Opinions on this stone?

[TorontoBuyer]

Hello,

I''ve spent the past few months trying to educate myself on the ins and outs of diamond buying. Recently found this site and it has helped tremendously... and has probably made me far more picky than I would have been otherwise!

After searching online and contacting a few places in my area (Toronto Canada) I''ve found the following stone, which very closely matches what I''m looking for but ''only'' scores a 3 on HCA (I''m assuming because of the 41.2 deg pavillion angle?). Here are the specs from the GIA cert:

1.11 Ct, Round, 6.68 x 6.73 x 4.10mm
Depth 61.1%
Table 57%
Crown 34 deg
Pavilion 41.2 deg
Thin to Medium Girdle
Culet None

Polish VG
Symm EX

Cut EX
Clarity VS2
Color F

Fluorescence None

What I think I''m looking for is a stone that gives the most brilliance (sparkle?) possible within this carat/clarity/colour range (~1.1ct/F/VS2). I''d really appreciate opinions on this particular stone. I do not have access to a sarin/diamcalc etc evaluation.

Other questions (for the especially patient among you!):
1. I think I read that GIA recently changed their grading system. This stone was graded in Dec. 2005... should that concern me?
2. I''d ideally like a stone with medium blue fluorescence, but am not having any luck finding them here in Toronto... are they relatively rare?
3. How much does polish affect ''sparkle'', if at all?
4. I am planning on setting this in a 3-stone setting, with side stones in the 0.35ct range (matching colour/clarity/cut). Does that choice of setting impede light return / ''sparkle'' - i.e., can I afford to be less picky about cut with this setting?


Thanks very much

 

[idealring]

Hey,

I am not too sure about diamonds in general, since I am only limited to the online and vendour research I have been doing.

I am also in the market to purchase a diamond (not a brilliant cut) but I have found this site to be tremendously helpful. I too feel over-picky in a way since the more knowledge I gather, the better a stone I am expecting.

I am also from Ontario, and I actually had a question for you.

I am wondering (if you are purchasing a diamond online of course), if you know if and what duties you may need to pay for it to be shipped to Canada (Ontario) or any additional costs that may be associated with purchasing a diamond online through a US distributor/seller?

I really hope some insightful posts go up on your diamond. Based on what I have seen, you have selected a great diamond choice, but then again, I am no expert.

 

[TorontoBuyer]

Hi,

I''m actually just at the point of deciding between buying online vs. through a local retailer (comparing prices for similar stones to determine if the online discount is worth any perceived risk), so haven''t even thought about import duties etc... but I''m sure others on here will chime in.

Cheers

 

[pixley]

Hi there,
I''m from BC and had Diamondexchange.ca source my stone from New York. I ended up only having to pay the GST since it was shipped from Toronto to BC. If you have PST in TO, then, you''d have to add that too.

 

[TorontoBuyer]

(I''d really appreciate any opinions... )

 

[Sparkalicious]

Hi Torontobuyer! Welcome to PS!

I''ll give this a shot.

From what I understand about the HCA, I believe that you are correct in thinking that the "3" score this diamond receives is a result of the crown/pavilion angle relationship. If you really like this diamond, after having seen it in person, possibly you may wish to purchase and idealscope so that you can assess its performance further yourself? This way you can be more certain if it is actually a "performer" or not and if it meets your standards. If you are not stuck on this particular diamond, there are others out there for you.

You mentioned that you are looking for the most brilliant stone in your range. The way to achieve that is by placing priority or focus on cut.

To answer your other questions:
1) I am not positive, however, I don''t believe that GIA changing their grading system should concern you. They are still one of the most reputable grading labs. Additionally, if you are concerned, have your stone indepently appraised prior to purchase, possibly, to ensure that what you are paying for is indeed what you are receiving.

2)It may just take some more looking to find your ''perfect'' stone that possesses all the elements you are seeking. Medium blue fluorescence stones are around, just maybe the ones you have come across don''t necessarily fall within range of your others specs. I''m sure if you keep looking, if you have some more time, you should be able to find one that has everything you appreciate in a diamond.

3) A diamond graded as having VG polish, should not adversely affect the "sparkle" of your diamond as the sparkle primarily relates to cut. VG and EX are both recognized as being top notch polish, so this just boils down to personal preference ... is is a "mind clean" thing to see EX on the cert or are you fine with VG b/c essentially, to the naked eye, the difference is undiscernable or, at most, negligible.

4)A 3 stone setting should not impede light return at all. If you go to the Show Me the Ring forum and search for 3 stone rings, you will see some beauties there! Given that you have mentioned that you want the most sparkliest diamond of them all, I would have to say that, in your scenario, you may not want to be less picky about the cut, b/c that will affect light return and the overall sparkle effect.

If you have not already, you may wish to go somewhere like Spence and ask them to view any AGS Ideal (AGS0) or GIA Ex diamonds as this will give you an idea of the type of sparkle you can achieve with a well cut stone. If you don''t notice the difference, then a "less" well cut stone may also suit your needs.

I hope that this helps. Good luck with your search! Please keep us updated on how it is going!

 

[Ellen]

Hi toronto,

Yes, the PA is what's dinging your score. Change it to 41 and you're back in AGS territory. The HCA, and it's creator, prefer less deep numbers. However, if this diamond were cut tight, it could be very pretty. But without a Sarin, or IS pic, it's anybody's guess on whether it is or not.

Fluorescence isn't rare, but it's not a dime a dozen either. I searched briefly, just for the heck of it. And I looked at F, G, and H, VS2-SI1, to open things up a bit, and this was the last stone I clicked. Fate?

http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/4176/

This may be a new stone, which would explain why all the info isn't there, but it's a branded stone, which is known for being extremely well cut, so I'm not too worried about a pending report on it. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that one out in case you decided to buy online.

ETA, I just looked at the helium report, and it was scanned yesterday, so def. new.

 

[Sparkalicious]

Wow! Nice find, Ellen ... How perfect is that!?!!
No kidding ... fate!

 

[Ellen]

Thanks sparks. I think it is fate.

 

[TorontoBuyer]

Thanks very much for the responses, and for finding that stone... it looks like almost exactly what I''m looking for! The price seems reasonable too - about 20% less than the diamond I mentioned earlier, though it''s 0.07ct smaller. What sort of price difference would you expect between a 1.04ct and a 1.11ct diamond, if everything else was identical?

Also, how could I get an Idealscope or ''OGI Firescope'' performed on the first stone? Do jewellers often provide these if asked?

Thanks again

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/10/2008 9:36:54 AM
Author: TorontoBuyer
Thanks very much for the responses, and for finding that stone... it looks like almost exactly what I''m looking for! The price seems reasonable too - about 20% less than the diamond I mentioned earlier, though it''s 0.07ct smaller. What sort of price difference would you expect between a 1.04ct and a 1.11ct diamond, if everything else was identical?

Also, how could I get an Idealscope or ''OGI Firescope'' performed on the first stone? Do jewellers often provide these if asked?

Thanks again

I wouldn''t expect much between these two sizes IF comparing same two online, or same two at B&M. But between B&M and online, well, you get the picture. A lot, as online is amost always better/cheaper.

Call GOG tomorrow, they''re closed on Mondays. Tell them the stone you''re interested in, and ask for the IS pics and such. I imagine they are already in the process of doing them, and just haven''t finished since it''s so new. They will send all that to you in a link when it''s done.

Also have them reserve it for you while you decide, they will do that for free. And that way no one else can come along and buy it from under your nose, which happens.


Honestly, I can''t believe I found that, not only the fluorescence, but the size and specs you wanted too. I don''t think I could do that again if I tried!

Here''s their contact page, call and ask to speak to Jon, he''s head honcho, and will take great care of you.

http://goodoldgold.com/ContactUs/

 

[Fly Girl]

Date: 3/10/2008 9:36:54 AM
Author: TorontoBuyer
Thanks very much for the responses, and for finding that stone... it looks like almost exactly what I'm looking for! The price seems reasonable too - about 20% less than the diamond I mentioned earlier, though it's 0.07ct smaller. What sort of price difference would you expect between a 1.04ct and a 1.11ct diamond, if everything else was identical?

Also, how could I get an Idealscope or 'OGI Firescope' performed on the first stone? Do jewellers often provide these if asked?

Thanks again

The Good Old Gold diamond is an Isee2. Perfection. That's all I would need to know to GO FOR IT!!

 

[TorontoBuyer]

I''m seriously considering the isee2 that Ellen found (thanks again) but came across the following GIA EX/EX/EX stone at a wholesaler here in Toronto. The price is nearly identical to the isee2 but the stone is a bit larger.

1.13 Ct, Round F VS2 (didn''t note down the measurements)
Depth 61.5%
Table 56%
Crown 35.0 deg
Pavilion 41.0 deg
Thin to Medium Girdle
Culet None
Polish EX
Symm EX
Cut EX

Any thoughts on how this stone compares? The HCA rates them nearly the same (2.3 for the isee2, 2.2 for the above).

Also, the GIA report for the above showed at least 7-8 feather inclusions, none of which I could see without the loupe but I''m no expert. I''ve read all I could find here at PS, but couldn''t find an answer to this question: are certain types of inclusions more likely to be visible to the naked eye than others? Or, do these inclusions increase the chances that this stone is not "eye clean"?

Thanks for your patience.

 

[Ellen]

In a word, nope.

First, it''s showing angles that we call a steep/deep. You can do a search here for an indepth explanation, but the short of it is, possible light leakage = not as bright a stone.

The stone I found for you not only has great numbers, it''s cut by a company know for extremely tight cut stones. They cut the best of the best, seriously. Without hesitation, I can guarantee the GOG stone is definitely better. And something else, it would be entirely possible that the smaller stone appeared the same size as the one you found. A great cut truly makes the stone stand out.

Trust me, you want the GOG stone.

 

[TorontoBuyer]

Wow, I was hoping for a quick reply but that was fantastic!

I had read about steep/deep stones but thought (obviously incorrectly) that this 35/41 combination was ok, especially because it seems to fall near the "centre" of the GIA EX range. It must be this angle combination, then, that''s encouraging the wholesaler to offer it at near-online prices? I was hoping it would perform well since it''s nearly $2K less than the first stone I posted, and has a better HCA score.

I guess I just need to get my head around buying online (and the potential risks of having it shipped across the border)... there''s just something comforting about sitting across the table from someone and looking down at the stone.

Thanks again.

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 3/12/2008 8:10:36 PM
Author: TorontoBuyer
Wow, I was hoping for a quick reply but that was fantastic!

I had read about steep/deep stones but thought (obviously incorrectly) that this 35/41 combination was ok, especially because it seems to fall near the ''centre'' of the GIA EX range. It must be this angle combination, then, that''s encouraging the wholesaler to offer it at near-online prices? I was hoping it would perform well since it''s nearly $2K less than the first stone I posted, and has a better HCA score.

I guess I just need to get my head around buying online (and the potential risks of having it shipped across the border)... there''s just something comforting about sitting across the table from someone and looking down at the stone.

Thanks again.

Toronto Buyer,
I know how you feel. It took me a few years to start purchasing my stones online.
Even then, I went local for settings and found out just yeterday I was taken advantage of with prices.
The vendors recommended here are awesome. They go out of their way to educate you, get you beautiful stones, and their prices even for settings are hard to beat.
You have nothing to worry about. If you''re still uncomfortable, find a stone through GOG, or Whitelfash, post it here and the PS''rs will tell you exactly what they think, then have the vendor ship it to a local appraiser so you won''t have to worry about the risks involved of having it shipped cross border and you can see it for yourself.
I''m a jaded new yorker. Everything I purchase goes straight to an appraiser even though I trust the vendors here, just because it makes me more comfortable.
But neither WhiteFlash nor GOG has disappointed me yet.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/12/2008 8:10:36 PM
Author: TorontoBuyer
Wow, I was hoping for a quick reply but that was fantastic!

I had read about steep/deep stones but thought (obviously incorrectly) that this 35/41 combination was ok, especially because it seems to fall near the 'centre' of the GIA EX range. It must be this angle combination, then, that's encouraging the wholesaler to offer it at near-online prices? I was hoping it would perform well since it's nearly $2K less than the first stone I posted, and has a better HCA score.

I guess I just need to get my head around buying online (and the potential risks of having it shipped across the border)... there's just something comforting about sitting across the table from someone and looking down at the stone.

Thanks again.

Yep, the angles are not so desirable, so that will lower the price.

And I also get what you're saying. I tried to shop locally, as there is something great about seeing the stones, etc. My experiences just forced me to shop online. I wouldn't recommend just any vendor, but the ones we approve and recommend here beat out anyone I ever dealt with in person. I have said it before, of finding PS and the vendors, it's one of the very few times in my life where it sounded too good to be true, and yet it wasn't.

I can already assure you that's a great stone. But as elle suggested, have it sent to an independant appraiser here first, and if he tells you what you want to hear, you're good to go.

And you're very welcome.

 

[TorontoBuyer]

Thanks Elle - being told that I have nothing to worry about definitely helps. Anyone else?

So if I understand the process you follow:
- shop/select/get PS ''approval''/buy online
- have vendor ship to appraiser
- view stone in person
- have any other tests run that you may want (Sarin etc)?
- then, if it doesn''t exactly meet your needs (and the appraiser''s evaluation doesn''t verify what you were told about the stone) you then return it... and you''re only out the appraiser''s fee, the shipping charges - about $200, in my case - and your time?

 

[TorontoBuyer]

Ok, was just looking more closely at the reports that GoG provides with the isee2 stone (as I work up the courage to buy it

), and noticed some discrepancies between the numbers. Is this degree of variance expected? Or is the ''megascope'' report known to be less accurate with the percentages/angles it reports?

GIA Report
Depth 61.6%
Table 56%
Crown 34.0deg
Pav 41.0deg

Helium Report
Depth 61.4%
Table 56.2%
Crown 34.1deg
Pav 41.0deg

Megascope Report
Depth 61.7%
Table 54.4%
Crown 34.1deg
Pav 41.2deg

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 3/12/2008 8:38:57 PM
Author: TorontoBuyer
Thanks Elle - being told that I have nothing to worry about definitely helps. Anyone else?

So if I understand the process you follow:
- shop/select/get PS ''approval''/buy online
- have vendor ship to appraiser
- view stone in person
- have any other tests run that you may want (Sarin etc)?
- then, if it doesn''t exactly meet your needs (and the appraiser''s evaluation doesn''t verify what you were told about the stone) you then return it... and you''re only out the appraiser''s fee, the shipping charges - about $200, in my case - and your time?

Yes, that''s the process I follow and I haven''t yet had an appraiser say that the stones I purchased from GOG or Whiteflash were bad. My appraiser, who''s known to be hard on grading was impressed.
The point is to get a good stone to start with then have an appraiser verify it. I''m assuming you''d do an appraisal anyway for insurance purposes, no?
Also, you said you wanted someone to sit with you and show you the stones, I''d trust an unbiased party to sit and go over the stone with me, not the jeweler trying to sell me the stone. Chances are you''re going to get it appraised anwyay, what''s the difference if you do it first, rather than later and still find out the stones doesn''t meet your expectations and you''d still send it back.

As far as the differences in angles, an expert will chime in soon enough.

Good luck

 

[Sparkalicious]

Hi Torontobuyer!

I agree with both Ellen and Elle. That GOG diamond is going to be GORGEOUS! An incredible diamond specimen.

With regards to your online apprehension, I felt the same way. This past December I actually made my first online diamond purchase. I bought a diamond from WF for my mother and it is just as beautiful as promised.
I am finally having it appraised for my own piece of mind, however, many PS''ers don''t even bother with appraisals for trusted vendors like WF and GOG anymore ... then again, that does take a great level of trust though, right.
Anyways, my point is, your purpose is to get a gorgeous diamond for your future fiancee ... you''ve found one AND with exactly the specs you were seeking ... Go for it! Besides, if you get it and don''t like it ... GOG has a return policy. Maybe you can just firm up the details of that with them before you proceed?? Or you could make your purchase pending a satisfactory appraisal from an independent appraiser .. whatever makes you most comfortable.

With regards to the discrepancies you noted between the reports. I am not certain, however, as far as I understand it, there are slight variances between machines or equipment when "measuring" diamonds, therefore, reports won''t always come out exactly with the same numbers. If you are concerned I''m sure that Jon at GOG would be able to provide you with a knowledgeable and informative response ... who knows, he might even chime in on this thread if he sees it. He goes by the name of Rhino on PS ... Maybe you could start a need thread "calling" him or you could actually contact GOG and speak with him directly ...

I hope this helps!

 

[Ellen]

Toronto, elle and spark pretty much answered everything, so I'll just briefly hit highlights.

I too didn't have my stone from GOG looked at before I purchased, I'd done enough homework to know it was great. I did take it to an IA, once the ring was set and sent to me. Mostly because it was the prudent thing to do, not because I was worried. But you do what makes you feel most comfortable!

Also, regarding the appraiser and needing info for insurance, Jon runs more tests than some (perhaps most) appraisers, and you will receive all that info with the ring. No need for more tests.

As said, yes, the numbers will/can vary from one report to another. I believe most feel the Helium report is the most accurate. But regardless, the stone is fine.

I would advise putting it on hold though, so it doesn't get snatched.

 

[TorontoBuyer]

Quick update: I''ve exchanged emails with Jonathan and it appears he has a couple of other stones I might consider (apparently just as well cut and with blue fluor, but slightly larger). I''ve asked him to hold the original stone for me as per the advice here.

When looking back at the 1.04ct stone today, though, I noticed the price had suddenly increased by a few hundred $$$. Do diamond prices fluctuate this rapidly, or did something happen in the past day or so that would justify/explain this?