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Open letter to Ella and PSers.

JaneSmith

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Joined
Jun 11, 2012
Messages
1,589
Good morning,

I found PS accidentally, like many others, when looking for help with purchasing a special piece of diamond jewellery, and along with finding expert help with that, I found a community. Lucky me!
I love the Hangout forum, there are wonderful people here who share their stories, laugh, and commiserate with fellow PSers, and have great intelligent conversations and debate about a wide range of topics both controversial and lighthearted. I value the diversity of opinions here very much.

I notice, with much gratitude, that topics that address religion broadly are allowed as long as comments are respectful. Religion is such a pervasive part of the fabric of the cultures we live in and our lives personally that to avoid even tangential discussion would be impossible.
I am aware on a daily basis that many people in the public spaces I navigate in my life are taught by their various religions that I am wrong, dirty, sinful, and should feel guilty and less than because of who I am, and I should have some sort of horrible eternal punishment when I die. Some of those people are members of the government who make laws based on their dogmas. Some of those people belong to religions that state I should be killed for what I believe, and there are many countries in this world where people like me have been executed.
I do not feel persecuted by any stretch of the imagination, and I feel fortunate to live in a mainly secular country. However, I feel compelled to point out when the more odious religious teachings are affecting the law, culture, and individuals. I do my best to stick to the facts and keep my comments focused on the topic. I have never attacked or slandered someone because they hold beliefs I find antithetical to tolerance and inclusiveness, but I have and will argue against the beliefs themselves.
Nothing is gained by making something so sacred it is unable to be questioned, and I think we are all grown up enough to talk about things in our lives without getting too offended or being deliberately offensive.
I like, very much, to be able to talk to you wonderful people with your different points of view. You make me think. Thank you.
 

ksinger

Ideal_Rock
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5,078
You need to find some carrots or apples for Rocinante. He's looking extra tired after that last pass....
 

kenny

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Jane we'd be soulmates if souls actually existed instead of being yet another useful, but invented, idea to appear to answer unanswerable questions.

I'd be fine with all religions existing if they'd mind their own business and leave others alone .. but yes ... the enactment of laws is where the rubber meets the road.
The US ostensibly has separation of church and state (just don't read America's Pledge of Allegiance, or read what's been printed on American currency since the 1950s :nono: ).

Many, not all, religious people feel their religion applies to everyone (not just members) so they feel they are doing a good thing by weaving principles from their religion into the laws of the land ... like straight-only marriage.

Fortunately this is changing.
I am heartened that young people realize that respect for diversity should be, and WILL be, tomorrow's American mission statement.
Hopefully "Diversity We Respect" will replace that other saying on American currency.

There is a war raging, but eventually equality will win because it is a powerful force and morally-superior to the superior-inferior paradigm.
I am very optimistic.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
33,852
ksinger|1443809310|3934171 said:
You need to find some carrots or apples for Rocinante. He's looking extra tired after that last pass....
Karen...you still alive? can we talk politics instead of religions?... :bigsmile:
 

AGBF

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22,075
ksinger|1443809310|3934171 said:
You need to find some carrots or apples for Rocinante. He's looking extra tired after that last pass....

I had to look that up, Karen. Shame on me! ;)) But good on you. And I'm afraid that I agree with your sentiment. Jane is sanguine.

Deb :wavey:
 

Dancing Fire

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JaneSmith|1443808318|3934162 said:
Nothing is gained by making something so sacred it is unable to be questioned, and I think we are all grown up enough to talk about things in our lives without getting too offended or being deliberately offensive.
I like, very much, to be able to talk to you wonderful people with your different points of view. You make me think. Thank you.


Agreed!.. :appl:
 

Jambalaya

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AGBF|1443811238|3934182 said:
ksinger|1443809310|3934171 said:
You need to find some carrots or apples for Rocinante. He's looking extra tired after that last pass....

I had to look that up, Karen. Shame on me! ;)) But good on you. And I'm afraid that I agree with your sentiment. Jane is sanguine.

Deb :wavey:


At the risk of revealing my utter lack of brains, can anyone explain? I looked up the horse reference and still don't understand how it applies here.

Oh, well. I've never defined myself by my brains, which is fortunate. :lol:
 

kenny

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Jambalaya|1443816581|3934210 said:
AGBF|1443811238|3934182 said:
ksinger|1443809310|3934171 said:
You need to find some carrots or apples for Rocinante. He's looking extra tired after that last pass....

I had to look that up, Karen. Shame on me! ;)) But good on you. And I'm afraid that I agree with your sentiment. Jane is sanguine.

Deb :wavey:


At the risk of revealing my utter lack of brains, can anyone explain? I looked up the horse reference and still don't understand how it applies here.

Oh, well. I've never defined myself by my brains, which is fortunate. :lol:

I think it's a reference to the novel, Don Quixote.



I guess ksinger assumes everyone has read it and remembers it, or assumes in these days of Google we don't have to explain stuff some might find obscure.

ksinger is this so?

screen_shot_2015-10-02_at_1.png
 

Jambalaya

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4,655
Yes, I looked it up and he's this old workhorse. I still don't see how it applies in the context of Jane's post. Since this is the internet, I don't mind revealing my stupidity. :loopy:

ETA: Maybe I don't get it because I haven't read Don Quixote. I have, however, read much Jackie Collins.
 

Madam Bijoux

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5,312
I always liked Grane better than I liked Rociante.
There's always room to discuss religion and politics as long as we're civil to each other.
 

kenny

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31,605
Madam Bijoux|1443817961|3934223 said:
... There's always room to discuss religion and politics as long as we're civil to each other.

You'd think ...
Problem is, passion can burn hot when it comes to these subjects because many believe enormous good and and enormous harm are the result of politics and religions.

After multiple bannings I've totally thrown my hands up, given up, and shut up about Rockdiamond and have greatly watered down what I'll say on religion.
I love PS, and I'd like to stay.

PS is a private entity.
If anyone disagrees with PS rules they are free to not post here.

We are guests, and a condition of posting here is not going too far on those topics ... and certain members of a certain group that is used to getting it's way in America is QUICK to click that Report Post button.
Admin is a human and, like the saying goes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
I wouldn't like hearing lots of squeaks either, regardless of whether those squeaks are justified or not.
 

Dancing Fire

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[quote="kenny|

We are guests, and a condition of posting here is not going too far on those topics ... and certain members of a certain group that is used to getting it's way in America is QUICK to click that Report Post button.
Admin is a human and, like the saying goes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
I wouldn't like hearing lots of squeaks either.[/quote]



Not me, I have never use that button since becoming a member here... :saint: :praise:
 

Matata

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Sep 10, 2003
Messages
8,473
kenny|1443823770|3934249 said:
Madam Bijoux|1443817961|3934223 said:
... There's always room to discuss religion and politics as long as we're civil to each other.

You'd think ...
Problem is, passion can burn hot when it comes to these subjects because many believe enormous good and and enormous harm are the result of politics and religions.

I think we're getting better about discussing controversial issues. Some threads have gone on longer this year than they would have last year. I think (I hope) we're starting to realize that the purpose of discussion/debate is to share information about a problem in order to find common ground on which to build consensus for solutions. The purpose is not to change minds although that may be an outcome. It's our differences that lead to change.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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DF, I wrote "certain" members not all members, so my post stands.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Matata|1443825691|3934258 said:
kenny|1443823770|3934249 said:
Madam Bijoux|1443817961|3934223 said:
... There's always room to discuss religion and politics as long as we're civil to each other.

You'd think ...
Problem is, passion can burn hot when it comes to these subjects because many believe enormous good and and enormous harm are the result of politics and religions.

I think we're getting better about discussing controversial issues. Some threads have gone on longer this year than they would have last year.

+1

Matata|1443825691|3934258 said:
I think (I hope) we're starting to realize that the purpose of discussion/debate is to share information about a problem in order to find common ground on which to build consensus for solutions. The purpose is not to change minds although that may be an outcome. It's our differences that lead to change.

I don't agree with this part, in reality.
Lovely sentiment, though, in principle.

Let's be honest, good, bad, right, or wrong ... for the most part people post in hot-button threads to fix the 'broken' views of others.
I certainly do.

People vary.
Some have broken views. :lol:
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
33,852
kenny|1443826316|3934262 said:
DF, I wrote "certain" members not all members, so my post stands.
I wouldn't RAT OUT on a fellow Octavia owner... :praise: :lol:
 

packrat

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
10,614
I don't post to fix broken views-for all I know my views are broken. I've changed my views on certain things and become more open minded b/c of people on the internet and off, who took the time and had the patience to really talk about things w/me w/out being judgmental, without the assumption that my views were "broken". If you go into it w/a fixed mindset, the outcome is a given. Growth mindset, people. Growth.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
31,605
Dancing Fire|1443830624|3934275 said:
kenny|1443826316|3934262 said:
DF, I wrote "certain" members not all members, so my post stands.
I wouldn't RAT OUT on a fellow Octavia owner... :praise: :lol:

Octavites are the ultimate political party and religion. :lol:
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
9,766
I agree I wish we could all talk openly about politics, religion and gun control without there being yet another pile on, name calling and posts getting banned. I live in a culture where mostly people seem to take themselves less seriously even when discussing issues that are serious ones so I don't get the need for personal attacks from overly zealous faceless members behind screens.
 

kenny

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arkieb1|1443853030|3934374 said:
I agree I wish we could all talk openly about politics, religion and gun control without there being yet another pile on, name calling and posts getting banned. I live in a culture where mostly people seem to take themselves less seriously even when discussing issues that are serious ones so I don't get the need for personal attacks from overly zealous faceless members behind screens.

I live in So. California and one of the most free-thinking, tolerant and liberal places on earth.
Even here when with others (physically) we don't talk as openly as people do on Internet fora.

I think the main reason for the ... uhm ... excessive enthusiasm here is we are not face to face in the same room.
The anonymity of the Internet offers safety from being punched in the nose, or worse.

Also in real life most of us probably tend to hang out with people who are similar to us, big-city vs. rural, similar income, education levels, politics and religion.
Not so on an Internet forum.
Here you really get a cross section of people, which can be very vibrant or a stick of dynamite just waiting for something to light its fuse.
 

arkieb1

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I guess Kenny in part I agree it's easy to a bully online and many people say things online they might not do face to face. Some people probably have bad days and it's easy to take it out on someone they don't know than deal with their own issues at home.

I think part of it is cultural as well. Well respected Aussies have written articles on the fact many American's don't get the Australian sense of humour - we have a way of saying things that I guess most of you might find combative or offensive when its part of a very laconic sense of fun, and most of us don't take ourselves generally as seriously as most Americans do.

We can sit at a table full of strangers and say stuff and while it might get heated everyone will have a drink and crack a joke and get over it, and we don't have this fierce sense of righteousness unpinning or ingrained in our belief system generally. To put it in context, maybe overall we live more like a society of super laid back Californians with even less of a religious based set of values underpinning how we define ourselves. Not to say that we don't believe in God, because many Australians hold very strong religious beliefs we just have a way of promoting a level of openness and tolerance here that is different to the US.

On the flip side of that, I find it fascinating that the US has ruled in favour of same sex marriages, yet here we have not. All the while we are by in large less of a religious society than yours (by this I mean less people statistically believe in God or a deity). Having said that look at Ireland, one of the most religiously conservative places also now politically supports same sex marriage so being religiously tolerate obviously is no indicator of broader political values.

We have a very different set of values when it comes to things like guns and going to war. We have a very different cultural identity to you and I think this makes us more and less passionate about different things, ideals and beliefs, and following on from that generally more open to different ideas and opinions and the free discussion of them.
 

ksinger

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Jambalaya|1443816581|3934210 said:
AGBF|1443811238|3934182 said:
ksinger|1443809310|3934171 said:
You need to find some carrots or apples for Rocinante. He's looking extra tired after that last pass....

I had to look that up, Karen. Shame on me! ;)) But good on you. And I'm afraid that I agree with your sentiment. Jane is sanguine.

Deb :wavey:


At the risk of revealing my utter lack of brains, can anyone explain? I looked up the horse reference and still don't understand how it applies here.

Oh, well. I've never defined myself by my brains, which is fortunate. :lol:

I just told Jane - indirectly, because NOTHING on this site can be said directly without risk - that like Don Quixote, she is tilting at windmills to try to discuss religion here.
 

missy

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ksinger|1443870176|3934411 said:
Jambalaya|1443816581|3934210 said:
AGBF|1443811238|3934182 said:
ksinger|1443809310|3934171 said:
You need to find some carrots or apples for Rocinante. He's looking extra tired after that last pass....

I had to look that up, Karen. Shame on me! ;)) But good on you. And I'm afraid that I agree with your sentiment. Jane is sanguine.

Deb :wavey:


At the risk of revealing my utter lack of brains, can anyone explain? I looked up the horse reference and still don't understand how it applies here.

Oh, well. I've never defined myself by my brains, which is fortunate. :lol:

I just told Jane - indirectly, because NOTHING on this site can be said directly without risk - that like Don Quixote, she is tilting at windmills to try to discuss religion here.

Yes but progress is being made and at least we can discuss some issues (however superficially and indirectly) we were not allowed to discuss just a few years ago. Baby steps...better than not moving forward at all.

Jane, I always find myself nodding in agreement with your posts. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.
 

kenny

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arkieb1|1443856973|3934385 said:
I guess Kenny in part I agree it's easy to a bully online and many people say things online they might not do face to face. Some people probably have bad days and it's easy to take it out on someone they don't know than deal with their own issues at home.

I think part of it is cultural as well. Well respected Aussies have written articles on the fact many American's don't get the Australian sense of humour - we have a way of saying things that I guess most of you might find combative or offensive when its part of a very laconic sense of fun, and most of us don't take ourselves generally as seriously as most Americans do.

We can sit at a table full of strangers and say stuff and while it might get heated everyone will have a drink and crack a joke and get over it, and we don't have this fierce sense of righteousness unpinning or ingrained in our belief system generally. To put it in context, maybe overall we live more like a society of super laid back Californians with even less of a religious based set of values underpinning how we define ourselves. Not to say that we don't believe in God, because many Australians hold very strong religious beliefs we just have a way of promoting a level of openness and tolerance here that is different to the US.

On the flip side of that, I find it fascinating that the US has ruled in favour of same sex marriages, yet here we have not. All the while we are by in large less of a religious society than yours (by this I mean less people statistically believe in God or a deity). Having said that look at Ireland, one of the most religiously conservative places also now politically supports same sex marriage so being religiously tolerate obviously is no indicator of broader political values.

We have a very different set of values when it comes to things like guns and going to war. We have a very different cultural identity to you and I think this makes us more and less passionate about different things, ideals and beliefs, and following on from that generally more open to different ideas and opinions and the free discussion of them.

This is very interesting to read.
I have a close friend who teaches ESL, English as a Second Language.
She even authors published textbooks on the subject.
She's told me a country's sense of humor is one of the last things a person from another culture will 'get', even after becoming fully fluent in the new language.
Even after 'getting' it, it won't 'hit their funny bone' like it will a native.

Things funny in one culture may not be funny in another.
One example is in America someone sitting on a chair that collapses and sends them crashing to the floor would be seen as funny to most; In Japan that's not funny. ... allowing of course for variation among individual observers.

I love my country, America, but I'm fully aware of its dark side and IMO deeply-ingrained piety is one source of its dark side.
 

smitcompton

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Hi Jane,

These types of posts are never a discussion. By this time, I often know how a particular person will respond and , I find useless commentary over and over again. What I have never found are people working toward a consensus of sorts. I like to try to come up with possible solutions. Perhaps one way of dealing with this would be to limit opposing views. Have two separate threads going for discussions where people agree with one another or can vent without the screeching of opposing views.(I cant stop myself from making absurd suggestions) =)

You want to be able to criticize religion. You have been and are deeply offended by views that make you feel less than. So, even if you talk about facts, you are presenting such in order to change someones mind about their own views, or make a statement that is a general condemnation of certain views. Beliefs and facts are not necessarily compatible, so it becomes a circular argument.

People do not speak this way in real life. I have had many discussions about religion and never, ever had anyone say or respond they way people do here. All religions have their absurdities, and most people are born into the religion they hold now and no longer give it any thought. Its part of them. We have been taught things to love and things to despise. Some see the errors of the past, others are slower.

Ella has been generous in recent threads and allowed some leeway. Perhaps you can persuade her.,


Annette
 

MarionC

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Jambalaya|1443817417|3934219 said:
ETA: Maybe I don't get it because I haven't read Don Quixote. I have, however, read much Jackie Collins.
:lol:
 

Jambalaya

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Jimmianne|1443961709|3934703 said:
Jambalaya|1443817417|3934219 said:
ETA: Maybe I don't get it because I haven't read Don Quixote. I have, however, read much Jackie Collins.
:lol:


Hey, why are you laughing at this intellectual powerhouse? Jackie Collins was one of the greatest philosophers of lurrrve in our times. May she and her pen rest in peace. :D

I wish there were some notable horses of substance in her work that I could quote, but I can't think of any. All her horses can think about is where their next bale of hay is coming from and how well their coats glint in the sunlight. :lol:
 

kenny

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Oh Jambalaya, stop horsing around. :mrgreen:
 

Jambalaya

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Hahaahaa! Good one!

Now I'm going to read this Don Quixote fellow. *sticks tongue out in concentration*
 

ksinger

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It would probably be more fun to just see a production of Man of La Mancha. Or see if you can find the movie with Peter O'Toole and Sophia Loren.
 
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