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Old Mine Cut - too deep?

essjay

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
7
Hi everyone,

Thought I'd post on here to get some advice, I'm really torn about this Old Mine Cut diamond and I'm not sure what to do.

My soon to be fiance and I have gone to a bunch of jewelers and fell in love with this stone from Adam at Old World Diamonds in NYC. However, we're concerned it's too deep relative to others we have seen here on PS. It's really beautiful in person though, with chunky facets.

Attaching the GIA cert, and a picture we took of the diamond when viewing it (note it was a gloomy day so there was not much sparkle happening).

What do you guys think?
 

Attachments

maryjane04

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
521
Aww I love OMC! Adam has a very good eye so I would trust him. OMC are cut deeper but it shouldn't impact the beauty of the stone - just faces up smaller that's all. Are you able to get videos of the diamond in different lighting? Indoors/outdoors/sunlight/incandescent lighting?
 

LightBright

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
823
I’m not really sure what the problem is when you say the stone is too deep.

Sometimes when a stone is very deep, it is a little harder to set in a ring setting because the pavilion is deeper, but that “problem“ is usually not insurmountable.

Sometimes a stone that is deep is smaller in diameter than a stone that is shallower, so you lose finger coverage but you still pay for the carat weight. (Eg a 2 carat deep diamond could look for example like a 1.75 carat diamond, which is typical for old cuts and especially for old mine cuts).

A true antique deep stone might not have the same light return as an ideal cut “not deep“ stone. For example, my old mine cut doesn’t throw off the same kind of white light as my shallower OEC. I’m guessing that an ASET would show leakage. But in spotlights or dim lights it’s a sparkle bomb. It is a different “look”. Koizibe (love it) is an additional bonus in some old mine cuts.

What I would look for is that the crown is deeper than the pavilion in an old cut, because a deep crown will give you a nice chunky look. I would be more hesitant to invest in a deep pavilion with a shallower crown, only because the pavilion is invisible once set, and you are paying for that carat weight sunk in the pavilion. But the cutter will have determined this ratio and if it’s beautiful, anything goes.

Then there is overall look to the stone. Light return should be balanced. My old mine looks very different in different types of light. You should look at it in at least a couple different types of light. Do you like the diameter size, the color, do you like the liveliness, do you like the light return?

In my opinion, a “deep” stone is very typical of an authentic old mine cut and it’s a very nice thing, not a negative, Just my opinion.
 
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essjay

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
7
Aww I love OMC! Adam has a very good eye so I would trust him. OMC are cut deeper but it shouldn't impact the beauty of the stone - just faces up smaller that's all. Are you able to get videos of the diamond in different lighting? Indoors/outdoors/sunlight/incandescent lighting?
Thanks for the response, we will ask Adam for a video and get back to you!
 

ItsMainelyYou

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Messages
967
That stone is chonky goodness. The secret to old cuts is finding the one that 'sings' for you.
RBC parameters don't really apply. Did this stone speak to you? If so then it's yours, if not, one will and it'll be determined primarily by your eye, not the specs.
Need videos and more pictures!
 

essjay

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
7
I’m not really sure what the problem is when you say the stone is too deep.

Sometimes when a stone is very deep, it is a little harder to set in a ring setting because the pavilion is deeper, but that “problem“ is usually not insurmountable.

Sometimes a stone that is deep is smaller in diameter than a stone that is shallower, so you lose finger coverage but you still pay for the carat weight. (Eg a 2 carat deep diamond could look for example like a 1.75 carat diamond, which is typical for old cuts and especially for old mine cuts).

A true antique deep stone might not have the same light return as an ideal cut “not deep“ stone. For example, my old mine cut doesn’t throw off the same kind of white light as my shallower OEC. I’m guessing that an ASET would show leakage. But in spotlights or dim lights it’s a sparkle bomb. It is a different “look”. Koizibe (love it) is an additional bonus in some old mine cuts.

What I would look for is that the crown is deeper than the pavilion in an old cut, because a deep crown will give you a nice chunky look. I would be more hesitant to invest in a deep pavilion with a shallower crown, only because the pavilion is invisible once set, and you are paying for that carat weight sunk in the pavilion. But the cutter will have determined this ratio and if it’s beautiful, anything goes.

Then there is overall look to the stone. Light return should be balanced. My old mine looks very different in different types of light. You should look at it in at least a couple different types of light. Do you like the diameter size, the color, do you like the liveliness, do you like the light return?

In my opinion, a “deep” stone is very typical of an authentic old mine cut and it’s a very nice thing, not a negative, Just my opinion.
Thanks, LightBright! Super helpful info here, and appreciate you taking the time to type this all out.

A couple follow up questions here...
From the GIA certificate I posted, can you tell if the crown is deeper than the pavilion? Or do I need to get crown and pavilion angles in order to be able to determine that?

What's koizibe? Tried Googling around but didn't find anything definitive. I'm curious...

In terms of light and sparkle, we saw it in both gloomy overcast weather and bright sunshine (albeit inside an ofice, but next to a window), and we definitely liked the light it returned.

One of the reason we were were concerned it's too deep, is are you then overpaying for carat size that get hidden by the setting? However, as a loose stone, the deepness really made it fantastic to look at it (especially side by side with other, shallower stones).
 

essjay

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
7
That stone is chonky goodness. The secret to old cuts is finding the one that 'sings' for you.
RBC parameters don't really apply. Did this stone speak to you? If so then it's yours, if not, one will and it'll be determined primarily by your eye, not the specs.
Need videos and more pictures!
It really did speak to us!!! I like the way you phrased that. It's definitely held a place in our heart and we have compared every other stone we've seen to this one.

OK, going to get more videos and pictures from Adam tomorrow :)
 

monipod

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
569
Oh it's gorgeous. Exactly what you want in an OMC... *drools*

Only problem with 'too deep' is that it may face up smaller relative to carat weight.

Love to see more pics!
 

LightBright

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
823
Thanks, LightBright! Super helpful info here, and appreciate you taking the time to type this all out.

A couple follow up questions here...
From the GIA certificate I posted, can you tell if the crown is deeper than the pavilion? Or do I need to get crown and pavilion angles in order to be able to determine that?

What's koizibe? Tried Googling around but didn't find anything definitive. I'm curious...

In terms of light and sparkle, we saw it in both gloomy overcast weather and bright sunshine (albeit inside an ofice, but next to a window), and we definitely liked the light it returned.

One of the reason we were were concerned it's too deep, is are you then overpaying for carat size that get hidden by the setting? However, as a loose stone, the deepness really made it fantastic to look at it (especially side by side with other, shallower stones).
Hi, I was unable to access the GIA report. A side photo/view will likely tell you proportions. It would be splitting hairs to try to find an antique old mine cut that is puffier in the crown than the pavilion but many are.

Koizibe Looks like little round circles floating in the diamond from certain angles. It’s in one type of old mine cut, usually very deep cuts with steep crown angles. Mine doesn’t have koizibe, for example so FYI it’s a flavor not a definitive aspect. . : http://instagr.am/p/CCaFJvBhsPE/


I think you knew what you were looking at when you say you love the look of a deep cut. And if you love what it looks like in terms of light return in a couple types of light, and like the finger coverage, it sounds good to me. Please post more photos and videos. Adam has a great eye and inventory, so it’s likely a winner from that perspective.
 
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Lessics

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
585
As you said a deeper stone has this beautiful architectural element to it that shallower stones miss!
 

PreRaphaelite

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,863
That stone is chonky goodness. The secret to old cuts is finding the one that 'sings' for you.
RBC parameters don't really apply. Did this stone speak to you? If so then it's yours, if not, one will and it'll be determined primarily by your eye, not the specs.
Need videos and more pictures!
Truer words were never said!
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
41,930
All I can say is yummy.
Please share more photos and videos so we can continue drooling.:drool:
 

Roselina

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 1, 2020
Messages
577
If you really want an OMC, you will most certainly end up with a smaller appearance compared to what you get when you would purchase a MRB the same carat weight. It's not exactly overpaying but rather just part of the game when choosing a beautiful OMC instead. And a 3 ct OMC will still face up a lot bigger than most engagement rings out there. I'd say, go for it!
 

essjay

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
7
Thanks everyone for the helpful responses, we really like the stone and wanted to get your expert opinions! See attached some additional photos and a video from Adam. Understand OMC's typically have a deeper profile and it helps to reflect the light through the stone. This one in particular has a 8.38mm length and our only concern was that we have seen others that are lower or similar carat weight (this one is 3.07) that have a similar or larger spread (example A and B).



IMG_3557.jpeg IMG_3561.jpeg IMG_3557.jpeg IMG_3561.jpeg IMG_3564.jpeg IMG_3559.jpeg

Screen Shot 2020-10-22 at 11.08.02 AM.png
 
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maryjane04

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
521
That stone you picked from OWD is very pretty. What you get is a fireball.

I too am buying an OMC and share the same concerns as you. Although the other diamonds might have a bigger spread, it often comes as a compromise to something else. I'm not saying that these stones in particular have issues but I've seen some shallower stones with fish eye or darkness in the centre which your stone doesn't. Other factors to include is that VB prices are reflective of their spread as well and not just the carat weight or so it seems.

I guess it's hard to compare based on stats alone because these stones were cut 100+ years ago so each one is unique and have to be judged on their own merit.
 

maryjane04

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
521

essjay

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
7
What about these ones if you're concerned about spread?


Really like the second option, the 3.20 carat. That's beautiful. When I looked at the GIA cert though, it said Strong Blue next to Fluorescence, is that something to be concerned about?
 

maryjane04

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
521
Really like the second option, the 3.20 carat. That's beautiful. When I looked at the GIA cert though, it said Strong Blue next to Fluorescence, is that something to be concerned about?
I actually prefer the strong blue fluor as it can help make the stone face up whiter. I guess it's a preference. It doesn't seem to make the diamond hazy or negatively impact it in any way.
 

LightBright

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
823
I love the diamond you posted photos and videos of from Old World Diamonds. To me, it looks like a classic old mine cut, with a beautiful tall crown, koizibe and fire. If you love it, I think it’s a gorgeous unique diamond. IMO, the internal light play of OMCs is really interesting and a joy. Very pretty!

Regarding the second link (both of these look more Old mine cushion) from Jewels by Grace, that’s gorgeous too. You have to see strong blue fluorescence in person to assess how you like it. Many people love it. Diamond in First link looks gorgeous too. It all boils down to what -you- like...
 
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elizat

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Messages
2,159
I pretty much buy OMCs almost exclusively. They are my favorite.

Numbers don't matter like they do for a modern round. It is what your eyes like.

I really like the OWD stone. Adam has a good eye. It has a very nice on/off facet pattern.

The video on the Grace stone is poor quality- I can't really see how it performs.
 

jaaron

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
837
I think it's really pretty. One thing to possibly take into consideration is how you'd want it set. I like mine as low to my finger as possible-personal preference only-and if a significant portion of the weight is in the depth, you'll obviously have a higher diamond in the end.

ETA: my current stone has strong blue fluorescence. I've never seen one irl before and wasn't sure how I'd like it. So far the only thing I've found is that it's extremely white for an M.
 

maryjane04

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
521
ETA: my current stone has strong blue fluorescence. I've never seen one irl before and wasn't sure how I'd like it. So far the only thing I've found is that it's extremely white for an M.
So jealous! I definitely think SBF helps.
 

essjay

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
7
I think it's really pretty. One thing to possibly take into consideration is how you'd want it set. I like mine as low to my finger as possible-personal preference only-and if a significant portion of the weight is in the depth, you'll obviously have a higher diamond in the end.

ETA: my current stone has strong blue fluorescence. I've never seen one irl before and wasn't sure how I'd like it. So far the only thing I've found is that it's extremely white for an M.
Agree with your opinion on the setting, I think low profile is the way to go. Adam said that despite the stone being slightly deeper, he can set it in a similar way to a shallower stone - although I would still imagine it would be slightly higher. We were thinking of going with a more classic platinum setting!

Thanks again everyone for the input, we really appreciate it. This forum has been a great way to discover OMC's and help us find Adam!
 
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