransigently anti-vaccine families to take their kids elsewhere; that number had nearly doubled, to 11.7 percent, by the time the 2013 survey was taken.

    This could have something to do with the fact that more doctors are coming into contact with vaccine refusers.
    In the more recent survey, 87 percent of pediatricians said they’d has to deal with vaccine refusals; in 2006, only 75 percent said they’d encountered the problem."
     
    


    


  2. House Cat
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    by House Cat » Sep 15, 2016
    I once read a paper written by a pediatrician who fires non vaxxing parents. The most compelling argument he made was that non vaccinated children would come into contact with infants that were too young to be vaccinated in his waiting room and he wasn't willing to risk this vulnerable population.
     
  3. msop04
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    by msop04 » Sep 15, 2016
    Exactly... the physician is protecting his patients. That is all.
     
  4. StephanieLynn
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    by StephanieLynn » Sep 15, 2016
    Well, I will get heat for this but I wasn't fired from my kids practice. I left willingly.

    I do not consider myself an anti-vax "nut job" because my oldest did receive some of his shots, therefore I started as a vaccinating parent. My oldest son got measles from his MMR shot, this was confirmed by his pediatrician and he was sent home, they never told me he could spread it to other kids. After another doctor reviewed his medical records, they found the lot numbers were not recorded so there would be no way to track the vaccines he got. They completely failed him and us.

    Put a label on parents that don't vaccinate or selectively vaccinate but until you experience a vaccine injury or adverse event you will never understand that the statistics they give, one in a million, is not even close and even so when your kid is the one, the statistics don't matter anymore.
     
    


    


  5. momhappy
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    by momhappy » Sep 15, 2016
    ^How could a doctor confirm that a case of measles came from a vaccine? I know it sounds unlikely, but wouldn't there still be a possibility that your child was actually exposed to measles before getting the vaccine? I have read that sometimes people can get a mild, non-contagious rash after an MMR vaccine. We would be dealing with far more cases of disease if that were true just based on the number of vaccines that are administered.
    My family has dealt with an adverse effect from a vaccine, but that hasn't changed the fact that we get the required vaccines as scheduled (plus the flu vaccine every year).
     
  6. StephanieLynn
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    by StephanieLynn » Sep 15, 2016
    It was the day following his MMR shot. They told me it was from the vaccine because apparently they can distinguish between a wild infection and a vaccine induced infection. In any case that is very unusual from what I was told. Again this is all what I was told from doctors in his pediatric practice.
     
  7. canuk-gal
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    by canuk-gal » Sep 15, 2016




    huh? Emphasis on Statistics. huh?
     
  8. StephanieLynn
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    by StephanieLynn » Sep 15, 2016


    Referring to the theory that vaccines are so safe that the risk of vaccine injury is rare, one in a million.
     
  9. momhappy
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    by momhappy » Sep 15, 2016
    This is why it's so important to do your own research. The rash occurs in about 5% of cases and it's not a full-blown case of measles. For me personally, that alone would not be enough for me to quit vaccinating, but I understand that we all make choices that we think are best for our families.
     
  10. KaeKae
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    by KaeKae » Sep 16, 2016
    I suppose I should be grateful that my youngest is about to turn 18 and we've already left the pediatric office who has given us grief about the one vaccine I refuse to give her and refused to finish giving my older child.

    DD1 is among those who have a vaccine injury from Gardasil. A bad reaction right after the vaccination. Seizures, migraines, started shortly after the second dose of Gardasil. Doctor "agreed to disagree" when I chose not to allow the last booster.

    THEN that same doctor attempted to go over my head with my second daughter. She told DD2 that she could have the vaccine anyway, even without my agreement. DD2 told her: no, my sister started having seizures after Gardsil.

    Fired her after that appointment. Only used the practice for sick visits, then moved daughter over to my doctor, who has not brought up Gardasil. DD1 sees a doctor at her school, mostly, as she's across the country at college.

    I have since learned there are many questions about the vaccination schedule now expected of a baby born today. However, my kids are done with that, so I leave the questions to those involved and in the know.
     
    


    


  11. monarch64
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    by monarch64 » Sep 16, 2016
    I vax but I do not consider those who don't to be "nutjobs." Every single thing about parenting is a huge decision and in my opinion parents who choose not to vax are sincerely of the mind that they are looking out for the best interests of their child/children. I may not like it or agree with it and of course I worry about it, but the name calling approach leads nowhere and every human has the right to make decisions on their minors' behalf as they see fit until the government intervenes. Sorry, I know that's not what people like to hear, but it's how I feel.

    I hate this debate, because it is not conducive to open communication in real life. It only serves to cause some people who don't vax not to admit they don't. And THAT causes a worse problem. I want to know who isn't vaxxed and I won't know that if someone is ostracized to the point they don't even talk about it. That includes neighbors, community members, etc. Keeping an open dialogue is key.

    ETA: That said, pediatricians are business owners or in the business to make money. If a family or parent decides not to buy into everything they're told, well, the pediatrician loses money, doesn't she/he? So, it kind of follows that the ped would "fire" the parent(s) or refuse to do business with them, doesn't it? What a bullshit, sensationalist headline. :nono:
     
  12. Trekkie
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    by Trekkie » Sep 16, 2016
    I am with Kenny here. By and large, they're nut jobs. Science denying nut jobs.

    The husband of one of the more vocal anti-vaxx moms on my mommy group passed away earlier this week after contracting chicken pox.
     
  13. momhappy
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    by momhappy » Sep 16, 2016
    I vax and prefer others do as well, but I don't feel comfortable labeling all those who don't as nutjobs.
     
  14. StephanieLynn
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    by StephanieLynn » Sep 16, 2016
    Isn't labeling a group a form of bullying? I mean what really is being accomplished by labeling those who don't vax?

    Do we only become nut job science deniers when we refuse a shot or the whole schedule, I mean there are people who don't believe in the flu shot for example so are they anti science?

    I believe in science, I also believe in the very real possibility of a serious vaccine injury such as when a child gets a shot and starts seizing almost immediately. You can't just spin science to support your point of view. The science is that there are kids who can handle the shots and kids who can't because of genetic makeup. Do they have a way of identifying those children? No. So you are expected to take one for the team and hope for the best. Yet those who even question vaccines are immediately labeled and shamed. Something is s wrong with that line of thinking IMO.
     
  15. asscherisme
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    by asscherisme » Sep 16, 2016
    KaeKae, wait, the doctor tried to convince your MINOR child to get a vaccine knowing you didn't want it? That's illegal! I have vaccinated my children, and yes my kids did get gardasil and thankfully had no reaction. But that was my decision as a parent. I would be beyond livid if a doctor tried to talk my child into something against my wishes. Whatever side someone is on with the vaccinations a doctor has no right to try and go around a parent directly to the child!!
     
    


    


  16. telephone89
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    by telephone89 » Sep 16, 2016
    IF I had kids, which I don't, you bet I'd be choosing my clinic based on this! I think that's wonderful. The antivaxxers can go sip their disease curing tea elsewhere, and leave the clinic to the relative safety of herd immunity. If I KNEW that a clinic allowed antivaxxers and their kids, I'd probably avoid taking my new born/immune compromised kid there.

    Same principle as not letting unvaxxed kids into your home to meet the new baby. Does it suck for the child to be punished for their parents actions? Yes, absolutely. But the parents are the ones who are supposed to be responsible. And to allow unvaxxed children around immune compromised/too young/or other communities unable to receive the vax is just irresponsible.
     
  17. ksinger
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    by ksinger » Sep 16, 2016
    Yeah, I recently took the booster for whooping cough, but there are some I can't take a booster for - specifically, measles. Since my initial measles vaccination very likely fell in that 1963-67 killed virus window, and I have no info as to what I received, according to the CDC, I need a booster with live virus. But I have a compromised immune system, so not happening.

    So, your child may be an utter joy and cute as a button, but if he/she is unvaccinated, I'll pass on hanging with the darling little disease vector, thanks.

    Under the heading of anti-vaxxers with an axe to grind, a younger friend of mine who recently had a baby (coming up on the the big ONE!) told a tale of being chatted up by a woman who was charmed by her shameless flirt of a son. "OMG! He's just adorable!" (and he truly is) "And I can tell you aren't vaccinating because he's so healthy and happy!!" (Inwardly shocked and annoyed by the comment, but sweetly, because she's always sweet in a pinch), "No. No, he's been getting all his vaccinations on schedule, actually." crickets.....
     
  18. msop04
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    by msop04 » Sep 16, 2016
    I'd say it's more to protect their patients than it is for money. But, if you want to think of it that way... the vast majority of parents don't want their children (sick or well) to be around those who aren't vaccinated. Offices who only accept children who are on schedule for all appropriate vaccinations would be a huge plus, increasing business.

    My child's pediatric group will flat out refuse a patient whose parents won't agree to vaccinate their children, which is one of the reasons I chose this group for her. It's about the safety of other children. Also, the daycare she attends requires all enrolled children show proof of vaccination schedules before being accepted -- they also follow up to make sure each child's parents keep the vaccinations up to date.
     
  19. telephone89
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    by telephone89 » Sep 16, 2016
    That's SO weird to say! I wonder if she was trying some reverse psychology or something haha. Damn those antivaxxers, getting crafty!

    I'm sorry to hear about your compromised immunity :( Glad to hear you are able to take precautions to protect yourself though.
     
  20. E B
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    by E B » Sep 16, 2016
    This is plenty reasonable. It's scary enough taking a vulnerable newborn out, but about a ten times more so into a doctor's office.
     
  21. msop04
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    by msop04 » Sep 16, 2016
    Agreed.
     
  22. Tekate
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    by Tekate » Sep 16, 2016

    My mom was fired by her doctor when she wouldn't have a biopsy for her lung cancer... physicians don't want to be responsible.. I say good for the physicians!
     
  23. cmd2014
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    by cmd2014 » Sep 17, 2016
    Most physicians and other health care providers will tell you that this is also an issue of trust and the development of a therapeutic relationship. If you don't trust your health care provider's advice, then they cannot be effective in treating you, as you are unlikely to comply with their treatment recommendations.
     
  24. lknvrb4
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    by lknvrb4 » Sep 17, 2016
    I was extremely upset when DD got her 6th grade physical this year, they told her she was getting three shots, I knew that she was required to get only two for school. I asked what the third one was and it was Gardasil. I told the nurse she would not be getting it and when the doctor came in she she DD would be getting 3 shots and I told her no as well, she would not get the Gardasil. When I got my shot information packet they had already stapled the Gardasil info to the rest of the shots. Gardasil is not something I am comfortable with her getting. I felt like they were being sneaky with Gardasil and not really informing the parents that this was not a requirement for school.
     
  25. monarch64
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    by monarch64 » Sep 17, 2016
    Doesn't every daycare/preschool require immunization records and check to make sure they're up to date? I honestly don't know. Our child's school and former daycare both require them, but maybe it varies by state. I don't want to think of doctors that way, re peds and business practices. I just wanted to make the point that there is another side to the concept of "firing" anti-vax parents. I'm sure you're right and it's primarily for the good of the patients.
     
  26. KaeKae
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    by KaeKae » Sep 17, 2016
    Thank you so much for the supportive words. Yes, I would have thought it was illegal, too, but apparently it can be done, in CA, anyway. I was furious. Probably should have gone in and made a stink. Maybe call the local paper. But, I simply chose to leave the practice. It took me a while. Thankfully, DD2 rarely gets sick.

    I do hear from more and more parents who are choosing not to go with the Gardasil, so more must be questioning the safety or success of the vaccine.

    Please know, I do not make light of any of this. I recognize vaccines have made great improvements in eradicating some terrible diseases, and my girls had everything else on the vax schedule. But then I learned the hard way that vaccine injury is a real possibility, and due to the nature of Gardisil, we don't know yet exactly how some patients will be effected down the line. (Infertility is one worry.)
     
  27. diamondseeker2006
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    by diamondseeker2006 » Sep 17, 2016
    Oh, I know 2 girls with serious vaccine injury from Gardasil, too. I absolutely refused that vaccine for my college age daughter when they offered it because I had read of problems. I am terribly sorry you found out in such a horrible way that there are problems with that vaccine.

    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/854469#vp_1

    My children had all the immunizations required for school. But today, there are many more immunizations required to be given at one time. My daughter selected a wonderful pediatrician who allows parents to make the decision to spread out the shots rather than give them exactly according to the schedule. The vaccines may have been studied individually, but there have not been studies for the effects of giving a combination of several at one time.

    This is all about money and why I don't always trust the recommendations. Did you all know that Blue Cross Blue Shield gives a monetary bonus to doctors who get their patients to have a certain number of vaccines by a certain age? I think that is disgusting. My children and grandchildren had no need as newborns in the hospital to have a Hep B vaccine, for example. There is no problem waiting on that one unless family or caretakers have Hep B.

    Parents should study any treatment recommended for their children. For that matter, we should study any drug prescribed for ourselves or our children before taking it. Many or most doctors don't spend too much time explaining the potentially serious side effects of vaccines or medications.

    To be clear, I am NOT anti-vax. I am for educated parents who use wisdom and knowledge in vaccinating.
     
  28. KaeKae
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    by KaeKae » Sep 18, 2016
    This is how I feel as well.

    I should have added above that in a way, we got lucky. After a couple years, DD1 stopped having seizures. Or rather, breakthough seizures, as at 21 she is still taking the meds. She also started getting migraines back then, and they have slowed down, too. Please understand, when I say "lucky" it is in a sense that many young girls have had even more serious reactions.

    In addition, I am looking forward to the day when doctors like your daughter's pediatrician can give a solid report on the effects of spreading out vaccinations. As some one who works in spec ed, in addition to my daughter's troubles, I would love for their to be a very positive outcome, so that we can protect our children, both from disease and vaccine injury.
     
  29. icekid
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  30. shaggy1
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    by shaggy1 » Sep 18, 2016
    As someone who nearly died from chickenpox contracted as an adult, my opinions on people who refuse vaccinations cannot be printed in a public forum.
     

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