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superior

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
3
Good evening

I have been learning as much as possible about the exhaustive world of diamonds over past weeks. Almost all of what I have learned and seems pertinent has come from this board; pricescope hosts an excellent wealth of knowledge and helpful folks. I have read enough to consider myself a fledgling novice and have made this thread to ask the opinion of those more experienced.

I am in the market for a single diamond for an engagement ring. My GF and I are both 30yo professionals. In discussion with her, we would both be willing to make some compromises in terms of color and inclusion grading in the interest of a larger and more economical stone. I feel comfortable with stones that are H, I color and slightly included as long as it doesn't affect light return. I know good and well that cut is king and will not be bargained on.

In my searches, I occasionally come across stones that seem like bargains. One of them, which I am strongly considering purchasing, has the following stats:

2.8 carat round brilliant
I color
SI-2 inclusions. On the GIA report they appear to be in the periphery. The diamond I'm told by the expert is "eye clean"
Strong blue fluorescence. Upon my specific request, they tell me it is not milky/hazy/oily. I think I am OK with fluorescence.

Table 56%
Depth 61.5%
Crown angle 32.0
Pavilion angle 41.2

I immediately recognized that the crown and pavilion angles fall outside of the typically suggested ranges.
I calculated an HCA score of <2
I calculated an AGA score of 1B

What should I be suspicious of in this stone? It looks excellent in the photo I received. Other images are not available through the entity which has it listed. Are the crown and pavilion angles complimentary in the sense that they balance the HCA score, or is this a mathematical anomaly that would not perform in real life?

Thanks for any and all help
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
What is the girdle on it? Such a low crown is a chipping risk.
 

fair75

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
87
A shallow crown angle like that will likely increase the spread of the diamond, but at the cost of reduced fire and durability. The girdle would be prone to chipping like Gypsy mentioned. To me, this combo of shallow crown and deep pavilion angles isn't a good one. You might already know that GIA numbers are averaged and rounded, so an idealscope/ASET scope image probably will reveal some light performance issues.

SI1 and SI2 diamonds can have dramatically different looks in terms of inclusions. It is still fairly easy to find eye-clean SI1 diamonds, but it will be much harder to find good SI2s, especially the ones with the white feather on the edge of the girdle without causing durability issues, which could be fully or partially covered by the prongs. You mentioned that the expert has told you the diamond is eye clean, correct? Well, did the vendor have the diamond in the inventory so a qualified gemologist had a chance to examine it? Or did the vendor just get the opinion of the seller who owns the diamond?

Did the expert tell you what his/her definition of eye clean is? Your definition of eye clean may be very different. For example, some people consider eye clean to be the viewing distance of 8 to 10 inches from the eye. But is that your definition? Also you may have very good eyes so you can spot inclusions when others can't given the same viewing distance. Have you been to the stores and requested to see some GIA-graded SI diamonds?
 

fair75

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
87
I forgot to mention that it's very difficult for an SI1/SI2 diamond over 2 carats to be eye clean, if not impoosible.
 

ac117

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Messages
3,755
fair75|1467812306|4052037 said:
I forgot to mention that it's very difficult for an SI1/SI2 diamond over 2 carats to be eye clean, if not impoosible.
I'd have to respectfully disagree - while rare, we do have members who have found "unicorns" (aka eye clean SI1/SI2 stones). The one that comes to mind as most recent is PintoBean's 3.03 SI2 with white feathers that are very hard to see. I saw the stone in person and could only spot one while literally holding the stone above my head at the light and angling it to see the side.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/3-03-carat-unicorn.223611/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/3-03-carat-unicorn.223611/[/URL]
 

superior

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
3
Thanks so much for all the impressions; I'm truly honored by the knowledge and willingness to help.

Interestingly, the stone is listed as having medium to slightly thick girdle. The definition given of eye clean by the reviewer is 6-8 inches.

I see what you mean regarding possibility of chipping with decreased crown angle.

When I'm able this evening, I'll try to post the Gia report and magnified photo I was given. Inclusions are visible but don't seem offensive to us.

Thanks again for the education!
 

superior

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
3
Thanks so much for all the impressions; I'm truly honored by the knowledge and willingness to help.

Interestingly, the stone is listed as having medium to slightly thick girdle. The definition given of eye clean by the reviewer is 6-8 inches.

I see what you mean regarding possibility of chipping with decreased crown angle.

When I'm able this evening, I'll try to post the Gia report and magnified photo I was given. Inclusions are visible but don't seem offensive to us.

Thanks again for the education!
 

fair75

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
87
That's why I said it will be difficult to have an SI1/SI2 diamond that is 2 carat plus to be eye clean. However, it will be very rare. I also looked at diamond you were talking about. While I agree that is a pretty clean SI2, it will depend on the individual regarding the issue of eye-cleanliness. For example, people who have great eyes and tend to see inclusions easily, then it won't be eye clean to them. That's why I encourage seeing some diamonds in that range in person so the OP can have an idea. For me, that diamond would most likely not be eye clean. First of all, I am near sighted so I can hold a diamond closer to my eyes. I also look at any diamond from the top and the side to locate inclusions. If I can see any inclusion without a loup that way, the diamond won't be eye clean. I will also add that my eyes are trained so It's easier for me to spot inclusions. However, that is MY definition of eye clean and mine only. This is also why I emphasize the importance of knowing what an individual's definition of eye clean is and how comfortable he/she is with inclusions.
 

PintoBean

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
6,408
fair75 said:
That's why I said it will be difficult to have an SI1/SI2 diamond that is 2 carat plus to be eye clean. However, it will be very rare. I also looked at diamond you were talking about. While I agree that is a pretty clean SI2, it will depend on the individual regarding the issue of eye-cleanliness. For example, people who have great eyes and tend to see inclusions easily, then it won't be eye clean to them. That's why I encourage seeing some diamonds in that range in person so the OP can have an idea. For me, that diamond would most likely not be eye clean. First of all, I am near sighted so I can hold a diamond closer to my eyes. I also look at any diamond from the top and the side to locate inclusions. If I can see any inclusion without a loup that way, the diamond won't be eye clean. I will also add that my eyes are trained so It's easier for me to spot inclusions. However, that is MY definition of eye clean and mine only. This is also why I emphasize the importance of knowing what an individual's definition of eye clean is and how comfortable he/she is with inclusions.
Hi fair75. Since we're talking about my unicorn - named "pollo" for its feathers, I wanted to chime in. The feather that IS visible is prongable. This is why I and others have deemed it eye clean. Rarely do you see SI-2s that don't look like they are the product of a diamond mother and a dalmation father.

Here is another eye-clean SI-2 that has a feather that "disappears" under the prongs - nearly 4 carats. This diamond was the inspiration for me to look through SI-2.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/3-98-rb-in-vatche-u113-thanks-to-idj.184808/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/3-98-rb-in-vatche-u113-thanks-to-idj.184808/[/URL]

As a point of reference, my avatar e-ring - named "frozen piss" because it's yellow ice, is a 1.5 ct VVS2. My EC is a 4.02 VVS2. My 1.52 MRB is a VS1. My 2.59 pink-brown "choco-berry finn" is a SI-1/2. My 0.78 MRB is an SI-1. As you can see, I own and have personally played with a bunch of diamonds with different clarity clarifications in different carat weights. I also have a judgey discerning mother who would tear my head off for wasting my money on a "dirty" diamond :lol: :lol: :lol: I have 20/30 vision without my glasses. I also deal with vendors that understand PS standard of eye-clean. I also like taking pictures of my diamonds with macro lenses. I also like to then zoom in on the pictures on my ipad or iphone. I also have a diamond loving bestie with eagle eyes that I ask to independently check out my diamonds prior to purchase (and I mean by independent - she goes and looks at the diamonds WITHOUT me there to influence her analysis). i also think I have mental illness because I touch up my walls with tiny watercolor paintbrushes. Can you tell I'm ANAL(ytical), royal pain in the butt, diamond hoarding, need addiction counseling, scrutinizing arsehat? :dance: :dance: :dance: As a Pinto Bean, I'm also flatulent in 3 languages, not to toot my own horn... :whistle: :loopy:
 

fair75

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
87
PintoBean|1467824234|4052091 said:
fair75 said:
That's why I said it will be difficult to have an SI1/SI2 diamond that is 2 carat plus to be eye clean. However, it will be very rare. I also looked at diamond you were talking about. While I agree that is a pretty clean SI2, it will depend on the individual regarding the issue of eye-cleanliness. For example, people who have great eyes and tend to see inclusions easily, then it won't be eye clean to them. That's why I encourage seeing some diamonds in that range in person so the OP can have an idea. For me, that diamond would most likely not be eye clean. First of all, I am near sighted so I can hold a diamond closer to my eyes. I also look at any diamond from the top and the side to locate inclusions. If I can see any inclusion without a loup that way, the diamond won't be eye clean. I will also add that my eyes are trained so It's easier for me to spot inclusions. However, that is MY definition of eye clean and mine only. This is also why I emphasize the importance of knowing what an individual's definition of eye clean is and how comfortable he/she is with inclusions.
Hi fair75. Since we're talking about my unicorn - named "pollo" for its feathers, I wanted to chime in. The feather that IS visible is prongable. This is why I and others have deemed it eye clean. Rarely do you see SI-2s that don't look like they are the product of a diamond mother and a dalmation father.

Here is another eye-clean SI-2 that has a feather that "disappears" under the prongs - nearly 4 carats. This diamond was the inspiration for me to look through SI-2.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/3-98-rb-in-vatche-u113-thanks-to-idj.184808/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/3-98-rb-in-vatche-u113-thanks-to-idj.184808/[/URL]

As a point of reference, my avatar e-ring - named "frozen piss" because it's yellow ice, is a 1.5 ct VVS2. My EC is a 4.02 VVS2. My 1.52 MRB is a VS1. My 2.59 pink-brown "choco-berry finn" is a SI-1/2. My 0.78 MRB is an SI-1. As you can see, I own and have personally played with a bunch of diamonds with different clarity clarifications in different carat weights. I also have a judgey discerning mother who would tear my head off for wasting my money on a "dirty" diamond :lol: :lol: :lol: I have 20/30 vision without my glasses. I also deal with vendors that understand PS standard of eye-clean. I also like taking pictures of my diamonds with macro lenses. I also like to then zoom in on the pictures on my ipad or iphone. I also have a diamond loving bestie with eagle eyes that I ask to independently check out my diamonds prior to purchase (and I mean by independent - she goes and looks at the diamonds WITHOUT me there to influence her analysis). i also think I have mental illness because I touch up my walls with tiny watercolor paintbrushes. Can you tell I'm ANAL(ytical), royal pain in the butt, diamond hoarding, need addiction counseling, scrutinizing arsehat? :dance: :dance: :dance: As a Pinto Bean, I'm also flatulent in 3 languages, not to toot my own horn... :whistle: :loopy:

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. I think I made it very clear that everyone's standard of eye clean is different and that is 100% ok. I am also not saying that SI2 diamonds won't be eye clean. I am just saying it will very difficult/rare to find one. Now your standard of eye clean maybe the same as many PS vendors here, but it doesn't mean other people can't have their own. I have a very beautiful SI2 diamond and that is even cleaner than your 3 carat + diamond. It has a white feather located on the edge and it happens to blend in with one of the facets. I can honestly say that diamond is perhaps the cleanliest SI2 I have seen so far. It is extremely difficult to see that inclusion even with a 10x loupe if you aren't experienced with it. Even for me, I know it is located near the edge, I still have a hard time finding it without the right angles and tilt. I even brought it to some local jewelers and many of them thought it was at least VS1. Having said that, I am not implying your SI2 diamond isn't clean and beautiful. Like many others, I will have no problem buying a clean SI2 and save money at the same time. But how clean must it be? Nobody can answer that but the person who is buying/receiving the diamond. Some of my friends still insist on buying D-F, VVS2 to IF diamonds despite knowing that G/H, SI1-VS1 (some nice SI2) ideal cut diamonds will be virtually indistinguishable when set. I don't really agree with the need to go colorless and high clarity, but in their cultures, those types of diamonds symbolize purity and carry significant meanings.

If you look at my posts on PS so far, I encourage people to find out what their definition of eye clean is. They can either go to a store to see diamonds in person, or reply on the judgement of reputable PS vendors. If people live in the US, then it will be much easier for them because for the most part, they can return the diamonds and get the money back from most major online retailers.

In my opinion, many PS members, including myself, know that many lower clarity, lower color but ideal-cut diamonds can look very similar when they are set. However, not everyone has the same opinion. Some people prefer colorless and high clarity diamonds because of personal/cultural reasons and won't change their minds. But that's ok as well.
 

fair75

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
87
superior|1467816803|4052050 said:
Thanks so much for all the impressions; I'm truly honored by the knowledge and willingness to help.

Interestingly, the stone is listed as having medium to slightly thick girdle. The definition given of eye clean by the reviewer is 6-8 inches.

I see what you mean regarding possibility of chipping with decreased crown angle.

When I'm able this evening, I'll try to post the Gia report and magnified photo I was given. Inclusions are visible but don't seem offensive to us.

Thanks again for the education!

If you aren't bothered by the visible inclusions, then you can probably realize some savings vs the ones that are eye clean. While it's good to see manifested photos, it is impossible to judge the light performance without an idealscope/ASET scope image. Is it possible for you to request at least an idealscope image from the vendor?
 

PintoBean

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
6,408
fair75|1467831035|4052151 said:
PintoBean|1467824234|4052091 said:
fair75 said:
That's why I said it will be difficult to have an SI1/SI2 diamond that is 2 carat plus to be eye clean. However, it will be very rare. I also looked at diamond you were talking about. While I agree that is a pretty clean SI2, it will depend on the individual regarding the issue of eye-cleanliness. For example, people who have great eyes and tend to see inclusions easily, then it won't be eye clean to them. That's why I encourage seeing some diamonds in that range in person so the OP can have an idea. For me, that diamond would most likely not be eye clean. First of all, I am near sighted so I can hold a diamond closer to my eyes. I also look at any diamond from the top and the side to locate inclusions. If I can see any inclusion without a loup that way, the diamond won't be eye clean. I will also add that my eyes are trained so It's easier for me to spot inclusions. However, that is MY definition of eye clean and mine only. This is also why I emphasize the importance of knowing what an individual's definition of eye clean is and how comfortable he/she is with inclusions.
Hi fair75. Since we're talking about my unicorn - named "pollo" for its feathers, I wanted to chime in. The feather that IS visible is prongable. This is why I and others have deemed it eye clean. Rarely do you see SI-2s that don't look like they are the product of a diamond mother and a dalmation father.

Here is another eye-clean SI-2 that has a feather that "disappears" under the prongs - nearly 4 carats. This diamond was the inspiration for me to look through SI-2.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/3-98-rb-in-vatche-u113-thanks-to-idj.184808/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/3-98-rb-in-vatche-u113-thanks-to-idj.184808/[/URL]

As a point of reference, my avatar e-ring - named "frozen piss" because it's yellow ice, is a 1.5 ct VVS2. My EC is a 4.02 VVS2. My 1.52 MRB is a VS1. My 2.59 pink-brown "choco-berry finn" is a SI-1/2. My 0.78 MRB is an SI-1. As you can see, I own and have personally played with a bunch of diamonds with different clarity clarifications in different carat weights. I also have a judgey discerning mother who would tear my head off for wasting my money on a "dirty" diamond :lol: :lol: :lol: I have 20/30 vision without my glasses. I also deal with vendors that understand PS standard of eye-clean. I also like taking pictures of my diamonds with macro lenses. I also like to then zoom in on the pictures on my ipad or iphone. I also have a diamond loving bestie with eagle eyes that I ask to independently check out my diamonds prior to purchase (and I mean by independent - she goes and looks at the diamonds WITHOUT me there to influence her analysis). i also think I have mental illness because I touch up my walls with tiny watercolor paintbrushes. Can you tell I'm ANAL(ytical), royal pain in the butt, diamond hoarding, need addiction counseling, scrutinizing arsehat? :dance: :dance: :dance: As a Pinto Bean, I'm also flatulent in 3 languages, not to toot my own horn... :whistle: :loopy:

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. I think I made it very clear that everyone's standard of eye clean is different and that is 100% ok. I am also not saying that SI2 diamonds won't be eye clean. I am just saying it will very difficult/rare to find one. Now your standard of eye clean maybe the same as many PS vendors here, but it doesn't mean other people can't have their own. I have a very beautiful SI2 diamond and that is even cleaner than your 3 carat + diamond. It has a white feather located on the edge and it happens to blend in with one of the facets. I can honestly say that diamond is perhaps the cleanliest SI2 I have seen so far. It is extremely difficult to see that inclusion even with a 10x loupe if you aren't experienced with it. Even for me, I know it is located near the edge, I still have a hard time finding it without the right angles and tilt. I even brought it to some local jewelers and many of them thought it was at least VS1. Having said that, I am not implying your SI2 diamond isn't clean and beautiful. Like many others, I will have no problem buying a clean SI2 and save money at the same time. But how clean must it be? Nobody can answer that but the person who is buying/receiving the diamond. Some of my friends still insist on buying D-F, VVS2 to IF diamonds despite knowing that G/H, SI1-VS1 (some nice SI2) ideal cut diamonds will be virtually indistinguishable when set. I don't really agree with the need to go colorless and high clarity, but in their cultures, those types of diamonds symbolize purity and carry significant meanings.

If you look at my posts on PS so far, I encourage people to find out what their definition of eye clean is. They can either go to a store to see diamonds in person, or reply on the judgement of reputable PS vendors. If people live in the US, then it will be much easier for them because for the most part, they can return the diamonds and get the money back from most major online retailers.

In my opinion, many PS members, including myself, know that many lower clarity, lower color but ideal-cut diamonds can look very similar when they are set. However, not everyone has the same opinion. Some people prefer colorless and high clarity diamonds because of personal/cultural reasons and won't change their minds. But that's ok as well.
What are the specs of your diamond? You wanna trade?!?!?! i can always use a cleaner SI-2. :wavey:
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
31,829
superior|1467779510|4051928 said:
2.8 carat round brilliant
I color
SI-2 inclusions. On the GIA report they appear to be in the periphery. The diamond I'm told by the expert is "eye clean"
Strong blue fluorescence. Upon my specific request, they tell me it is not milky/hazy/oily. I think I am OK with fluorescence.

Table 56%
Depth 61.5%
Crown angle 32.0
Pavilion angle 41.2
IMO, the crown is too low.
 
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