Ovals and windowing?

[Isitalladream]

Hi everyone, after a long search and many diamonds, I thought I had really figured out the specs and things to look out for. My diamonds proportions are excellent and there was no visible bow tie. However, I picked it up a couple days ago from controller and I'm noticing that you can see the band behind the diamond very clearly.

I took it to the appraiser, who taught me about windowing said it was a common thing for all fancy cuts. She said that all fancy cut diamonds, including ovals, have them and that my stone had all the right specs. Is that true? Was this unavoidable? I don't feel like I've seen this in my friend's rings before but I might not have been looking as closely. I feel like it's very obvious when I look at it and take photos head on. I'm still within the return window, should I do it? Is it possible to find an oval diamond without this?

 

[lovedogs]

Hi everyone, after a long search and many diamonds, I thought I had really figured out the specs and things to look out for. My diamonds proportions are excellent and there was no visible bow tie. However, I picked it up a couple days ago from controller and I'm noticing that you can see the band behind the diamond very clearly.

I took it to the appraiser, who taught me about windowing said it was a common thing for all fancy cuts. She said that all fancy cut diamonds, including ovals, have them and that my stone had all the right specs. Is that true? Was this unavoidable? I don't feel like I've seen this in my friend's rings before but I might not have been looking as closely. I feel like it's very obvious when I look at it and take photos head on. I'm still within the return window, should I do it? Is it possible to find an oval diamond without this?

I don't see a window, but I see a bowtie. Is that what you're seeing? It's almost unavoidable with ovals, but you can definitely find stones with a less ovbious one. The only oval I know with absolutely zero bowtie is the ideal cut from Jon at AV diamonds.

It's definitely not true that all fancy cuts have Windows.

 

[OoohShiny]

+1 to Lovedogs' post.

Ovals without windowing or bow-tie effect are quite hard to find but they are out there, and the August Vintage Inc. offerings now include vintage ovals and 'Elyque' ovals, the former of which has chunky faceting and the latter of which utilised facet patterning nearer to that of a Modern Round Brilliant, I believe. Both are designed to have excellent light performance and remove most, if not all, bow-tie effect. They are more expensive and can face up smaller for a given carat weight because they are quite deep, but the depth is needed to provide the performance.

 

[OoohShiny]

AVInc Signature Vintage Oval:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B11kWcaHIqe/

Elyque Oval:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BxoMZR_jdeJ/

 

[Isitalladream]

That's interesting that you say it's appetite, both the Jeweler and independent appraiser swore up and down there wasn't a bowtie. The appraiser was the one who said it was windowing, because you can see the band beneath. I can definitely see the yellow gold. What makes you call it bowtie instead?

What can I look out for specs wise to reduce it? Is it depth? I'll look into these other cuts, but I am a little hesitant to have something new like that!

 

[AV_]

I see a bowtie. I assume that you see the band through the pavilion when the stone is tilted away from you, & this is almost avoidable in diamonds.

The 'Excellent' proportions do not account for such details of the play of light in oval diamonds.

It is possible to find a stone without such details, quite likely without 'Excellent' proportions. Not sure how to help, since the one good method to choose is to look at stones - or very good pictures & videos of them.

 

[lovedogs]

There's 100% a bowtie. I don't see a window from this pics, but if you take clearer ones that show how you can see the band under the stone then that might help clarify.

I honestly don't know how anyone could look at the stone and say there's no bowtie.

 

[Rose-gold-or-bust]

Do you have a video link to your diamond before it was set?

Also, it sounds like the appraiser doesn’t understand window from bow tie. I’m mostly new to this forum but windows are more often discussed with colored stones. I know diamonds can have them too but I see the term a lot more in reference to colored stones.

With an oval, the best facets are right in the middle so I’m not even sure that is wear you’d see a window.

 

[OoohShiny]

That's interesting that you say it's appetite, both the Jeweler and independent appraiser swore up and down there wasn't a bowtie. The appraiser was the one who said it was windowing, because you can see the band beneath. I can definitely see the yellow gold. What makes you call it bowtie instead?

What can I look out for specs wise to reduce it? Is it depth? I'll look into these other cuts, but I am a little hesitant to have something new like that!

As AV_ has mentioned, good macro pictures and, preferably, good videos are needed to really assess Ovals!

If you are happy to post your budget and preferred stone specifications, we would be happy to help look for options for you

 

[Wewechew]

That’s absolutely a bowtie.

 

[tyty333]

Unfortunately, there are no specs that will tell you whether an oval has a bow-tie or not. You have to look with your eyes and know what to look for.

You certainly want to minimize any dark area going through the center of the stone as well as any "mushy" areas outside of the center.
Without better up-close pictures its hard to say what your stone is doing. Can you tell us where you got it? Did you get it from a PS
vendor where we can help you pick out a stone or did you get it from a local jeweler?

If it is bothering you and it sounds like it does then I suggest you return it (like to know where you got it first). The hunt for a new one could
be difficult if you are working with a local jeweler (finding nice ovals is difficult).

 

[FreeDiam]

in my opinion it looks great.

 

[Isitalladream]

Thanks everyone, here's closer photos and some videos. Now that I'm really focusing in I think it is a bowtie! I'm so angry I trusted the jeweler when he said it wasn't one.

Would you say it's a prominent one or not? I know they have some bowtie but is it possible to get a more minimal one? My budget is about 10k and I'm looking for lab diamonds. Hoping for about 1.5 carats, eye clean about G color. Thanks everyone for making me take my head out of the sand!

http://imgur.com/a/ZKB25gu

 

[more-Sparkle]

Hi!

My two cents, for what it's worth, I think your diamond is beautiful. Looks a lot like mine!

What size stone do you have now and color?

I think, and from what I have read on PS, all ovals (except for AV ovals) will have a bow tie. It's just a matter of severity. I don't think yours it too prominent. Ultimately though, like what most will say, you are the one that will be wearing it and looking at it everyday. If you don't love it, then change it. If it doesn't bother you too much, then enjoy it.
Will your jeweler let you exchange it for full value or upgrade?
I think it looked great in the video and saw minimal bowtie effect.

 

[Rose-gold-or-bust]

If it bothers you - return it. You are the one looking at it all the time and need to be happy.

Is it always like this or just in some lighting?
My oval only showed a narrow bow tie in bright lighting but inside it was fine.

If you are looking at lab diamonds though - this should go in MMD section. Is there a reason you are not looking for natural diamonds? Or just trying to maximize size vs. budget?

 

[AV_]

Lab stones could be cut to order.

 

[OoohShiny]

I would echo comments above - if it bothers you now, it will continue to bother you, so you should return it and move on to an alternative option.

As mentioned, we'll need to either move this thread into the Lab Grown section to discuss MMDs or you could start a new thread with your search parameters

To save you time looking, and as @AV_ has mentioned, you could custom cut an MMD - the AV vintage ovals look to be around $11k for 2ct / 9mm x 6.4mm, so I imagine the Elyque ovals should be similarly priced:
https://augustvintageinc.com/collec...grown-diamond-by-rhino?variant=29176792449129

It should be noted that going the Custom Cut route will likely mean a 'No refunds available' scenario (that is the stated AVInc position, at least) so if you do opt for an AVInc stone, you could perhaps order one from Inventory to see if you like the performance, on the basis you could return it and get a Custom Cut made?

I am guessing, though - definitely speak to @Rhino / Jonathon to confirm potential options if you are interested in going the AVInc route!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Interesting discussion!
@Isitalladream - before anything else, please allow me to share my experience as a diamond photographer, as it applies to ovals.
They are extremely difficult to capture for a number of reasons.
The camera ( phone) is going to reflect off the larger facets in a manner that can make a stone with a *positive bowtie look like a negative bowtie.
To get the diamond in focus you'll need a lot of light which can distort the actual appearance.

all ovals (except for AV ovals) will have a bow tie

I totally get how someone can get this impression reading some threads on this forum. However, it's not the case.
1) not all ( non branded) ovals have bowties. Some stones are cut with a few additional facets on the bottom creating an entirely different sort of sparkle pattern- Oval Modified Brilliant, as classified by the GIA. Even if we consider "Oval Brilliant" stones- not all will have a negative bow tie.
As opposed to a round diamond, an oval offers exponentially more combinations of facet size and shape, crown and pavilion angle. On a round brilliant, you can divide the circle into 8 perfectly equal slices to create hearts and arrows. With an oval shaped outline, there's' no way you can divide it into 8 or 6 equally.
Which means that predicting anything at all from a GIA report is a futile exercise.
2) Some stones that may appear to have dark areas in the middle in pictures may be very pretty in person.
When viewed as one looks at a diamond - with your eyes, about 12-24 inches away- the areas that appear dark in certain pictures, will light up and actually be quite bright. That would be what I called a "positive bow tie"
But its's also absolutely true that a percentage of both Oval Brilliant and modified Brilliant diamond have static dark "bow tie" sections.

None of us can really tell which your diamond is with the evidence at hand IMO.
Best of luck- and enjoy your diamond, whichever it may be!!

 

[distracts]

Here’s a little picture I made for someone else showing several different types of ovals. The first is the August Vintage Elqyque by @Rhino, the second is one from @Rockdiamond with no bow tie, the third is a minimal bow tie, and the fourth is a pretty standard one. The third and fourth are basically the same “type” of oval, but different enough so the bow tie is minimized in one and not the other. Only the first one is a branded cut.

If it bothers you enough to exchange but you still want an oval, it’s good to look at videos of a few different types to decide which kind you like most.

 

[Rose-gold-or-bust]

Here’s a little picture I made for someone else showing several different types of ovals. The first is the August Vintage Elqyque by @Rhino, the second is one from @Rockdiamond with no bow tie, the third is a minimal bow tie, and the fourth is a pretty standard one. The third and fourth are basically the same “type” of oval, but different enough so the bow tie is minimized in one and not the other. Only the first one is a branded cut.

If it bothers you enough to exchange but you still want an oval, it’s good to look at videos of a few different types to decide which kind you like most.

I think this is where bow ties get confusing too. This bright area in the middle that you show has been referred to as a bow tie by some but I find most people refer this the big black section as a bow tie. I feel like this is where you get into the bad bow tie (black tie) vs. typical bow tie (normal bright area seen in most ovals). I, not saying that you example is a good stone, just that bow ties can be much more worse and I think the kind people really want to avoid are the black kind

 

[distracts]

I think this is where bow ties get confusing too. This bright area in the middle that you show has been referred to as a bow tie by some but I find most people refer this the big black section as a bow tie. I feel like this is where you get into the bad bow tie (black tie) vs. good bow tie (normal bright area seen in most ovals)

The bright area will be black at many angles. Rings aren't always viewed from directly straight on with lightbox setups - in the example image I posted, if you tilt that stone to the angle you'd be viewing it while typing at a computer, say, that whole white bow tie was black. There are some bow ties that WILL look bright at many angles and sparkle well, but that particular one does not because all the bow tie facets turn off and on at the same time, vs alternating, and provide a huge (negative) contrast to the mushy facets at the end. You can find standard ovals where the bow tie facets sparkle well and it's never entirely off (which usually means it's never entirely on either) and where the end facets are either crushed ice or chunkier and either way scintillate a lot more than the mushiness of some have.

From this example posted in the other current oval thread, you can see an oval where the center facets are not blinking on and off together but scintillating, imo an example of a good bow tie: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/oval-cut/3.08-carat-f-color-vs2-clarity-sku-6612651

 

[Rose-gold-or-bust]

The bright area will be black at many angles. Rings aren't always viewed from directly straight on with lightbox setups - in the example image I posted, if you tilt that stone to the angle you'd be viewing it while typing at a computer, say, that whole white bow tie was black. There are some bow ties that WILL look bright at many angles and sparkle well, but that particular one does not because all the bow tie facets turn off and on at the same time, vs alternating, and provide a huge (negative) contrast to the mushy facets at the end. You can find standard ovals where the bow tie facets sparkle well and it's never entirely off (which usually means it's never entirely on either) and where the end facets are either crushed ice or chunkier and either way scintillate a lot more than the mushiness of some have.

From this example posted in the other current oval thread, you can see an oval where the center facets are not blinking on and off together but scintillating, imo an example of a good bow tie: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/oval-cut/3.08-carat-f-color-vs2-clarity-sku-6612651

Super helpful explanation, thank you.