OEC/OMB Education

[diamondseeker2006]

I just adore Boston Jeff''s new diamond, and I think it is called an Old Mine Brilliant? It is hard to keep the terms straight! But my understanding is that it is a newly cut stone, right? It is symmetrical and has the larger facets, which I love!

So there must be cutters still cutting stones in these designs. I''d be interested in a newly cut OEC. Does anyone know who cuts them today?

Also, can someone tell me what time period these stones were originally cut? The reason I am asking is that I have found a setting for which I wouldn''t mind getting a cut from the right time period (but not necessarily an old stone).

 

[widget]

I found this brief history of diamond cutting at Dutton''s Diamonds....interesting!

http://www.diamondexpert.com/articles/cut.html

According to them, OMCs appeared in the 18th century, OECs in the 19th...

widget

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Thanks, Widget! That is a good reference.

 

[boston_jeff]

Hi diamondseeker,

You are correct-- my stone is certed as an Old Mine Brilliant (like Cehra''s). It is an old-style but not an antique, and they are still being cut. Based on some of the input from the experts here (DiaGem especially), it seems that the "Old Mine Brilliant" designation from GIA is not entirely meaningful, i.e., an 8-pavillion main cushion will be certed as a "Cushion Brilliant" unless it has a few other characteristics that make it fall into the OMB category (slightly deeper, smaller table, and I believe a large culet, although maybe medium is sufficient, and that GIA is not necessarily consistent with its designations). That is to say that you should not necessarily restrict your search to OMBs, because it is very possible you could find an 8-pav main non-modern "Cushion Brilliant" that looks very similar to my stone, but for a minor reason or oversight was not called an OMB.

I''m not sure I can help you with any specfics as to WHO is cutting them, but my best advice would be to call Mark and ask him. Feel free to use my stone as an example (I''d be flattered), and ask him who he sourced it from. I''m 95% sure it was from a cutter/supplier in his building who he had a lot of familiarity with. We had a detailed discussion about the source of the type of stone that I liked, but I do not remember it too well and I don''t want to say something misleading or wrong. I am sure he would be happy to discuss it with you fully.

Sorry I cannot be too much help, but I hope that puts you in the right direction.

Jeff

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 5/27/2007 4:11:44 PM
Author: boston_jeff
Hi diamondseeker,

You are correct-- my stone is certed as an Old Mine Brilliant (like Cehra''s). It is an old-style but not an antique, and they are still being cut. Based on some of the input from the experts here (DiaGem especially), it seems that the ''Old Mine Brilliant'' designation from GIA is not entirely meaningful, i.e., an 8-pavillion main cushion will be certed as a ''Cushion Brilliant'' unless it has a few other characteristics that make it fall into the OMB category (slightly deeper, smaller table, and I believe a large culet, although maybe medium is sufficient, and that GIA is not necessarily consistent with its designations). That is to say that you should not necessarily restrict your search to OMBs, because it is very possible you could find an 8-pav main non-modern ''Cushion Brilliant'' that looks very similar to my stone, but for a minor reason or oversight was not called an OMB.

I''m not sure I can help you with any specfics as to WHO is cutting them, but my best advice would be to call Mark and ask him. Feel free to use my stone as an example (I''d be flattered), and ask him who he sourced it from. I''m 95% sure it was from a cutter/supplier in his building who he had a lot of familiarity with. We had a detailed discussion about the source of the type of stone that I liked, but I do not remember it too well and I don''t want to say something misleading or wrong. I am sure he would be happy to discuss it with you fully.

Sorry I cannot be too much help, but I hope that puts you in the right direction.

Jeff

Brilliant post Jeff - but I have to tease you a bit because she is looking for an oEc that is newly cut and she figures that if oMcs are being newly cut under the OMB title, then for sure OECs are being newly cut somewhere.... thing is, I haven''t seen any but I think whiteflash would have a HUGE business if they offered *two* distinct styles of optimized round. Wouldn''t *that* be a kick? Call them "hearts & spears" hahaha

 

[Cehrabehra]

one more thing ds - I don''t think you''ll be able to find out who is *cutting* them - the cutters are kept pretty proprietary in most situations.... bill bray and Paul S being exceptions. I think what I might do is find a stone you like, have it scanned then fiddle with the proportions in diamcalc then see if one of them would cut it for you..... OR....... I would contact mark t and see if he knows of any modern cut oec stones.

 

[mrssalvo]

I''d also try Dave Atlas for some help.

 

[boston_jeff]

Date: 5/27/2007 5:15:21 PM
Author: Cehrabehra
Brilliant post Jeff - but I have to tease you a bit because she is looking for an oEc that is newly cut and she figures that if oMcs are being newly cut under the OMB title, then for sure OECs are being newly cut somewhere.... thing is, I haven''t seen any but I think whiteflash would have a HUGE business if they offered *two* distinct styles of optimized round. Wouldn''t *that* be a kick? Call them ''hearts & spears'' hahaha

Well, clearly I got a little excited there and didn''t finish reading your post, DS (or conveniently forgot so I could ramble).

Even though you are looking for a newly-cut OEC, I still think calling Mark would be a good place to start. I''m sure DiaGem might know something, but thus far people have been unable to get him to devulge his secrets (and many have tried).

There are two threads I found that touched upon this in the past, with both RockDoc and OldMiner suggesting that new OECs are still being cut, but with Garry making the counter-point that many of these "new" OECs are marketed as antique (read: old) because they are more desirable that way. Hopefully RockDoc and Dave Atlas can chime back in here with some thoughts...

In the meantime, here are the (short) threads.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/old-european-cuts-sarin-reports-and-numbers.27585/

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/newly-cut-oecs.53949/

 

[surfgirl]

This thread reminded me that I''ve been wondering...Do we need a forum specifically for Antique/Old Cuts/etc.? It seems like there''s been a lot of posts in the last few months about these wonderful older cuts/styles and I''m wondering if it would be easier to keep all the information in one specific forum?

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 5/27/2007 5:57:40 PM
Author: surfgirl
This thread reminded me that I''ve been wondering...Do we need a forum specifically for Antique/Old Cuts/etc.? It seems like there''s been a lot of posts in the last few months about these wonderful older cuts/styles and I''m wondering if it would be easier to keep all the information in one specific forum?

As cool as that would be, I would think that it would open pandora''s box and then forums for every type of stone might need to be added (e.g., round, princess, cushion, emerald, etc.). One of the things I like about PS is that you can ask about a bunch of different things in one thread...but that''s just me!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I was hoping this thread would collect a lot of general information so that those doing a search would pull up this thread. I do think it is helpful when topics can be consolidated rather than hunting down many small threads.

Jeff, I adore your stone. And yes, I'd love to have one like it! It is the perfect cushion (and just the size, color, and clarity I'd want), with the exception of one apparently cut by Antique DiamondGem. I love Cehra's, too! But for the setting I am looking at, I think an OEC would be better (unless I came up with a more rounded square OMC like the one I am attaching). I was on the verge of setting my current diamond in the new antique setting, but I had this thought that it would be so nice to set an old cut diamond in the setting closer to the era that the setting itself was from. I'm not even sure that would be financially feasible, but it costs nothing to look into it!

Just for the fun of it, here is that other cushion I love

:

 

[boston_jeff]

That stone is magical... love it everytime I see it...

I''m happy that my stone has more of that reflected culet/kozibe effect than I thought it did...

While we are posting fun pictures, here''s a stone that I suggested to mrssalvo in another thread... just 6+ carats

 

[widget]

Date: 5/27/2007 5:57:40 PM
Author: surfgirl
It seems like there''s been a lot of posts in the last few months about these wonderful older cuts/styles...

Isn''t that the truth?? I love it that older cuts are getting more attention.

I''ve always been a fan, but I must say the treasures that have been turning up around here lately (surfgirl''s, Cehra''s, and bjeff''s in particular) have me LUSTING after them!!

OT: Jeff...Was your getaway in No Cal wonderful? I figured out where you stayed (I live not too far from there) and I suspect it must have been one of the most romantic places in the world...am I right???

widget

BTW...I have this chart in my files...small contribution to this ''educational thread'':

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 5/27/2007 8:37:30 PM
Author: boston_jeff
That stone is magical... love it everytime I see it...

I''m happy that my stone has more of that reflected culet/kozibe effect than I thought it did...

While we are posting fun pictures, here''s a stone that I suggested to mrssalvo in another thread... just 6+ carats

This site is going to kill me! Lol! I can''t think of an adequate adjective to describe this cushion or the one I posted!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Oh, yes, thanks for reminding me about surfgirl''s beautiful ring! These diagrams are great, Widget, thanks!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 5/27/2007 7:11:58 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I was hoping this thread would collect a lot of general information so that those doing a search would pull up this thread. I do think it is helpful when topics can be consolidated rather than hunting down many small threads.

Jeff, I adore your stone. And yes, I''d love to have one like it! It is the perfect cushion (and just the size, color, and clarity I''d want), with the exception of one apparently cut by Antique DiamondGem. I love Cehra''s, too! But for the setting I am looking at, I think an OEC would be better (unless I came up with a more rounded square OMC like the one I am attaching). I was on the verge of setting my current diamond in the new antique setting, but I had this thought that it would be so nice to set an old cut diamond in the setting closer to the era that the setting itself was from. I''m not even sure that would be financially feasible, but it costs nothing to look into it!

Just for the fun of it, here is that other cushion I love

:

its funny, because Jeff and my cushions have the same basic faceting but mine has rounder corners and is longer.... a bit more oval looking... if you found a square cushion with the soft corners of my stone that would get you much closer to what you seek.... however DG''s stone has 8 pav mains that are fairly even like an OEC where jeff''s (and mine) have 4 thinner corner facets. Originally I wanted the 8 even pav mains but over time grew to love the variety of the different width of mains. I think you are still attracted to the evenly sized/spaced mains and I have to say I haven''t seen any of those in a cushion that is cut recently other than DG. At first I was disappointed because you know I also fell in love with that stone of DGs you attached, but in time I grew to genuinely prefer the cut of mine - well prefer but not by a lot, I think they''re both beautiful! That maxmillion stone is longer like mine but has the evenly spaced mains and that would have been THE perfect stone providing I had several million LOL

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 5/27/2007 5:57:40 PM
Author: surfgirl
This thread reminded me that I''ve been wondering...Do we need a forum specifically for Antique/Old Cuts/etc.? It seems like there''s been a lot of posts in the last few months about these wonderful older cuts/styles and I''m wondering if it would be easier to keep all the information in one specific forum?

it would be fun/convenient to have a board for rounds, princess, old style cuts.... but so often the question is general enough or the person is deciding between different cuts, that I do think it is still in our best interests to keep it all here on RT. I do think eventually we need to have really good FAQ threads - the one we have is good but there''s so much more to add... but I don''t think we''re ready yet to set things in stone, I think the OMC/OMB/cushion brilliant (old style) has come a long way but I think every month we get closer to getting a sense of a clue. I think the modern cushions are pretty set.... and the OEC doesn''t have much about it but you can make the crown big, the table small, and the LGF short.... but I don''t think its been determined what the pav angle should be (extra deep as an old cut might be or extra shallow to follow garry''s theory on conversely corresponding angles, or should it just stay at 40.8.... these are still questions to my knowledge.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 5/27/2007 5:48:11 PM
Author: boston_jeff

There are two threads I found that touched upon this in the past, with both RockDoc and OldMiner suggesting that new OECs are still being cut, but with Garry making the counter-point that many of these 'new' OECs are marketed as antique (read: old) because they are more desirable that way.

This reminds me of a very wonderful scam I recently ran upon...

A dealer came to me with an Old European Cut diamond with coloring on the intensity of "fancy vivid slightly greenish Yellow". He said the stone came to him through one of his clients, who said the stone has passed down to him through the generations.

The customer intimated to him that he needed to make a quick sale for financial reasons, and was willing to let the diamond go at a bargain. The stone was 2 carats, and a serious amount of money, even as a "bargain". Of course, there was no cert accompanying the stone, as it was "fresh on the market".

The cutting on it was classic Old European Cut, but there were several characteristics to it which alerted me to the fact that it was a recent cut, not antique. After further testing I determined that the diamond was an HPHT synthetic fancy colored diamond.

What a beautiful scam. Most dealers would automatically assume an Old European Cut was an old stone, and therefore could not be either HPHT enhanced or an HPHT synthetic. The dealer was very appreciative that I alerted him to it's origin before he paid a large amount of money based on its intensity of color and assumption of authenticity.

So there definitely are cutters out there reproducing the Old European Cut.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 5/27/2007 9:09:41 PM
Author: widget

widget

BTW...I have this chart in my files...small contribution to this ''educational thread'':

this is a great graphic.... my stone has a MUCH shallower pavillion than this. I think it helps with brilliance which and I''m not sure what the sacrifice is. I also suspect a newly cut OEC would have a shallower pav, but this is based on nothing but guesswork LOL

 

[neatfreak]

WOW that is a crazy story Richard! Thanks for sharing!

My grandmother''s ering (which I hope to get from my mother soon since she doesn''t wear it!) is a gorgeous little OEC and I often wondered if there were modern cutters still making them. Guess so even if they''re scamming with them!

 

[surfgirl]

diamondseeker, that is a really unique stone! I've never seen one with that "iron cross" thingy in the middle. Wow. Interesting faceting for sure!

Someone linked me recently to an article, I cant find the link, where the writer spoke about the progression of cuts in the following order:

1. Old Mine Cuts: more crude faceting and cushiony shape

2. Old European Cuts: More rounded with an ice cream cone-ish crown

3. European Cuts: this one was a new category to me (closer to RBs)
4. Tolkowsky Cut: Perhaps this and the above are one & the same?

5. Modern RBs

There was no mention of "Transitional Cuts" in this particular article, which both my ering and my grandmother's ering have been appraised as, and identified as by several shops that specialize in antique diamonds. My understanding was that Transitionals were in between OECs and today's RBs. I'm wondering if the above #3&4 are more "Transitional" cuts? Or if a real Tolkowsky Cut would look chunky like an old cut, or more spikey like a RB? Any thoughts from the experts???

ETA: I found this article, when searching...it's from someone on ebay but it has some interesting tidbits..and they mention what I thought was the progression of cuts, as:
ROSE CUT (1500's-1900's)> OLD MINE CUT (Mid 1800's thru 1890's)>OLD EUROPEAN CUT (1890's-1930's)>TRANSITIONAL CUT(1930's thru 1950's) >MODERN BRILLIANT

http://reviews.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-CUT-DIAMONDS-Mine-cut-and-European-cut_W0QQugidZ10000000001651543?ssPageName=BUYGD:CAT:-1:SEARCH:5


http://www.langantiques.com/content/diamondcuts.html


http://www.woodenskate.com/jewelry/cut.html


http://www.perrysjewelry.com/servlet/the-template/diamondhistory/Page

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Richard, thanks for the warning! So if looking at antique rings, we can''t assume all the old diamonds are real. I may just set my current diamond in the settings I am looking at and then just hunt for some real OMC''s or OEC''s in rings since they seem to be less expensive than modern cut diamonds. But I''ll be sure to not buy anything that doesn''t have a return policy and have it checked out within the return period!

Can any gemologist tell if the diamonds are real?

 

[Vix]

I may have been the one linking to the European cut (vs OEC) info. Per my jeweler, I do have the former (my ring and setting are ~ 1920s, which is when the cut was popular). I think this is a reputable explanation:

European Cut - Obsolete. A diamond brilliant whose proportions were worked out mathematically for light falling perpendicularly on the crown. It was never adopted as a common form of cutting. The angle of the pavilion facets to the girdle is 38° 40’; of the bezel facets, 41° 6’. The table is 56% of the girdle diameter; crown depth, 19%; and pavilion depth, 40%. It is not to be confused with the old European cut.

http://www.diamondarticles.com/diamond-glossary.php

ps Amazing story, Richard! Glad the deception was discovered.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 5/28/2007 2:02:57 PM
Author: Vix
I may have been the one linking to the European cut (vs OEC) info. Per my jeweler, I do have the former (my ring and setting are ~ 1920s, which is when the cut was popular). I think this is a reputable explanation:

European Cut - Obsolete. A diamond brilliant whose proportions were worked out mathematically for light falling perpendicularly on the crown. It was never adopted as a common form of cutting. The angle of the pavilion facets to the girdle is 38° 40’; of the bezel facets, 41° 6’. The table is 56% of the girdle diameter; crown depth, 19%; and pavilion depth, 40%. It is not to be confused with the old European cut.

http://www.diamondarticles.com/diamond-glossary.php

ps Amazing story, Richard! Glad the deception was discovered.

I want to know why they claim to have such exacting angle numbers etc. for the "european cut" when the whole genre prior to 60/60 is hugely vague in the # dept.

 

[vintagebling]

A Vintage Stone Forum,
Great Idea!!!