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Opinion on diamond for e-ring please

philw007

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Assistance in picking between 2 diamonds...or if you have any other suggestions. Thanks much in advance.

Want F, VS2, ideal cut, would like h&a if possible, eye clean, would like med flouresence but not critical.

Looking at a james allen
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1279568.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131

specs seem pretty good (im a newb tho), hca 1.8, ags0, h&a

And looking at a blue nile
http://www.bluenile.com/build-your-own-diamond-ring?forceStep=DIAMONDS_STEP&track=tab#diamonds_forceStep=DIAMONDS_STEP|builder=BYOR|pid=LD01651876

specs seem even better (but no guarantee for h&a...only gcal looks good with arrows).

Thanks very much in advance for the help. Will likely be buying today or tomorrow! Yay!
 

yssie

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Both look nice, would request JA retake the hearts picture though. You are right re. BN & H&A. You *may* see a tiny difference in spread if you have the two in-hand together loose, but I think you would need eagle vision to note the spread difference once set.. VS2 should be clean to your specifications, whatever they are, and the price difference is negligible.

Given no other info I would choose the JA, as they do provide the IS and the hearts pic - and the buyback and upgrade policies, which BN does not, but given that they require you to spend double I know for me that could not be a consideration :rodent: But..does one vendor have exactly the setting you want?
 

philw007

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Thanks for the quick reply!

Price is about the same...so wondering is the "more perfect" specs of the BN outweigh the H&A of the james allen? Don't know which way to go there...

JA has a setting that the gf likes...(the tiny 1.6 with pave...something like
Platinum Thin French-Cut Pave Set Diamond Engagement Ring
http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/pave/ring/item_412-4042.asp
JA says they only fit up to a 1.25ct diamond tho...might be able to ask them to customize it?

BN also has a similar one that isn't quite as nice...for $400 more.
Petite Cathedral Pavé Diamond Engagement Ring
http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-engagement-ring-platinum_9917

So also considering having a local jeweler set one in their settings (like long or jared's)...

What do you think regarding which diamond would you go for? And which setting option? She knows they are both very thin and more delicate, but she is a small asian girl and cares more about the thin setting than the diamond!
 

yssie

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philw007 said:
Thanks for the quick reply!

Price is about the same...so wondering is the "more perfect" specs of the BN outweigh the H&A of the james allen? Don't know which way to go there...

There are a variety of proportion combinations that can result in a lovely stone - there's no set 1:1 correlation chart. And without a full helium-type scan of the likes that GOG provides the numbers only tell you so much, and we have to infer the rest - correctly or incorrectly. This is where a professional review is invaluable - and reflector technology photos like IS pics help fill the gaps.

JA has a setting that the gf likes...(the tiny 1.6 with pave...something like
Platinum Thin French-Cut Pave Set Diamond Engagement Ring
http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/pave/ring/item_412-4042.asp
JA says they only fit up to a 1.25ct diamond tho...might be able to ask them to customize it?

I definitely think that JA would customize it for your stone.

BN also has a similar one that isn't quite as nice...for $400 more.
Petite Cathedral Pavé Diamond Engagement Ring
http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-engagement-ring-platinum_9917

JA's version is I think 3/4 eternity, BN's looks like around 1/2. My issue w/ BN is that they don't (IMO) do a good job of choosing/altering the setting head for the centrestone's proportions - if you look at the "Recently Purchased" link for that setting and find the emerald cut diamond ring on the bottom row of the first page, you can see how the shoulders don't come up to "cradle" the stone at all - they're much too wide. I am confident JA will take more care with the proportions of stone vs. setting, even for a stock setting.
BNoops.jpg


So also considering having a local jeweler set one in their settings (like long or jared's)...

If possible you want to buy stone and setting from the same vendor and have them actually do the setting work. This is because of liability issues - on the off chance that something unfortunate happens during setting (not likely, but not impossible either) you don't want to give multiple vendors the chance to point fingers at each other. Most vendors will *not* take responsibility for any mishaps w/ a stone that's not theirs, and frankly it's understandable - that would be expensive! But, it means that you would need to arrange insurance for shipping and setting the loose stone, which also means two appraisals (one for the loose stone and then one for the completed ring), which will add to the cost and time...

What do you think regarding which diamond would you go for? And which setting option? She knows they are both very thin and more delicate, but she is a small asian girl and cares more about the thin setting than the diamond!

So long as she's aware that a thin setting with less metal and lots of melee will require babying 8) I would go for the JA - after requesting the hearts photo retake.
 

philw007

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Thanks again yssie!

So much great info...

So, i'm guessing that the nice symmetry proven by nice hearts and arrows on the ja outweighs the more ideal cut/specs of the bn? I was leaning that way myself but didn't know how to weight the difference.

I am in process of requesting the retake of the hearts...looking forward to your opinion!

Will also ask them about customizing the setting.

My gf actually prefers no side diamonds/pave diamonds...but no one seems to sell a 1.5mm width platinum solitare setting!
 

yssie

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philw007|1297790951|2852416 said:
Thanks again yssie!

So much great info...

So, i'm guessing that the nice symmetry proven by nice hearts and arrows on the ja outweighs the more ideal cut/specs of the bn? I was leaning that way myself but didn't know how to weight the difference.

What I'm really trying to say is - there is no *perfect* combination of proportions. Some people & companies consider some combos perfect, others prefer different proportions - there's no right or wrong answer. The BN does not have more ideal specs by any objective metric. And, at some point very close numbers mean very little visible difference IRL that is *known to be caused* by those differences - there may be variations in optical symmetry, nuances in brillianteering, etc as well, and it's difficult to pinpoint a direct cause and effect beyond some broader trends.

I am in process of requesting the retake of the hearts...looking forward to your opinion!

Will also ask them about customizing the setting.

My gf actually prefers no side diamonds/pave diamonds...but no one seems to sell a 1.5mm width platinum solitare setting!


Ohh - IMO that's a BIG difference! if she says she doesn't want side diamonds I would definitely inquire into customizing a plain setting.
 

slg47

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Yssie|1297789091|2852373 said:
Both look nice, would request JA retake the hearts picture though. You are right re. BN & H&A. You *may* see a tiny difference in spread if you have the two in-hand together loose, but I think you would need eagle vision to note the spread difference once set.. VS2 should be clean to your specifications, whatever they are, and the price difference is negligible.

Given no other info I would choose the JA, as they do provide the IS and the hearts pic - and the buyback and upgrade policies, which BN does not, but given that they require you to spend double I know for me that could not be a consideration :rodent: But..does one vendor have exactly the setting you want?

BN now has upgrade policy for their signature ideals (just found this when checking out the OP's choice)

Blue Nile Upgrade Guidelines
Diamond:

* Only Blue Nile Signature Diamonds purchased after January 1, 2011 are eligible.
* You will receive credit equal to 100% of the original Blue Nile Signature Diamond price.
* The new diamond you choose must be a Blue Nile Signature Diamond.
* The price of your new diamond must be at least 100% greater than the price of your original diamond.
* Your diamond must be in its original condition with the original diamond grading reports.
* Any excessive damage to the original diamond may exclude the diamond from our upgrade program.
* Your original diamond may only be returned for exchange.

Settings:

* The credit value will be based solely on the value of the diamond.
* If your setting fits your new diamond and is in reusable condition, we will set your new diamond in your original setting.
* If your original setting cannot be reused, you have the option of keeping the setting or accepting a credit as determined by Blue Nile.
* Any diamond not originally set by Blue Nile must be returned without the setting.

Diamond Grading Reports:

* The original diamond grading report must be returned in reusable condition. Fees may apply for any damaged reports.

to the OP: 1.5 mm is very thin-are you looking for such a thin band? some vendors will make a band that is 1.5 mm but usually the thinnest bands are around 1.8-2 mm.
 

yssie

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Oh - thanks for the heads up slg! That is a big policy change..
 

slg47

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Yssie|1297792051|2852428 said:
Oh - thanks for the heads up slg! That is a big policy change..

yes I wonder if it is in response to the other internet vendors upgrade policies? also another poster said BN is now providing images of diamonds (not just signature ideals?)
 

philw007

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Thank you slg!

GF is a small asian girl and really wants a small ring...to the point of rather having a smaller diamond than a bigger ring...she really likes the 1.5mm that she has seen at jared's...and both bn and ja have a similar one. She would prefer without the small pave diamonds and I think that would be stronger if it was just plat...but no one seems to have one liek that. I put in a request to ja to see if they can do one without the pave diamonds.

slg47|1297791736|2852426 said:
Yssie|1297789091|2852373 said:
Both look nice, would request JA retake the hearts picture though. You are right re. BN & H&A. You *may* see a tiny difference in spread if you have the two in-hand together loose, but I think you would need eagle vision to note the spread difference once set.. VS2 should be clean to your specifications, whatever they are, and the price difference is negligible.

Given no other info I would choose the JA, as they do provide the IS and the hearts pic - and the buyback and upgrade policies, which BN does not, but given that they require you to spend double I know for me that could not be a consideration :rodent: But..does one vendor have exactly the setting you want?

BN now has upgrade policy for their signature ideals (just found this when checking out the OP's choice)

Blue Nile Upgrade Guidelines
Diamond:

* Only Blue Nile Signature Diamonds purchased after January 1, 2011 are eligible.
* You will receive credit equal to 100% of the original Blue Nile Signature Diamond price.
* The new diamond you choose must be a Blue Nile Signature Diamond.
* The price of your new diamond must be at least 100% greater than the price of your original diamond.
* Your diamond must be in its original condition with the original diamond grading reports.
* Any excessive damage to the original diamond may exclude the diamond from our upgrade program.
* Your original diamond may only be returned for exchange.

Settings:

* The credit value will be based solely on the value of the diamond.
* If your setting fits your new diamond and is in reusable condition, we will set your new diamond in your original setting.
* If your original setting cannot be reused, you have the option of keeping the setting or accepting a credit as determined by Blue Nile.
* Any diamond not originally set by Blue Nile must be returned without the setting.

Diamond Grading Reports:

* The original diamond grading report must be returned in reusable condition. Fees may apply for any damaged reports.

to the OP: 1.5 mm is very thin-are you looking for such a thin band? some vendors will make a band that is 1.5 mm but usually the thinnest bands are around 1.8-2 mm.
 

yssie

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prefer the JA.
WF is a full colour grade lower for the same price and under the table in the IS looks a bit - fishy, it's a bit bigger but you wouldn't note that difference IRL once set.
 

philw007

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once again, thanks for the quick reply, yssie! you are the best!
 

yssie

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np, looking forward to seeing what you choose :))
 

philw007

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just finished talking to ja...they feel that the hearts image is real...ie no tilt or anything...but are going to relook at it and see if they can get a better picture. so if that is the true picture, the hearts are not as symmetric as i'd like...would that change your mind regarding which stone you would choose? Perhaps going with the bn or the wf? I noticed the hearts on the wf are very symmetric but the color is a g instead of f, not to mention the g wf is v.slightly more expensive.

Thanks in advance!

Oh, and if one vendor has an acceptable setting and the other doesn't (meaning i'd have to go to local jeweler to set), would the diamonds be close enough that you would just go with vendor that could set the diamond? Right now, it looks like ja needs to see if they can make the setting fit...and it will take at least a week. bn has an acceptable setting avail now and can ship next day...but not as pretty and 30% ($300) more expensive.
 

slg47

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well, you have to decide if having perfect H&A is worth it to you. I think the JA diamond would be a beautiful choice. Also, I would definitely try to get the stone and setting from the same vendor. However, my understanding is that some vendors will not make 1.4 mm settings because of durability issues-so you would need to check.
 

philw007

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Thanks slg...I do prefer to have a hna diamond...but am not sure that the ja true heart is a "good" enough hna diamond with the heart view symmetry? I am a newb, but am concerned that the heart view is not too symmetric...what is your opinion? Do you feel it is "symmetric enough" to be considered true hna?
 

slg47

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well...it's up to you. if you really want H&A then maybe that diamond isn't for you.
 

philw007

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I guess my question is whether the not perfect hearts on the ja true hearts is better "value" & "cut" (in regards to Light Return, Fire, Scintillation and Spread) vs the bn signature...or even the whiteflash aca (but its a g instead of the other two being f). I think I am looking at order of preference...cut (Light Return, Fire, Scintillation and Spread),true h&a, then value. I'm not sure if i'm making myself clear tho :(
 

yssie

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philw007|1297825621|2852864 said:
I guess my question is whether the not perfect hearts on the ja true hearts is better "value" & "cut" (in regards to Light Return, Fire, Scintillation and Spread) vs the bn signature...or even the whiteflash aca (but its a g instead of the other two being f). I think I am looking at order of preference...cut (Light Return, Fire, Scintillation and Spread),true h&a, then value. I'm not sure if i'm making myself clear tho :(


I think I understand the dilemma.

I don't have a cut and dried answer - only my own experience, but I will say that A) the definition of "perfect H&A" is a hot debate, and B) whether "perfect H&A" makes a visible difference in real-world performance is another hot debate.

What I advise is: go out and look at some branded H&A stones, and compare with non-branded well-cut stones, and see if *your eyes* can see a difference in various lighting types. If you have a HoF dealer nearby that is a good resource for H&As (look at them under a H&A viewer to make sure you're comparing apples to apples). That dealer may also have non-branded AGS0s or AGS1s that you can line up and do some blind tests with. Buy the stone, not the paper - but don't discount the power that "mind-clean-ness" has over our purchases: if "perfect hearts" is important to you to be satisfied with the stone, then that is not something to dismiss.

For me, personally, the JA would represent better value because I cannot note the difference in that same blind test.
 

philw007

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Thanks again yssie...I am leaning toward the ja. My gf has a couple hof items...ring with 5 small stones and heart necklace with 5 stones...they look very nice.

I guess my trepidation is the fear of the possibility that the bn stone (with no is images) might just be a perfect hna by chance as the paper specs are better as well as the hca. I guess I am wondering what is the chance that the bn stone will look better than the ja that comes with is pics?

My guess at the answer is that the ja stone is much more likely to have better light return/fire/scintillation/spread even tho the hca and paper specs are not as good?

And would that crystal in the center of the stone be visible? ja says its eye clean...

Another issue is the near perfect setting is @ bn...and compromise setting at ja. I am getting the feeling that they cannot modify the near perfect setting to fit :( Knowing that, would u go with the bn diamond even though you like the ja better?

Thanks!
 

stone-cold11

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philw007|1297872718|2853096 said:
I guess my trepidation is the fear of the possibility that the bn stone (with no is images) might just be a perfect hna by chance as the paper specs are better as well as the hca. I guess I am wondering what is the chance that the bn stone will look better than the ja that comes with is pics?

My guess at the answer is that the ja stone is much more likely to have better light return/fire/scintillation/spread even tho the hca and paper specs are not as good?

And would that cloud in the center of the stone be visible? ja says its eye clean...

No, not necessarily.

Do not use the HCA as a selection tool, it is a rejection tool.

Not likely for a VS2 grade. What cloud are you talking about? Both only has crystal.
 

philw007

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thanks stone cold...i was hoping you would respond as you seem to be the most critical of the hearts from the frequent posters!

Can I ask your opinion on the the ja hna (esp the quality of hearts and would you recommend it) vs the bn?

I also misspoke...i used cloud instead of crystal. I just see a black dot in the magnified view :razz:

Thanks!
 

stone-cold11

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Agreed that the hearts image is not the best. I would not buy a H&A that do not have the perfect hearts symm as there is a premium associated with that and I do not want to pay for something that is not there.
 

philw007

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Yssie, could you comment on the below questions?

And if your gf really likes the bn setting, would you be happy enough with the bn stone or would you then go with buying the bn setting separately and the stone from ja?

philw007|1297872718|2853096 said:
Thanks again yssie...I am leaning toward the ja. My gf has a couple hof items...ring with 5 small stones and heart necklace with 5 stones...they look very nice.

I guess my trepidation is the fear of the possibility that the bn stone (with no is images) might just be a perfect hna by chance as the paper specs are better as well as the hca. I guess I am wondering what is the chance that the bn stone will look better than the ja that comes with is pics?

My guess at the answer is that the ja stone is much more likely to have better light return/fire/scintillation/spread even tho the hca and paper specs are not as good?

And would that crystal in the center of the stone be visible? ja says its eye clean...

Another issue is the near perfect setting is @ bn...and compromise setting at ja. I am getting the feeling that they cannot modify the near perfect setting to fit :( Knowing that, would u go with the bn diamond even though you like the ja better?

Thanks!
 

stone-cold11

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Some BN settings cannot be bought without a stone.
 

philw007

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TY stone cold...called bn and confirmed that the setting cannot be purchased without the diamond...

whats your opinion on the bn vs the ja diamond at the same price?
 

yssie

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1. I agree w/ SC that I would not (usually) pay a H&A premium for a stone that does not show perfect hearts as seen through a hearts viewer.. but I think this is an unusual size, and so it's rather slim pickings - and the (admittedly unwarranted) premium of the JA is not an insurmountable obstacle.

I guess my trepidation is the fear of the possibility that the bn stone (with no is images) might just be a perfect hna by chance as the paper specs are better as well as the hca.

2. It's possible I suppose - very unlikely, but possible. There is a reason H&A stones are branded and stamped with a premium - the precision of cut required to produce that level of optical symmetry is not something a vendor can count on to happen by chance nearly often enough to stock an inventory with.

I guess I am wondering what is the chance that the bn stone will look better than the ja that comes with is pics?

My guess at the answer is that the ja stone is much more likely to have better light return/fire/scintillation/spread even tho the hca and paper specs are not as good?

As I said earlier there are no "perfect specs". If the numbers combine into a diamond that you like the look of, those are "your perfect specs".

Not sure why you think BN has better HCA and paper specs - as SC said, warnings on the HCA terms of use page clearly state that it is for rejection only (binary - above or below 2) 1.1 is not better than 1.8. Don't try to use it to select, it is not a precision-tool designed for selection.

As for the numbers themselves - honestly, I doubt you would see a difference. No doubt if you work in the trade and have been handling well-cut stones for several years you would spot the nuances quickly, but otherwise.. both will sparkle and glitter and I think that's about all anyone will notice! Would one sparkle and glitter "more" or "better to your eyes" than the other? No way to tell without more apples to apples info - the same person inspecting both at the same time, or from afar a video of them both, IS and more photos for the BN..

We can't give you the Do This, Not That answer that you're looking for because we just don't have the information or insight to be able to do that. Both are reputable vendors, both have the same policies apparently re. returns/upgrades of the stone. Reports from GIA, GCAL, and AGS are all well-respected.

Based just on the stone - I personally feel better knowing exactly what I'm buying when I'm buying it, and I personally feel that the AGS0 cut grade plus the light performance simulation printed on the report plus JA's IS tell me more about what I'm buying than the GIA report plus GCAL report, so that is how I would lean in spite of the H&A premium I know I would be paying (since I would paying one for the BN signature, too, for H&A that may or may not be present, it sorta evens out.. ) But... I really think from a purely real-world-visual standpoint both will be pretty stones, and that you won't go *wrong* choosing one over the other.

And would that crystal in the center of the stone be visible? ja says its eye clean...

3. Decide what eyeclean means to you. Clean from 5" face-up? From 15" face-up? From the sides? In most lighting types w/ 20/20 vision. Then ask JA and BN if the stones fulfill your specific requirements for eyeclean - different vendors have different in-house definitions of the word, which may or may not match your wants. VS2 should be clean to the pickiest specifications face-up.

Another issue is the near perfect setting is @ bn...and compromise setting at ja. I am getting the feeling that they cannot modify the near perfect setting to fit :( Knowing that, would u go with the bn diamond even though you like the ja better?

4. If you look at the picture I posted above from BN, you'll see that having the right style choice and having the right execution of that choice do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. That is my concern with choosing the BN setting. I saw you posted that BN will not sell that setting separately.. perhaps call in and find out what steps you must take to ensure that they set your diamond perfectly, and see if that gives you sufficient confidence.. you can also investigate return/redo/refund policy if the setting is not to your satisfaction.

It is a very basic setting - what did JA say about customizing it, exactly?
 

philw007

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Thanks so much, yssie, for the thoughtful response. You have done a great job holding my hand lol!

I think you figured me out...I am looking for reassurance that I am not making a mistake. And to confirm/test my knowledge of diamonds too...which everyone has been great about helping!

It is rather slim pickings for hna f/vs2...in fact its the only one! And in comparing the ja hna at the same price as the bn signature...its almost as if I am not playing the premium for the hna cert by ja...

If I drop to G/vs2...there are a few more options including a ja that has a nice hna picture! Perhaps I should consider this stone (2k less money)? Any opinions here?

Thanks for reassuring that i'm prob not missing out on a way better diamond at bn, yssie.

And, ok...I need to not use hca as a comparison...but just for weeding. I was concerned that the ex ex ex vg of the bn might mean a better stone than the ex vg vg vg of the ja...

As to the setting (ja 17158P), I have no idea why they cannot fit the stone to it...looks like an easy switch of prongs to make it work. The csr just said that they could not adapt the setting for the size of the stone. No real details in the email.

So...its off to try to see if any of the slightly thicker ja settings would be acceptable to her...or else "settle" for the bn stone.

Thanks again for the excellent opinions and assistance to all!

Yssie|1297889398|2853335 said:
1. I agree w/ SC that I would not (usually) pay a H&A premium for a stone that does not show perfect hearts as seen through a hearts viewer.. but I think this is an unusual size, and so it's rather slim pickings - and the (admittedly unwarranted) premium of the JA is not an insurmountable obstacle.

I guess my trepidation is the fear of the possibility that the bn stone (with no is images) might just be a perfect hna by chance as the paper specs are better as well as the hca.

2. It's possible I suppose - very unlikely, but possible. There is a reason H&A stones are branded and stamped with a premium - the precision of cut required to produce that level of optical symmetry is not something a vendor can count on to happen by chance nearly often enough to stock an inventory with.

I guess I am wondering what is the chance that the bn stone will look better than the ja that comes with is pics?

My guess at the answer is that the ja stone is much more likely to have better light return/fire/scintillation/spread even tho the hca and paper specs are not as good?

As I said earlier there are no "perfect specs". If the numbers combine into a diamond that you like the look of, those are "your perfect specs".

Not sure why you think BN has better HCA and paper specs - as SC said, warnings on the HCA terms of use page clearly state that it is for rejection only (binary - above or below 2) 1.1 is not better than 1.8. Don't try to use it to select, it is not a precision-tool designed for selection.

As for the numbers themselves - honestly, I doubt you would see a difference. No doubt if you work in the trade and have been handling well-cut stones for several years you would spot the nuances quickly, but otherwise.. both will sparkle and glitter and I think that's about all anyone will notice! Would one sparkle and glitter "more" or "better to your eyes" than the other? No way to tell without more apples to apples info - the same person inspecting both at the same time, or from afar a video of them both, IS and more photos for the BN..

We can't give you the Do This, Not That answer that you're looking for because we just don't have the information or insight to be able to do that. Both are reputable vendors, both have the same policies apparently re. returns/upgrades of the stone. Reports from GIA, GCAL, and AGS are all well-respected.

Based just on the stone - I personally feel better knowing exactly what I'm buying when I'm buying it, and I personally feel that the AGS0 cut grade plus the light performance simulation printed on the report plus JA's IS tell me more about what I'm buying than the GIA report plus GCAL report, so that is how I would lean in spite of the H&A premium I know I would be paying (since I would paying one for the BN signature, too, for H&A that may or may not be present, it sorta evens out.. ) But... I really think from a purely real-world-visual standpoint both will be pretty stones, and that you won't go *wrong* choosing one over the other.

And would that crystal in the center of the stone be visible? ja says its eye clean...

3. Decide what eyeclean means to you. Clean from 5" face-up? From 15" face-up? From the sides? In most lighting types w/ 20/20 vision. Then ask JA and BN if the stones fulfill your specific requirements for eyeclean - different vendors have different in-house definitions of the word, which may or may not match your wants. VS2 should be clean to the pickiest specifications face-up.

Another issue is the near perfect setting is @ bn...and compromise setting at ja. I am getting the feeling that they cannot modify the near perfect setting to fit :( Knowing that, would u go with the bn diamond even though you like the ja better?

4. If you look at the picture I posted above from BN, you'll see that having the right style choice and having the right execution of that choice do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. That is my concern with choosing the BN setting. I saw you posted that BN will not sell that setting separately.. perhaps call in and find out what steps you must take to ensure that they set your diamond perfectly, and see if that gives you sufficient confidence.. you can also investigate return/redo/refund policy if the setting is not to your satisfaction.

It is a very basic setting - what did JA say about customizing it, exactly?
 
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