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opinion needed on a diamond (i already have Cuellar D. Fraud''s)

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jswhigham

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I have a question on a specific diamond. I need to know if this is a decent value. The diamond is a 1.08ct, IGI certified, round ideal cut VS1- G. Here are the specs I was given: table 55% crown angle 34.6 deg crown height 15.5% pavilion angle 40.8 deg pavilion depth 43% The diamond is being sold by Sam's Club with the name Regal Elegance Colllection, they said it was cut by Blue Rose. The price is $4987 and includes a platinum setting. Your input is much appreciated.
Here are additional specs:
Measurements:
6.67 - 6.7 x 4.06mm
Girdle:
Medium average
fluorescence:
None
Age of grade report:
02-27-2003

Here is Fred's response. Feel free to comment.
Scott, This is a rock that should easily sell for over 8K! I would make the sale contingent on an independent appraisal. I'd bet good money the big boys at Sam's club squeezed I.G.I for some grade bumps. The Diamond Guy P.S. I also bet you is not bonded.

I also talked with one of his "gemologists. He said it was warped and wants to sell me his diamonds. Imagine that!


Is Fred right? How about his boy wonder? What are your opinions on the diamond?
Thanks,
Scott Whigham
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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31,003
Scott it sounds like it could be very nice from the info you have listed, but what is the total depth %? Should be something like 60% or around there?

I am sure I could calculate it but I'm way too lazy. With these #'s you can plug the stone into the 'cut advisor' calculator (link at top of this page) and see for yourself what the HCA thinks of it.

Have you heard it was 'warped'? Haaaaaa....

The #'s sound nice but give us the depth!
If it's a well cut stone, that price is very good IMO.
 

jswhigham

Rough_Rock
Joined
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26
I'm not exactly sure how to calculate it but the crown height is 15.5% and the pavillion depth is 43%. Do I have to add these to the girdle thickness (listed as medium average. I'm not sure of the percentage)to get the depth?
Btw, I edited my post to add fred's comment and his gemologist's opinion.
Thanks,
Scott


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On 7/9/2003 10:43:36 PM Mara wrote:

Scott it sounds like it could be very nice from the info you have listed, but what is the total depth %? Should be something like 60% or around there?

I am sure I could calculate it but I'm way too lazy. With these #'s you can plug the stone into the 'cut advisor' calculator (link at top of this page) and see for yourself what the HCA thinks of it.

Have you heard it was 'warped'? Haaaaaa....

The #'s sound nice but give us the depth!
If it's a well cut stone, that price is very good IMO.
----------------
 

phoenixgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 20, 2003
Messages
3,369
Ok, maybe I am wrong, but I think a medium girdle is 1.7%. If that is the case, the depth is approx, 60.2, and it scores 1.1 on the HCA with all excellents. Not bad!

However, IGI is known for being lenient in its grading. Would you be happy with an H VS2? What is the polish and symmetry?

It sounds like a great deal if the cut is as good as it seems. What is the return policy? Even if it is only 7 days, you can get an independent appraisal to verify the color and clarity. You can always return it if it doesn't match up.

Fred Cuellar is right that the price is low, but not terribly low for a stone without a GIA or AGS cert: http://www.whiteflash.com/acut/diamond_details.asp?ItemCode=474071 This is a 1.08 G VS1 EGL cert that's almost the same price.

Fred Cuellar made that whole bonded thing up. All you need is a reputable store with a good and fair return policy. He's the only one who calls it "bonded," so guess what! He's the only one who can save the day!
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Ha Ha the same old tale with Fred. Don't bother with a bonded stone...that is an old wives tale!

Also this stone would sell for $8k in a brick and mortar store maybe but not online. Excellently cut 1c G VS stones sell for around $6-7k online, and this would be a branded stone, 'superideal'...not just any old stone at a jewelers. So your $5k estimate for this stone AND a plat setting sounds pretty spot-on..like a good deal for a well-cut stone.

Anyway--on the IGI cert it should have total depth %? Do you have a copy of the cert? Anyway, from what I calc'd I think it'd be around 60.5% (with no girdle calc). 60.5 on HCA gives it a 1.2.

1.1 or 1.2 on HCA is excellent!
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Fred! Whee!
 

jswhigham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
26
Is the bottom line that its a good buy but not an unusually good buy?
Is it a good enough deal to go over budget on?
While I'm on a roll, on the diamond's IGI certificate beside the caret weight there was a (S) like this 1.08ct (S). What does this mean? Does it have any bearing on the quality or price of the diamond?
Also the IGI certificate states it has an estimated retail value of
$15875 where do they get this number from? Does it have any basis in reality? And lastly, The diamond was cut by Rosy blue. Anything special about them?
Thanks for the help.
Scott
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
31,003
I assume that Sam's Club has a return policy.

If you buy the stone, take it to an independent appraiser within your return policy window. They can confirm the grading for you and in doing that, confirm that yes you got a great deal. If it turns out that the stone is an H VS2...that is still very good and in my opinion, you still got a good deal, esp for an offline purchase. But if its something like an I SI1...then I would say you paid too much. However, I don't think the cert would be THAT off...hopefully anyway. I think the price is excellent IF it's a G VS1 and IGI was right on it's grading.

Definitely get the appraisal within your return window, it will set your mind at ease and the appraiser will let you know their expert opinion of the stone. Always a plus when they are not trying to sell you something!

The appraisal $ on the cert is a very inflated retail number, I guess it's supposed to be what you'd pay if you got it at a store, but other than a Tiffany/Cartier type store, most diamonds aren't marked up that heftily. It's a non-realistic # in my opinion. The diamond is worth what you end up paying for it, and that's it!


Can't help on the Rosy Blue or the (S) but most likely the Rosy Blue is just some branded cut for Sams Club or similar in order to impress the buyer. Run a search on Google for it and see if you find anything.

Good luck!
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
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1,441
Rosy Blue is a big cutter based in Antwerp. They sell diamonds all over the world.

js, any time you get an appraisal that is 3x the selling price, that is a big red flag. Most retail appraisals are inflated, but in this case, I think you have both an inflated appraisal and an overgraded stone. IGI is not known for its rigid grading. For once I think Fred is right here--something is fishy with this stone.
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
I assume it's IGI New York. Their have really improved in the recent past so I think they will not be off more than one grade. Even if it's G/VS 2 or H/VS 1 or even H/VS 2 it still ia a good price! The appraisal is OVERLY inflated and a faaaaaaaaaar cry from the real value.
Depth is 60.7%. The stone has a gorgeous make!
 

jswhigham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
26
Thanks for all the info .
I have a theory about the price at Sams.
Regardless of whether you look on their website or on the placard in the showcase,
the description is this:
Regal Elegance 1 ct. Round Platinum (I, VS2)$4,987.00.
This seems to be their standard price regardless of the particular stone.
Perhaps this particular diamond is particularly good (they probably bought many diamonds in a large lot paying a set price as they often do with other goods).
FWIW, The non commissioned sales lady who said she was a GIA gemologist (I'm not sure of the exact title) and seemed knowledgable, stated that she was very surprised at the quality, that it looked better than others she's seen at Sam's.

Any thoughts or opinions on this? If I make the sale contingent on an independent appraisal and the appraisal agrees with the IGI certificate will I be safe buying it. Will it be a great deal? If its average or just pretty good I will be looking for a 0.75ct or so diamond so I can pay cash and save a little debt.
Thanks everyone. Y'all are very helpful.
Scott
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Some posters have already told you the stone sounds very nice and the pricing sounds good. I suggest you find out the return policy and get that independent appraisal after purchase OR make the sale contingent upon the appraisal matching the IGI cert. And go to an independent and not someone that Sam's works with or recommends. That doesn't mean independent in all cases.

Going into debt for a purchase like this is never really 'good', but if you feel as though you can afford the extra amount and/or pay it off quickly, it's your decision on whether to go over budget on something. You make the final call.

Best of luck.
 

jswhigham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
26
Mara,
Thanks for being the voice of reason! I was starting to get buyers fever, getting my heart set on one particular item.
My girlfriend will be thrilled and impressed whether I get a 1ct or a .75ct Hi quality diamond.
Being an accountant, she would be equally impressed that I didn't go into debt.

Thanks everyone very much!
P.S. I'm sill interested in comments on my Sam's theory and any other comments.
Scott
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
I don't know how much in debt you are going. Only you know whether *you* can afford the extra.

At face value, the diamond sounds nice. Often "packages" are bought. In the package, a nicer stone could be included (one that may be graded as better than agreed upon specs).

All that said, if Sam's has a return policy & that stone speaks to you, buy it - have it appraised. If it is not what the specs say, return it.

Good luck.
 

jswhigham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
26
One thing I found out about this diamond is that it has a hearts and arrows pattern.
Does this have any bearing on the quality\price\value of this diamond?
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
31,003
H&A can sometimes be marked up even more than a non H&A stone, so that's definitely a good thing. Make sure you see the Hearts and Arrows pattern under a viewer or else its not really an H&A!
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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Messages
1,441
Okay, I am now Officially Suspicious of this diamond. I ran a search on PS for a 1.08 ct, H-VS1, H&A, and pulled up two close ones:

1.08 H-VS2:
http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=1689321 = $5903

1.09 GVS2
http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1057/v.cgi?stock=1316217&_s=1057&_p=abaz83&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps = $6583

...and these prices are for unmounted stones. I simply don't see how Sam's Club is going to undersell these two by a $1000 and still throw in a platinum setting.

Anyone else's eyebrows going up here?
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
31,003
Not sure LG...only that possibly because Sams is a discount warehouse type store...they are able to procure stones at wholesale pricing and sell to the public for less? I know our Costco locally has amazing deals on many things, stones and jewelry included that you can't find elsewhere, not even online at times.

In the past there was a thread on Costco/Sams rings and if I recall, the idea was that people had gotten some great deals there AND the stones came with more information than most B&M's give. I recall surfing around the Costco site and being surprised that they had stones with crown and pav information on the certs so that it was pluggable into the HCA. Not all stones came up stellar but they had some interesting results!

The stone sounds good, but who really knows. That's why Scott should have it checked out. It may be an awesome deal or a dud, but as long as he gets it appraised within his return policy, he should be covered if something goes wrong.
 

jswhigham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
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Thanks everyone for the great responses.
I decided to be prudent and purchase a diamond of known high quality that could be purchased without going into debt.
Here is the diamond I am purchasing:
Gia graded VS2-G 0.74ct round
diameter 5.87 ( 5.86- 5.88 )
crown angle 34.7 deg
crown height 15.3%
pavillion angle 40.4%
pavillion depth 42.4%
culet 1.1%
table 55.4%
total depth 61%
girdle thickness 1.0-1.4
flourescence none
Polish\Symmetry EX\EX

I'm purchasing this diamond from Diamond Brokers of Florida. Brad and Jan are an absolute pleasure to work with.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272

----------------
On 7/10/2003 6:58:13 PM LawGem wrote:
Okay, I am now Officially Suspicious of this diamond. I ran a search on PS for a 1.08 ct, H-VS1, H&A, and pulled up two close ones:

1.08 H-VS2:
http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=1689321 = $5903

1.09 GVS2
http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1057/v.cgi?stock=1316217&_s=1057&_p=abaz83&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps = $6583

...and these prices are for unmounted stones. I simply don't see how Sam's Club is going to undersell these two by a $1000 and still throw in a platinum setting.

Anyone else's eyebrows going up here?
----------------

Hey Lawgem

Yes it had my eye brows going up too. But then I've seen so much riff-raff in my day that nothing surprises me anymore. I guarantee you whoever purchases will get what they're paying for in the end. Every single time I've heard the deal of the century, once I had a chance to personally inspect the stone there is always an obvious reason why - once someone with an education and the proper equipment can inspect it to find out.

I meant to respond to another post of yours the other day but time wouldn't allow. Let me just say you're a great contributor to the forum and we all appreciate the sharp input you have to offer LG.

Kind regards,
Rhino
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Messages
6,272
40.4 pavilion angles! I haven't seen one like that in a while. How is it's optical symmetry? Thin arrows ... fat arrows? Curious as they produce different looks within super ideals. Brad and Jan will not steer you wrong.

Rhino
 

jswhigham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
26
----------------
On 7/17/2003 11:36:10 PM Rhino wrote:

40.4 pavilion angles! I haven't seen one like that in a while. How is it's optical symmetry? Thin arrows ... fat arrows? Curious as they produce different looks within super ideals. Brad and Jan will not steer you wrong.

Rhino
----------------
I'm a novice and this is my first diamond purchase so I'm not exactly sure how to answer the questions. Its not advertised as a Hearts and Arrows diamond,(do all diamonds have arrows?), but to my eye it looked very much like the H&A diamonds I looked at when examined through the viewer (I live about an hour from them so I had the pleasure of visiting their store).
Judging from the responses to this diamond,it looks like Brad and Jan indeed steered me in the right direction.
What makes the 40.4 pavilion angle desireable?
Thanks,
Scott
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441

----------------
On 7/17/2003 11:33:55 PM Rhino wrote:

I meant to respond to another post of yours the other day but time wouldn't allow. Let me just say you're a great contributor to the forum and we all appreciate the sharp input you have to offer LG.

----------------

And yours.

We have a great group of contributors here, and I'm happy to be part of this.

 

jswhigham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
26
----------------
On 7/18/2003 10:26
3 AM jswhigham wrote:

----------------
On 7/17/2003 11:36:10 PM Rhino wrote:

40.4 pavilion angles! I haven't seen one like that in a while. How is it's optical symmetry? Thin arrows ... fat arrows? Curious as they produce different looks within super ideals. Brad and Jan will not steer you wrong.

Rhino
----------------
I'm a novice and this is my first diamond purchase so I'm not exactly sure how to answer the questions. Its not advertised as a Hearts and Arrows diamond,(do all diamonds have arrows?), but to my eye it looked very much like the H&A diamonds I looked at when examined through the viewer (I live about an hour from them so I had the pleasure of visiting their store).
Judging from the responses to this diamond,it looks like Brad and Jan indeed steered me in the right direction.
What makes the 40.4 pavilion angle desireable?
Thanks,
Scott



----------------
Any answer?
Thx,
Scott
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
31,003
Rhino is on vacation so I don't know when you will get your answer
 
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