our own John Pollard in a AGS podcast advertisement

[Richard Sherwood]

As much as I prefer the AGS to GIA, I also acknowledge that GIA also helps people to make choices. I just have a hard time seeing anything wrong with this, especially in an industry as plagued with charletons as ours has become.
Wink

I'm curious if you regard the jewelry business as being more plagued with charlatans than most any other profession?

My own take on it is that it's about the same percentage as most any other profession. You could say the same about the medical profession for example. "Plagued with charlatans." Or the legal profession. "Plagued with charlatans." And the figures would probably bear you out.

No better, no worse. Just carnal human nature at work, no matter what the profession.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/23/2008 12:57:47 PM
Author: Wink

As John has shown you and others with actual numbers from actual on line available stones there are only a small percentage of stones with the AGS 0 lable so obviousy the manufacturers are NOT producing only the best looking stones to sell.

They are of course producing what works for them. You keep trying to create the bogey man, and he is NOT real.

Again..., this comment??

Date: 8/23/2008 12:57:47 PM
Author: Wink

Fortunately for me and for others who wish to sell these wonderful stones most of the consumers will not be as upset about having a guideline as you would like them to be. It is a guideline, and a DARN GOOD ONE, for those who are looking to buy a dependably incredible looking round brilliant or princess cut diamond. It has NOTHING to do with the new diamonds you wish to create, nor will it harm them in their sales or production.

RE> Wink you forgot to add:

", for those who are looking to buy a "...LIMITED RANGE BUT... "dependably incredible looking round brilliant or princess cut diamond"

Date: 8/23/2008 12:57:47 PM
Author: Wink

P.S. The good fact is that it is highly unlikely that you can add a tenth of a carat to a parcel of diamonds and still get the AGS 0 cut grade, specifically if they are not as good looking. The AGS 0 cut grade is not designed to reward poor looking diamonds. (In a parcel of one carats for example, who knows what you might add to a parcel of twenty carats)

Here I agree with you...., in the Princess Cuts (for example)..., most I have seen are cut to the MAX or close to it...

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/23/2008 1:04:19 PM
Author: Wink

Might it be Garry that more people prefer rounds because the shape of the round lets it return more light because of the physics of light science, and what most people want from a diamond is sparkle. (And of course for many, size.)

Is it possible that rounds just tend to be what most people like> Nolthing wrong with liking a beautiful diamond. Nor is there anything wrong in preferring any other shape. Personal taste is personal taste. Having decided on a shape, is there anything wrong in wanting help to know that you are not being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous vendor?

As much as I prefer the AGS to GIA, I also acknowledge that GIA also helps people to make choices. I just have a hard time seeing anything wrong with this, especially in an industry as plagued with charletons as ours has become.

Wink

Wink..., please have some respect for the industry and the members of our industry!

I beg you to stop showing the bad to show your good intentions..., it is sounding like a joke already and does not help any of us!

Please....

 

[risingsun]

Date: 8/23/2008 1:08:16 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/22/2008 6:24:01 PM
Author: whatmeworry
Relying on AGS, HCA, Sarin, Aset, GEMEX, 5 star ratings instead of your own eye and own definition of beauty hurts consumers in the long run. If someone bought a diamond that they thought was beautiful and the market agreed, then the consumer is paying the going rate. But if you bought something that you thought was beautiful but the market disagreed, then the consumer, just got a bargain.

True, so long as he never wants to resell it.

Wink

And as long as she doesn't want to purchase her diamond online. Thanks for weighing in on this thread, Wink. It has become pure sophistry

In my field you can discuss theoretical approaches to treating mental illness, but when the patient enters your office you do what is necessary to help them at that time. The most elegant theory won't prevent a negative outcome if you cannot implement it in the here and now. That doesn't mean we stop clinical research, but we do use the tools that are available to us.

 

[whatmeworry]

Date: 8/23/2008 1:39:17 PM
Author: risingsun

Date: 8/23/2008 1:08:16 PM

Author: Wink

Date: 8/22/2008 6:24:01 PM

Author: whatmeworry

Relying on AGS, HCA, Sarin, Aset, GEMEX, 5 star ratings instead of your own eye and own definition of beauty hurts consumers in the long run. If someone bought a diamond that they thought was beautiful and the market agreed, then the consumer is paying the going rate. But if you bought something that you thought was beautiful but the market disagreed, then the consumer, just got a bargain.

True, so long as he never wants to resell it.


Wink

And as long as she doesn''t want to purchase her diamond online. Thanks for weighing in on this thread, Wink. It has become pure sophistry

In my field you can discuss theoretical approaches to treating mental illness, but when the patient enters your office you do what is necessary to help them at that time. The most elegant theory won''t prevent a negative outcome if you cannot implement it in the here and now.

Okay then for the online market, why is any one online vendor''s attempt to classify rounds, princesses, pears as ideal, excellent, very good, ... any less valid than AGSL?

 

[whatmeworry]

Date: 8/23/2008 1:08:16 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/22/2008 6:24:01 PM

Author: whatmeworry

Relying on AGS, HCA, Sarin, Aset, GEMEX, 5 star ratings instead of your own eye and own definition of beauty hurts consumers in the long run. If someone bought a diamond that they thought was beautiful and the market agreed, then the consumer is paying the going rate. But if you bought something that you thought was beautiful but the market disagreed, then the consumer, just got a bargain.

True, so long as he never wants to resell it.


Wink

Wink, there are consumers out there struggling to resell their superideals.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/23/2008 1:19:59 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

As much as I prefer the AGS to GIA, I also acknowledge that GIA also helps people to make choices. I just have a hard time seeing anything wrong with this, especially in an industry as plagued with charletons as ours has become.
Wink

I''m curious if you regard the jewelry business as being more plagued with charlatans than most any other profession?

My own take on it is that it''s about the same percentage as most any other profession. You could say the same about the medical profession for example. ''Plagued with charlatans.'' Or the legal profession. ''Plagued with charlatans.'' And the figures would probably bear you out.

No better, no worse. Just carnal human nature at work, no matter what the profession.

I think if a lawyer or a doctor tried to peddle as much horse manure as I see being peddled at the mall that they would go to jail. I know for sure if drug manufacturers sold drugs that were as far off label as some of the EGL and IGI "certs" that I see that someone would be going to jail.

It is one of my frustrations. I have learned to live with it. I know the world is full of nice people and crooks, it just hurts my heart to see so many of the crooks in my industry.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/23/2008 1:37:05 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/23/2008 1:04:19 PM
Author: Wink

Might it be Garry that more people prefer rounds because the shape of the round lets it return more light because of the physics of light science, and what most people want from a diamond is sparkle. (And of course for many, size.)

Is it possible that rounds just tend to be what most people like> Nolthing wrong with liking a beautiful diamond. Nor is there anything wrong in preferring any other shape. Personal taste is personal taste. Having decided on a shape, is there anything wrong in wanting help to know that you are not being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous vendor?

As much as I prefer the AGS to GIA, I also acknowledge that GIA also helps people to make choices. I just have a hard time seeing anything wrong with this, especially in an industry as plagued with charletons as ours has become.

Wink

Wink..., please have some respect for the industry and the members of our industry!

I beg you to stop showing the bad to show your good intentions..., it is sounding like a joke already and does not help any of us!

Please....

I wish I could agree with you. Take John up on his offer, come hear the things that are being told to people in the malls, then have a nice barbeque while wondering where the people come up with these things.

I have tremendous respect for many in our industry, but I have also tremendous disreguard for those who would intentionally mislead, these are the ones who reak havoc with our industry. Of course, I should thank them. Without them we would not need the gem labs and we could all just concentrate on selling beauty.

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/23/2008 1:37:05 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/23/2008 1:04:19 PM

Author: Wink


Might it be Garry that more people prefer rounds because the shape of the round lets it return more light because of the physics of light science, and what most people want from a diamond is sparkle. (And of course for many, size.)


Is it possible that rounds just tend to be what most people like> Nolthing wrong with liking a beautiful diamond. Nor is there anything wrong in preferring any other shape. Personal taste is personal taste. Having decided on a shape, is there anything wrong in wanting help to know that you are not being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous vendor?



As much as I prefer the AGS to GIA, I also acknowledge that GIA also helps people to make choices. I just have a hard time seeing anything wrong with this, especially in an industry as plagued with charletons as ours has become.



Wink

Wink..., please have some respect for the industry and the members of our industry!


I beg you to stop showing the bad to show your good intentions..., it is sounding like a joke already and does not help any of us!


Please....

There are a lot of snake oil salesman in the industry but the larger problem is lack of education.
A good first step for the industry is independent schools a lab ran education system is a conflict of interest.
Lack of continuing education requirements is a huge problem.

There are really 2 types that do more harm than the crooks that I run into all the time out in the real world far more often than crooks.
1: Honest GG''s who stopped learning 20 years ago and does not want to learn anything.
2: honest but untrained sales people or honest sales people who don''t know it but are trained by crooks

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/23/2008 2:01:34 PM
Author: whatmeworry

Date: 8/23/2008 1:08:16 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/22/2008 6:24:01 PM

Author: whatmeworry

Relying on AGS, HCA, Sarin, Aset, GEMEX, 5 star ratings instead of your own eye and own definition of beauty hurts consumers in the long run. If someone bought a diamond that they thought was beautiful and the market agreed, then the consumer is paying the going rate. But if you bought something that you thought was beautiful but the market disagreed, then the consumer, just got a bargain.

True, so long as he never wants to resell it.


Wink

Wink, there are consumers out there struggling to resell their superideals.

I am sure there are, and yet they will have much less of a struggle than one who bought a diamond that the market does not like. Reselling jewelery has always been difficult as most of the public does not understand it well and wants to buy from someone that they see as established and trustworthy when buying in the jewelry market.

They want also to know that the vendor will be there to assist with problems, repairs, upgrades etc. I do not see this as a dichotemy, mearly a fact of the market. As a vendor I will take back in my stones in trade unless it is a stone outside my normal market and that is always disclosed at the time of sale. For your hypothetical bargain, it will be discussed that I will never want to see it again, except for cleanings and repairs etc.

Wink

P.S. When the sellers are willing to sell low enough, the stones will sell, even the dogs. There is such a thin margin in diamonds at the retail level now that it will continue to be harder and harder to sell a diamond as a private seller.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/23/2008 2:07:01 PM
Author: Wink

I wish I could agree with you. Take John up on his offer, come hear the things that are being told to people in the malls, then have a nice barbeque while wondering where the people come up with these things.


Wink

The nice sales lady I talked to at the mall the other day wasn''t a crook, she didn''t have much of a clue about diamonds however.
She is likely reading this sometime today so that will change.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/23/2008 2:15:37 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/23/2008 1:37:05 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/23/2008 1:04:19 PM

Author: Wink


Might it be Garry that more people prefer rounds because the shape of the round lets it return more light because of the physics of light science, and what most people want from a diamond is sparkle. (And of course for many, size.)


Is it possible that rounds just tend to be what most people like> Nolthing wrong with liking a beautiful diamond. Nor is there anything wrong in preferring any other shape. Personal taste is personal taste. Having decided on a shape, is there anything wrong in wanting help to know that you are not being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous vendor?



As much as I prefer the AGS to GIA, I also acknowledge that GIA also helps people to make choices. I just have a hard time seeing anything wrong with this, especially in an industry as plagued with charletons as ours has become.



Wink

Wink..., please have some respect for the industry and the members of our industry!


I beg you to stop showing the bad to show your good intentions..., it is sounding like a joke already and does not help any of us!


Please....

There are a lot of snake oil salesman in the industry but the larger problem is lack of education.
A good first step for the industry is independent schools a lab ran education system is a conflict of interest.

Lack of continuing education requirements is a huge problem.

There are really 2 types that do more harm than the crooks that I run into all the time out in the real world far more often than crooks.
1: Honest GG''s who stopped learning 20 years ago and does not want to learn anything.
2: honest but untrained sales people or honest sales people who don''t know it but are trained by crooks (...Or just those GG''s [from 1:])who are a lot of the business owners these days...)

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/23/2008 2:15:37 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/23/2008 1:37:05 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/23/2008 1:04:19 PM

Author: Wink


Might it be Garry that more people prefer rounds because the shape of the round lets it return more light because of the physics of light science, and what most people want from a diamond is sparkle. (And of course for many, size.)


Is it possible that rounds just tend to be what most people like> Nolthing wrong with liking a beautiful diamond. Nor is there anything wrong in preferring any other shape. Personal taste is personal taste. Having decided on a shape, is there anything wrong in wanting help to know that you are not being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous vendor?



As much as I prefer the AGS to GIA, I also acknowledge that GIA also helps people to make choices. I just have a hard time seeing anything wrong with this, especially in an industry as plagued with charletons as ours has become.



Wink

Wink..., please have some respect for the industry and the members of our industry!


I beg you to stop showing the bad to show your good intentions..., it is sounding like a joke already and does not help any of us!


Please....

There are a lot of snake oil salesman in the industry but the larger problem is lack of education.
A good first step for the industry is independent schools a lab ran education system is a conflict of interest.
Lack of continuing education requirements is a huge problem.

There are really 2 types that do more harm than the crooks that I run into all the time out in the real world far more often than crooks.
1: Honest GG''s who stopped learning 20 years ago and does not want to learn anything.
2: honest but untrained sales people or honest sales people who don''t know it but are trained by crooks

Karl,

Here you and I are in complete agreement.

Here we have a minor dissagreement. I am not enough of a historian to say for sure, but I believe that the GIA was first an educational arm and then a laboratory, but it could well be that they were simultaneous in their developement. I do know that at the time I attended my classes in 1975 that there was no where near the demand for Diamond Grading Reports that there is now. Most stones were bought and sold with out reports and only a very few of us gave a hoot about ideal cutting, and good luck finding any melee that had been well cut. The diamond investment craze changed that in just a very quick few years.

I do know that Robert Shipley did start both the Gemological Intitute of America and then the American Gem Society some time later so as to have a society for the newly educated gemologists to work in that would provide a structure of integrity and high standards and continuing education.

I have been either a full fledged member or an affiliate of the AGS for many many years now and am currently in the process of studying for my annual exam of the AGS. It is an easy and open book test based on the programs presented each year at the AGS Conclave. While easy, it does require that you read the abstracts, and thus you will learn something, whether intentional or not.

Unlike many professions, we have no actual requirements from the government as to either entry or continuing in the field. This is probably a good thing from my personal political point of view, but it does make it hard to foster any kind of educational standards or expectations in the public that we actually know what we are doing.

The reason that I say we have a mild dissagrement is that I am not sure there is enough money in the education alone to support a quality Institute. I would rather see someone with the monetary backing to do it right handling the education than see someone pinching pennies trying to do it.

Wink

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/23/2008 2:15:47 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/23/2008 2:01:34 PM
Author: whatmeworry

Date: 8/23/2008 1:08:16 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/22/2008 6:24:01 PM

Author: whatmeworry

Relying on AGS, HCA, Sarin, Aset, GEMEX, 5 star ratings instead of your own eye and own definition of beauty hurts consumers in the long run. If someone bought a diamond that they thought was beautiful and the market agreed, then the consumer is paying the going rate. But if you bought something that you thought was beautiful but the market disagreed, then the consumer, just got a bargain.

True, so long as he never wants to resell it.


Wink

Wink, there are consumers out there struggling to resell their superideals.

I am sure there are, and yet they will have much less of a struggle than one who bought a diamond that the market does not like. Reselling jewelery has always been difficult as most of the public does not understand it well and wants to buy from someone that they see as established and trustworthy when buying in the jewelry market.

Wink..., one buys a Diamond for other reasons and not to please the market..., (read your own words...., not mine!)
What do you mean by the market doesnt like???
Ohh... of-course one should buy a Diamond the market likes....

They want also to know that the vendor will be there to assist with problems, repairs, upgrades etc. I do not see this as a dichotemy, mearly a fact of the market. As a vendor I will take back in my stones in trade unless it is a stone outside my normal market and that is always disclosed at the time of sale. For your hypothetical bargain, it will be discussed that I will never want to see it again, except for cleanings and repairs etc.

I couldnt find nicer words to word that...

Wink

P.S. When the sellers are willing to sell low enough, the stones will sell, even the dogs. There is such a thin margin in diamonds at the retail level now that it will continue to be harder and harder to sell a diamond as a private seller.

Wink..., for your info..., markets change (and their likings)...

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/23/2008 2:39:09 PM
Author: Wink

I have been either a full fledged member or an affiliate of the AGS for many many years now and am currently in the process of studying for my annual exam of the AGS. It is an easy and open book test based on the programs presented each year at the AGS Conclave. While easy, it does require that you read the abstracts, and thus you will learn something, whether intentional or not.

Wink

Bravo to AGS for that.
AGS does do a lot of things right and a lot of good things.
Striving to understand AGS cut grading is a big reason I got to the level I am at today.
I was a lot bigger fan of AGS before the ec/se cut grading came out.
That was a real let down and when I clearly saw the damage cut grades can potentially do.

 

[whatmeworry]

From the IDEX study,

Lab certs by make:
Ideal 1.8%
Excellent 11.7%
Very Good 25.1%
Good 17.5%
Fair 0.4%
No Make 43.5%

Since the manufacturers are only cutting what the public demands, I will use the data above as an indicator of public demand.

Do you think the all the folks that bought Good make diamonds got swindled? Maybe some. But I''m sure many also did a comparison with other makes and were happy with the Good make and the lower price point.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/23/2008 2:49:48 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/23/2008 2:15:47 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/23/2008 2:01:34 PM
Author: whatmeworry

Date: 8/23/2008 1:08:16 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/22/2008 6:24:01 PM

Author: whatmeworry

Relying on AGS, HCA, Sarin, Aset, GEMEX, 5 star ratings instead of your own eye and own definition of beauty hurts consumers in the long run. If someone bought a diamond that they thought was beautiful and the market agreed, then the consumer is paying the going rate. But if you bought something that you thought was beautiful but the market disagreed, then the consumer, just got a bargain.

True, so long as he never wants to resell it.


Wink

Wink, there are consumers out there struggling to resell their superideals.

I am sure there are, and yet they will have much less of a struggle than one who bought a diamond that the market does not like. Reselling jewelery has always been difficult as most of the public does not understand it well and wants to buy from someone that they see as established and trustworthy when buying in the jewelry market.

Wink..., one buys a Diamond for other reasons and not to please the market..., (read your own words...., not mine!)
What do you mean by the market doesnt like???
Ohh... of-course one should buy a Diamond the market likes....

They want also to know that the vendor will be there to assist with problems, repairs, upgrades etc. I do not see this as a dichotemy, mearly a fact of the market. As a vendor I will take back in my stones in trade unless it is a stone outside my normal market and that is always disclosed at the time of sale. For your hypothetical bargain, it will be discussed that I will never want to see it again, except for cleanings and repairs etc.

I couldnt find nicer words to word that...

Wink

P.S. When the sellers are willing to sell low enough, the stones will sell, even the dogs. There is such a thin margin in diamonds at the retail level now that it will continue to be harder and harder to sell a diamond as a private seller.

Wink..., for your info..., markets change (and their likings)...

RE: Wink..., one buys a Diamond for other reasons and not to please the market..., (read your own words...., not mine!)
What do you mean by the market doesnt like???

Just commenting on whatmeworry''s comment about buying a diamond that the person thinks is beautiful but the market does not. I think you can figure it out. I am totally okay with someone buying a diamond that the market does not like, so long as they know that they are buying it because they like it.

I have several that I own that I could probably not sell in a LONG time. A treated diamond with strong yellow fluorescence that looks like (expletive deleted) in the sun, is one that I proudly put into a ring I wear frequently, but I would never expect to sell it.

I agree completely that one should buy what they like. You never seem to understand that, intentionally I suspect. I just can not agree with you that having a great guideline, like the AGS report is a bad thing. You think the range is too narrow, I get that. My public loves it. I am not in business to sell to you, I am in business to sell to my public. I work hard to understand cutting, so they don''t have to. I am willing to teach them as much as they wish to learn, but in the end, the majority of my clients buy from me because they trust me and they trust the brands that I represent because I trust them. Most of my in house clients never look at a cert or give a hoot about the numbers. They look at the diamonds, perhaps through the microscope and especially through the ASET and they buy because the diamonds ARE beautiful and because they trust me. They get the cert and any other paper when they pick up the finished piece, it is part and parcel of the Evaluation for Insurance Purposes.

For my internet clients, I just think that for those buying what they like and wanting to make sure it is the best that they can currently get, that the AGS report is a GREAT guideline. It seems to give them great comfort, because they are not sitting in my office in a community where I have a super reputation so that we can develope a great rapport. They need more since they are buying sight unseen. For years I was amazed that people actually bought from me on line, now it finally seems pretty normal, even though I still have to meditate about it from time to time to see if I can analyze why. I can still count on one hand the number of unpapered diamonds that I have sold online. (Not counting melee of course.) I suspect that when I retire or die that this will still be true.

You apparently do not feel that this is a good thing and that is okay with me too. You keep trying to convince people that having an AGS report is evil, I will keep reassuring them that it is not. I and others in the trade waited and worked for a long time for a tool this good to be developed and we trust that it will just keep getting better over the years. None of us will sit here and let you throw our baby out with your bath water.

RE: Wink..., for your info..., markets change (and their likings)...

You think? Try to sell a marquise these days. Only thirty some years ago they cost more than rounds they were so popular, hard to give them away now. Year in and year out though, the round brilliant has been the top seller ever since shortly after it was developed. I do not see this changing anytime soon, but I have been wrong before. Still, I will continue to place my bets on this buy buying the inventory I expect to be able to sell, and for using the best tools in the world so far to help me sell them. When the market changes, I will change with it, or I will fail and then not be a thorn in your side any longer.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/23/2008 3:26:01 PM
Author: whatmeworry
From the IDEX study,

Lab certs by make:
Ideal 1.8%
Excellent 11.7%
Very Good 25.1%
Good 17.5%
Fair 0.4%
No Make 43.5%

Since the manufacturers are only cutting what the public demands, I will use the data above as an indicator of public demand.

Do you think the all the folks that bought Good make diamonds got swindled? Maybe some. But I'm sure many also did a comparison with other makes and were happy with the Good make and the lower price point.

I have never said that, or intimated it. Some of them probably did however, and it was because they were never given the choice to choose a better cut diamond. Many of them eventually end up in my office where they are stunned to see what a well cut diamond looks like compared to what they are currently wearing, and most of them would have been happy to have paid a little more and gotten something more beautiful. (I am referring to people who bought poorly cut diamonds, not the good to excellent stones that also look good.)

Many of them would have chosen to stay with a good to excellent diamond because it would have been good enough for what they wanted.

I have said, will continue to say that the AGS Diamond Quality Document is an incredibly valuable tool for determining just how well your round or princess cut diamond is cut. I think John did a great job of illucidating that on the Podcast. I think the AGS DQD is a great benefit to the industry and to the public.

I have never said that what I sell is the ONLY thing that people should buy, it is what I choose to sell, it is my niche. I do not like UGLY diamonds, I do not like them in a ring, I do not like them in a thing, I do not like them on a train I do not like them in a plane. Oh wait, this is not Dr Seus, I get so confused...

BUT!!!!! When someone wants an Ideal cut, and wants it to be the REAL IDEAL, then he needs to get it with an AGS Diamond Quality Document, because folks, like it or not, that is the only gem lab that gives the Ideal grade as its top cut grade.

Wink

 

[Lynn B]

OK, I'm still sloshing through this thread... apparently I just can't stay away. It's like trying NOT to stare at a train wreck!!!

Seriously, I have learned some things through the pages of this thread, and I have truly enjoyed that. I have appreciated the varied perspectives and yes, even the (love 'em or hate 'em

) analogies.

I *think* (I would never be so presumptuous as to *assume*, however!) that the issue has been uneasily resolved, though, no? Specifically: for a person who knows (or wants to know) little to nothing about diamonds, but is looking for a beautiful, 57-facet, modern RB... an AGS-0 Ideal *might* be a helpful place for him/her to look. Period. End of story (and Podcast).

PS Speaking of the Podcast, John probably had the right idea when he rode outta Dodge five pages ago!!!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/23/2008 1:39:17 PM
Author: risingsun

Date: 8/23/2008 1:08:16 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/22/2008 6:24:01 PM
Author: whatmeworry
Relying on AGS, HCA, Sarin, Aset, GEMEX, 5 star ratings instead of your own eye and own definition of beauty hurts consumers in the long run. If someone bought a diamond that they thought was beautiful and the market agreed, then the consumer is paying the going rate. But if you bought something that you thought was beautiful but the market disagreed, then the consumer, just got a bargain.

True, so long as he never wants to resell it.

Wink

And as long as she doesn''t want to purchase her diamond online. Thanks for weighing in on this thread, Wink. It has become pure sophistry

In my field you can discuss theoretical approaches to treating mental illness, but when the patient enters your office you do what is necessary to help them at that time. The most elegant theory won''t prevent a negative outcome if you cannot implement it in the here and now. That doesn''t mean we stop clinical research, but we do use the tools that are available to us.

Thank you for your continuing consumer input. I apreciate it.

And now, I really have to go take my AGS annual exam. Maybe I will revisit this threat tomorrow, or maybe I will not. I think we have pretty muched reached a point where we just keep trying to find new ways to say the same things over and over. (With the exception that Storm and I found another thing on which we are in strong agreement. Funny how that happens from time to time.)

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/23/2008 4:37:54 PM
Author: Lynn B
OK, I''m still sloshing through this thread... apparently I just can''t stay away. It''s like trying NOT to stare at a train wreck!!!

Seriously, I have learned some things through the pages of this thread, and I have truly enjoyed that. I have appreciated the varied perspectives and yes, even the (love ''em or hate ''em

) analogies.

I *think* (I would never be so presumptuous as to *assume*, however!) that the issue has been uneasily resolved, though, no? Specifically: for a person who knows (or wants to know) little to nothing about diamonds, but is looking for a beautiful, 57-facet, modern RB... an AGS-0 Ideal *might* be a helpful place for him/her to look. Period. End of story (and Podcast).

PS Speaking of the Podcast, John probably had the right idea when he rode outta Dodge five pages ago!!!

Glad I checked to make sure my post posted before leaving. I shall have to emulate my friend John more and thank you for the picture and the fairly accurate as I see it wrap up...

Wink

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/23/2008 4:23:20 PM
Author: Wink

RE: Wink..., one buys a Diamond for other reasons and not to please the market..., (read your own words...., not mine!)
What do you mean by the market doesnt like???

Just commenting on whatmeworry''s comment about buying a diamond that the person thinks is beautiful but the market does not. I think you can figure it out. I am totally okay with someone buying a diamond that the market does not like, so long as they know that they are buying it because they like it.

Yes Wink..., I can figure it out but that exactly what I am trying to get across..., You and I (and loads of other professionals) can think a-like..., we are in the same profession..., the consumer reads it differently and thinks differently (and with justice)! We must change our old habits if we genuinely want a transparent industry...,
You shouldnt be just ok with someone buying a Diamond the market doesnt like..., you need to promote freedom in preferences and choice while educating your clients on what you believe is right in your opinion and be sure to be open minded to other opinions.

I have several that I own that I could probably not sell in a LONG time. A treated diamond with strong yellow fluorescence that looks like (expletive deleted) in the sun, is one that I proudly put into a ring I wear frequently, but I would never expect to sell it.

You''d be surprised what sells these days...

, tastes are going wild..., designers are too experimenting with wild stuff..., a few years ago would you dream high-end designers would use rough Diamonds or (what we the "market" call rejection type) polished Diamonds in super expensive jewelry??? Well its happening before your eyes!

I agree completely that one should buy what they like. You never seem to understand that, intentionally I suspect. I just can not agree with you that having a great guideline, like the AGS report is a bad thing. You think the range is too narrow, I get that. My public loves it. I am not in business to sell to you, I am in business to sell to my public. I work hard to understand cutting, so they don''t have to. I am willing to teach them as much as they wish to learn, but in the end, the majority of my clients buy from me because they trust me and they trust the brands that I represent because I trust them. Most of my in house clients never look at a cert or give a hoot about the numbers. They look at the diamonds, perhaps through the microscope and especially through the ASET and they buy because the diamonds ARE beautiful and because they trust me. They get the cert and any other paper when they pick up the finished piece, it is part and parcel of the Evaluation for Insurance Purposes.

Your clients love it because that is what you educate them..., They dont even know a much wider range exists..., at least let them know that by offering them a variety of those "most" beautiful AGS 0''s, they deserve knowing its an option that exists!

For my internet clients, I just think that for those buying what they like and wanting to make sure it is the best that they can currently get, that the AGS report is a GREAT guideline. It seems to give them great comfort, because they are not sitting in my office in a community where I have a super reputation so that we can develope a great rapport. They need more since they are buying sight unseen. For years I was amazed that people actually bought from me on line, now it finally seems pretty normal, even though I still have to meditate about it from time to time to see if I can analyze why. I can still count on one hand the number of unpapered diamonds that I have sold online. (Not counting melee of course.) I suspect that when I retire or die that this will still be true.

You apparently do not feel that this is a good thing and that is okay with me too. You keep trying to convince people that having an AGS report is evil, I will keep reassuring them that it is not. I and others in the trade waited and worked for a long time for a tool this good to be developed and we trust that it will just keep getting better over the years. None of us will sit here and let you throw our baby out with your bath water.

Wink..., you should know already I dont have anything against AGS (or other)..., (except my own private anger on some labs inconsistent habits

)..., but I do have a big problem on the fashion some professionals use their services unwisely! I am sick of repeating myself on this subject..., so please understand this time around or I will have to submit the long explanation I had ready for Ribbit....

RE: Wink..., for your info..., markets change (and their likings)...

You think? Try to sell a marquise these days. Only thirty some years ago they cost more than rounds they were so popular, hard to give them away now. Year in and year out though, the round brilliant has been the top seller ever since shortly after it was developed. I do not see this changing anytime soon, but I have been wrong before. Still, I will continue to place my bets on this buy buying the inventory I expect to be able to sell, and for using the best tools in the world so far to help me sell them. When the market changes, I will change with it, or I will fail and then not be a thorn in your side any longer.

Wink

I really don''t know what your problem is with marquises...

Tiffany are not able to supply enough their designers with these....
Harry Winston is fighting for them...
And their prices are constantly on the rise..., especially in the smalls
And that is just a few...
I have no problem selling beautiful Marquises..., maybe you should look further than RB''s and Princesses...., (there is a market for everything out there.)

Use these tools wisely..., other wise these tools will loose their magic!

Wink..., I am sorry you are taking it so personal!
Its not my intention, I am known to tell it as it is..., its my weakness as well as my strength!
I realy believe its time for our industry to move up from our old ways of thinking..., in order to have a transparent industry (as we keep claiming) we must loose old habits..., each one of us (especially ones with decades of involvements like you and me)...

First step is please stop naming the crooks each time you want to show bad habits..., its wiser and more realistic (and more pleasing to the readers)! Please, I will not ask again...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Wow - so much to read and catch up on.

I think the debate has improved guys.

Cant post all the quotes, so will short cut it:

Wink you wrote that AGS can not have much influenece - they are only 2% of the market.
This is true, and wrong. I mentioned before that Sarin had a simple system for planning rough - you select a lab and a few of its grades and get 3 or 4 plans. AGS proportions are much favoured - they were the old pre 2004 system - so many diamonds had a plan to achieve 57% 35.8 and 41.2.
This influence and many of these old devices are still being used today. Many of those companies never even knew where AGS is situated or that S = society. The impact is probably very much alive and well in stones desitned to the Malls of USA.

Wink - what % of the market should be rounds based on the fact it Is a nice shape? Should there be other facet combinations among that selection? (re the vanilla theory from Allison - which I will get data on from our largest supermarket chain in a couple of days).

Richard the Wise - so good to have you back Rich - your comments are good. There are lots of other industries with people with ''human nature''. Hey look at sport too - drugs and lying etc. Sergey is really working very hard to make it easier for there to be Transparency and Customer Confidence. Labs made a mess of that - Shipley et al had the best intentions, but they included far too many things that gemo''s love, and left out "is it a good stone?" "is it pretty" "what is wrong with it" - no where is this more evident than in their total inability to say "this diamond has reduced transparency". We have the most confusing jargon for young people to learn about before buying a precious symbol for their relationships.
DG you touched on the above.

Re consumer confidence - I have had many battles over false and missleading conduct here in Oz. At one time I secret shopped a lousy cheating chain store for a national news show with them across the road on the GPO steps with telephoto lens and me with a microphone radio hooked in. That chain subsequntly went under and all my mates made damm sure I rode my bicycle on the outside of the bunch so if anyone wanted to take me out the other guys would be safe. I am not kidding. We have many competitors selling EGL Israel paper with very ordinary diamonds. I know it is a dreadful problem and I am ashamed, but as sergey says, trying to fix that is working on the tip of the iceberg - rather like painting the sydney harbour bridge. Does not mean John and all us of should not combat deception. But sergey is a visionary and is doing more than anyone else in our industry to fix the problems. Will he succeede? Is he right on all fronts? Who knows - but we will find out.

Finally LynnB - thanks - I know John is upset that his best intentions and excellent communication has led to what at times became a nasty debate. There is a problem, it needs to be fixed, and I am pleased to say that a number of key players in the solutions are working it out and participating here.