OECs online: how to evaluate? Help with this one?

[evergreen]

Searching for a RB online seems pretty straightforward and concrete, with numbers, photos if you can, etc. I've been religiously HCAing all the RBs I find and have started to get a "mind-clean" problem with HCAs > 2, despite never having compared a good or bad HCA score with its live-in-person diamond.

But I keep seeing beautiful OECs - photos on here, videos from GOG and JBEG... I love the pastels and the chunky flashes, and really respect the users - and their gorgeous taste in jewelry! - on here who <3 their OECs. (Um, again, never having seen an OEC in person... but video should be pretty good, right?)

I emailed a PS vendor with the specs I'm looking for, and they came up with this stone (attachments). My criteria are (1) beautiful cut, (2) fluoro -- prefer strong, though medium is a second choice, and (3) an inclusion I can see when I look for it - to recognize my stone - but not in-your-face for casual observers.

I put this stone's numbers into the HCA and got, not even a score, but an angry, orange warning: "Shallow pavilion can cause a fish-eye. Should not be considered for purchase."

So -- help? Did I make my first mistake by HCAing an OEC (with only %crown and %pav to go on, no less)? How do you shop for OECs online? And what do you think of this one?

 

[Dreamer_D]

No, the HCA is not good for OECs! Pictures, video, and your eyes are the tools you need.

I think that is a good start! My only concern is the depth. It is shallow for an OEC, which would usually have a depth around 65% plus though there are no real rules. There is the possibility of fish eye or unpleasant optics under the table. Your vendor should be able to tell you if this is a problem. ETA: this is unlikely from the photo and because the table is so nice and small, but something to think about. The trade off is it is facing up huge for the carat weight for an OEC.

Who is your vendor? Can they make a video for you? What is the price of the diamond?

 

[InnaR]

Based on the pictures it looks like a stone from Adam. He does tend to suggest on a shallow OECs and OMCs (not sure if it's a bad thing or not, but it certainly allows for a greater spread). Hard to evaluate a color based on this picture. I know that Adam (if it's him) can make a video and post it on the youtube.
Based on the pictures it looks like an early OEC with small facets. This stone will return more of tiny than broad flashes (just my guess)

 

[Dreamer_D]

The faceting looks a lot like me own OEC, actually, but my stone is a lot deeper, 67%.

 

[evergreen]

Wow, well done, InnaR! Indeed, it is an OWD stone, and I'll ask Adam to post a video. Interesting that you think it'll show smaller flashes (I have no idea how to evaluate this!).

Dreamer, thanks for the reassurance. I'll banish that orange warning message from my mind. The stone's price is $10,684. And as long as its light performance doesn't suffer in the video, I've gotta level with you - I am a bit of a size gal, so love the shallow depth from the numbers.

Newbie question: I don't really recognize OEC faceting patterns (yet). Any help on what you're both seeing in the facets that suggests smaller flashes, or that reminds your of your stone, Dreamer?

 

[evergreen]

Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5fUA_XOKMA&feature=player_embedded

What do you think? Two things strike me: maybe it's the lighting, but it does look a little dark. Also, the inclusion - a crystal on the EGL plot, and from the video, it must be dark carbon - is pretty noticeable in the beginning and end of the video. While I do want to be able to see the grade-setting inclusion, is it too obvious? (It really drew my eyes!)

 

[InnaR]

Wow, well done, InnaR! Indeed, it is an OWD stone, and I'll ask Adam to post a video. Interesting that you think it'll show smaller flashes (I have no idea how to evaluate this!).

Dreamer, thanks for the reassurance. I'll banish that orange warning message from my mind. The stone's price is $10,684. And as long as its light performance doesn't suffer in the video, I've gotta level with you - I am a bit of a size gal, so love the shallow depth from the numbers.

Newbie question: I don't really recognize OEC faceting patterns (yet). Any help on what you're both seeing in the facets that suggests smaller flashes, or that reminds your of your stone, Dreamer?

OK, here is how I see it based on what my eyes tell me. Both in the this picture and the video i see that almost every facets is divided into two and some of them produce intersections (sorry if i'm sounding confusing). So this pattern produces more tiny flashes then a later OEC/Transitional where every facet stands on it's own and reflects light in a bolder bigger flashed.
I like both patterns and equally enjoy them. My taste moved from OMC, to OEC and now i'm admiring trannys.
To tell you the truth, i'm not a big fan of this particular one. It's either the stone or the video that makes the faceting look blurry.
I would look into JBEG inventory. They provide most amazing videos and an upgrade policy.

 

[evergreen]

Well, Adam did apologize for the blurry video - he's having trouble with his camera. Thanks for your explanation of how you see the faceting patterns - I do see what you mean. JBEG only has two stones listed in my price range and carat target... and fluorescence is really important to me (neither stone's description mentions fluoro, though I did email to ask).

In general, Adam's video doesn't seem as "glamour-shot" as JBEG's -- y'know, plain white background so no flashy pastels, no sun or spotlighting for fire and scintillation. In comparison to JBEG, these images do fall flat, but I don't know if I can fairly blame the stone!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Well, I am going to try to put aside my total shock at retail prices of OECs for a moment But if I was paying retail, I would want *exactly* the most perfect OEC for me that I could find. No compromises.

I would not want a big spec like that in my diamond. You don't really need to worry about the whole "identifying my diamond" thing with old cuts. Each is unique. No one could switch your stone, you would notice immediately.

The darkness is camera reflection. That video does not really help too much. Adam's word and impression is enough/more important. All I personally can tell from that video is that the stone has a nice facet pattern, nice looking drown height, a little shallower in the pavilion that you often see. So not much more than we "knew" already.

As for your question about how to differentiate different cuts os OEC, you need to search "OEC" and "European Cut" here on PS and get reading! Also spend a billion hours looking at OECs on ebay and other sources. I think the biggest contributors to different looks for OECs are symmetry and lower girdle length. The former gets better and the latter longer the more recent the stone was cut. Better symmetry means a more regular look to the faceting. This diamond has very good symmetry for an old cut (notice EGL says GOOD, that is pretty darn good for OECs), which means the facets are very regularly spaced around the stone. It appears to have longer lower halves than some older cuts, thus the less "chunky" under table area. My stone is like this and it creates ever-so-slightly more splintery light. I prefer this look, you may differ. Again, if you want to know more read up on OECs here on PS.

 

[evergreen]

Thanks, Dreamer. But shush - no reminding those of us in the market for a stone about the naughty behavior of diamond prices lately. Icy fingers clutch at my heart when I wonder if I could've strongarmed my boyfriend into budgeting for the ring last year, but no more about that, or the thousand or two that I see floating away into the sunset... But it doesn't hurt that I really would prefer an SI1 or 2 - not just to identify it but for it to have flaws. (Clichéd metaphor about how nobody's perfect, etc. etc.) Adam assured me that the carbon spot is much less obvious in person, and I do like to have a little thingie in there so it's not "perfect". Nothing I'd find less appealing than a D-FL.

Yeah, I was surprised at the symmetry - I have gotten used to seeing "Fair" and "Poor" in OECs and ignoring it. Good reminder about the camera shadow - I won't penalize the diamond for that, then. And your recommendation to familiarize myself better is well-taken! It's tough reading about OECs and transitional cuts, though, because while one can learn and memorize all the numbers for RBs, each OEC needs to be evaluated on its own merits. Can I be quite honest and say I'm not sure I can develop an OEC "palate" in time for getting this e-ring over and done with? So I really, truly appreciate your opinions - and your finely honed palate for these things.

Your kick-in-the-pants to get readin' did point me toward this thread, though, which is really helpful: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/technical-guidelines-for-oec-vs-ec-vs-transitional.166236/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/technical-guidelines-for-oec-vs-ec-vs-transitional.166236/[/URL] (In case anyone else reading or lurking is similarly clueless, and so I can find it later!)

I do know I like short LGFs in both RBs and OECs (as far as I can tell). The checkerboard on AVRs is very appealing. Actually, Bella44's taste in this thread -- [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-w-oec-and-transitional-diamonds.127639/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-w-oec-and-transitional-diamonds.127639/[/URL] -- is much like my own. Checkerboardy? Snowflakey? Coati's 2.94, too:

Well - at least, this is more info to give Adam tomorrow... a learning process, indeed!

 

[Sky56]

I look for that pretty checkerboard, flower, or snowflake pattern (lots of words to describe it) edge to edge brightness, lack of unpleasant 'mush' or darkness. I use my eyes and 10X loupe to examine the stone in different lighting situations and move it back and forth to view the way the facets flash. I've seen a lot of duds (fisheye, dullness) with old cuts and also a lot of gorgeous winners. Old mine cuts, OECs and transitionals are my favorite cuts besides emerald cuts.

 

[evergreen]

Well, I did order that OEC to look at!

I really like its light performance, fluorescence, and size. But I'm just not in love with it: InnaR and Dreamer were right about its smaller flashes, and tiny, spiky little sparkles do not make my heart flutter. Under Lang Antiques' diamond lights (oh, a delightful two afternoons those were!) I very reproducibly preferred stones like this one or this one - strong central checkerboard/floral patterning and big chunky watery flashes of light and fire.

While I haven't been able to reproduce the diamond lights effect at home, I still can't convince myself this diamond will ever behave like those.

Can those with more experience help me understand what it is about this OEC's faceting that causes the tiny sparkles? Is it the LGFs? I've tried to take pictures of what I see and I'd really appreciate any guidance... especially so I know how to ask for the right things and hopefully find the right stone soon!

 

[Mara]

Gosh that stone looks pretty good...but I know what you say about tiny vs broad. I definitely prefer broader as well but honestly I wouldn't toss a well cut tiny flashed stone out of bed either! Then again I don't expect to have just one stone forever lol... hanging around PS does that to you!

I was about to suggest just ordering the stone to see it in person but you already did that. I agree JBEG has some wonderful stones to look at if you want to pay retail pricing. You can also tell them what you are looking for and they can keep an eye out for you.

Many people have been happy with Adam's stones as well, you could also tell him what you are looking for and have him keep an eye out.

Oh and also one note about fluor which you may already know, but make sure if you want strong the stone doesn't look hazy at all.

 

[Dreamer_D]

That stone is really pretty!

What makes it perform the way it does.... a combination of all its angles. I can't tell you what that is though! I can tell you I have owned three OECs and each is different in how it handles light. Even the two you linked on the Lang's website have different faceting (can you see it under the table?), and the 2.18 looks a lot like a transitional to me. My newest OEC, a lovely 5.2mm one, is about as perfect as it gets. Chunky, bubbly, floral, and FIRE mania. I think it is the super high crown and good depth, along with nice short lgf and a super small table. So you can tell a little from the numbers. Look for a deeper stone and one with an even smaller table, and a higher crown and steeper pavilion for a start. But beyond that, every single old cut is unique and you can't just order up one you love by the numbers or even photos! There is an element of mystery and surprise to hunting for a great one. That is part of the fun of the cut for me. But it is also frustrating if you like immediate gratification

 

[Amys Bling]

That is a very pretty stone, but if you dont love it- then it's not for you.

 

[ariel144]

You will find a lot of Old Mine cuts and Old European cut stones here in every price range:
Check it out...pages and pages of antique cut stones. Interesting what you can find on the web.

http://www.newyorkestatejewelry.com

They are already set in rings but many have certifications. I'm sure they would help you to pick the best stone for the price.