OEC lovers: define 'beautiful'

[dianabarbara]

It's now been a long time I have been searching for a stone. And I have stopped wondering how comes many ladies on this forum seem to shift from modern cuts to antique stones. Luckily, it's been a relatively quick process for me

After crazy days of shopping in Antwerp, Amsterdam, and Milano, I know that I prefer round over cushiony, that I don't mind a bit of warmth, and that I like plenty of fire. But I also want to have a lot of brilliance.

Many times I read on this forum that certain OEC have beautiful patterns, and still it's hard for me to understand whether 'beauty' here can be defined in an objective way or if it is totally subjective. So I am a bit afraid to take the plunge. I have seen some tables on this website defining the parameters of beauty for old cuts, but I have not yet found a post defining the beauty of an OEC when crown and pavilion angles are not available data.

I attach the pictures of three stones that look beautiful to me. Please, comment and share your thoughts on these.
They all range between 12 and 16K (which is stretched but feasible, if there is a tad of wiggle room), they are all warmer color (say, J - in paper - to R), and they are all described as OEC (or tranny?).

So I am curious to learn: Which one would you pick and why?

 

[dianabarbara]

other two candidates

 

[chrono]

Probably the first one, for the mosaic pattern and cut.
The second looks too modern.
The third shows some darkness in the middle but the picture is too tiny to make out the facet pattern in detail.

 

[GemFever]

For me personally, a beautiful OEC has:

- nice flower pattern in the middle
- fairly big and well defined "petals" around the flower (the parts that would be hearts in an H&A stone)
- well proportioned, medium-large culet and neat but visible kozibe
- small table & high crown

I'll attach a pic of an OEC that GOG had, it's sold now.

Out of the pics you posted, two of them are too small to see detail, but I think I prefer the second one, even though it looks dark in the center. But just for the facet pattern, that's probably the one.

Of course, there are a bunch of variations and personal tastes.

 

[dianabarbara]

thank you, Chrono and Gemfever

I was wondering myself whether mosaic vs flowery pattern would come up as a favorite, so I am curious to hear what PSers think about this.
a better picture of the diamond portrayed in the small pics above.

since it was brought up: aside of the appeal of its looks, does the kozibe effect has an impact on the brilliance of a stone?

one thing I have noticed by looking stones with a loupe is that with some antique cuts you can see through in some areas. I had the impression that by tilting the stone, these areas often seem to get larger as compared with when you examine the diamond exactly from the top. Does this reflect the amount of leakage of the stone?

 

[athenaworth]

This is the most beautiful OEC I've ever seen (actually I think it's a tranny). To me it's the triangle facets that seem to have no end

 

[GemFever]

Not sure about tilt windowing vs. leakage in terms of performance. I think most stones have some kind of tilt windowing. Probably best to consider it on a case-by-case basis.

As for the kozibe... my guess is that it depends on how big the culet is and how much kozibe there is. The culet is an extra facet, it reflects light at certain angles. I think in OMCs, there can be light play through the kozibe, the reflections light up. In OECs though, the culet is smaller and the kozibe more compact, so I think not as much impact (of course the reflections still happen, they're just not as big). I'll attach a photo to show what I mean.

I think I may see some "gaps" in between the center facets on the bigger pic you posted. I'll attach a pic of one of my earrings to illustrate the gaps, because they are very visible on the pic (top right hand corner especially). I think it's OK in OMCs, but I wouldn't want those gaps in an expensive OEC.

 

[two_little_birds]

It's a very personal thing, and you need to following your heart and pick a stone that "speaks to you" IMO.

I love OEC's with a well defined flower patern, chunky facets, high crown and smaller cutlet. I'm not a huge fan of the kozibe effect per say, but each stone is different.

Remember, all these stones were cut by hand and are of an era that didn't have modern tools. For me that's part of the beauty of an antique stone. I looked at GOG August Vintage Rounds for a long time and came very close to pulling the trigger on one, but in the end it was too perfect (I know that may sound odd for some).

Good luck on your journey, don't give up!

 

[Mayk]

In the words of a wise woman... Grace.. She said "you will know when you see it if its for you". I think she's right..

 

[dianabarbara]

Athenaworth, I really like the idea of nice crisp facets too, and the color of that stone is just lovely!!

Gemfever, I understand what you mean with the culet and kozibe. OMCs have a character on their own  I have seen some OECs with wonderful larger culets, and some kozibe, but rarely as pronounced as in OMCs, although this could also be because of my limited sample. And the gaps: thank you for pointing this out. I did not notice it too much, but now I see what you mean and I am not sure whether I would like it in an engagement ring… mmh…

Two little birds.. I also thought about GOG August vintage rounds. Love the idea, but I am yet leaning towards an old stone for the unique character and the lighter price tag. Who knows, maybe if I do not settle on anything else I will resort to that, but I admit I’d personally feel a bit sad about it..

 

[dianabarbara]

aah, Mayk, I think you are so right on this one.

I have tried on many rings in these last days, and although I have liked many, I still have to fall in love with one. I have your 1.8 M as a benchmark, so it won't be easy at all to settle

the boyfriend has given me the option to source a bit anywhere in Europe, and in the US *only* under the condition to have a designer he likes manufacturing the ring, which would explain the wait until I fly to the US for a conference (July). But he's already been talking to his mum and plans to talk to my dad in April, so he's getting very impatient..

 

[dianabarbara]

further material for comparison.
This stone has been suggested in other posts on this board and meets some of the criteria highlighted above, but still no kozibe, and the culet is quite small!

 

[JulieN]

sometimes you can't see kozibe from the front, but if you tilt it, you will. I find small hamounts of kozibe interesting, but if coupled with a large culet I think the stone has herpes or some other warty, viral disease that affects the skin.

windows and leakage are the same, it is normal that it gets bigger when you tilt it...but we usually try to minimize that.

 

[chrono]

This stone has been suggested in other posts on this board and meets some of the criteria highlighted above, but still no kozibe, and the culet is quite small!

Sweet!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Define beauty in a woman or man? The question is equally difficult to pin down. There are some universals, but many individual variations as well.

I think there are some things I look for in any diamond: I do not want to see over darness under the table, hazy areas indicative or leakage or girdle reflection, and I do not like lazy scintillation and lack of life.

Once those are met, the flavour is personal preference. Short of longer lower halves? Random patterning or precice optical symmetry? Large or smaller table? Its all up to the viewer to decide what they like.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Kozibe is a sign of coplimentary angles between the crown and pavilion. It is a sign of a well cut stone. Whether you can see it in person depends on the size of the diamond and culet. But a big culet in no way guarantees kozibe!

 

[dianabarbara]

Interesting information, Dreamer. The observation regarding the darkness under the table already eliminates the stone with the gaps.
I understand it is highly subjective, and this is part of the reason why it is interesting to ask such a question and learn from each other's reactions.

I had no clue the kozibe was per se a sign of high quality cut

How would you comment on the other stones?

Or what would you personally go for if you were in the market for a gorgeous old cut stone around 2 - 2.5 carats, nevermind a tad of warmth?

 

[ruby59]

Dreamer, could you comment on the last diamond. That is the one I posted and have been looking at for quite a while. Omly thing that stopped me was I hought it looked much warmer from the sides to be a J. What do you think of the faceting?

 

[dianabarbara]

ps - DreamerD, the first picture in the second post reminds me a bit of your beautiful stone!
It is much lower color for sure, however, but you can see the arrows there too!!

 

[dianabarbara]

ruby, a pic of the side view

it does look quite warm.
Personally, I would not mind it, but it could also depend on whether you would want to change the setting and how exposed the side would be.

 

[ruby59]

Thanks. When I see color described that much off, I wonder whether the other statistics (size, clarity, etc) are not accurate as well.

And again, thanks for confirming color. I am still learning too, on the journey to find my holy grail.

 

[dianabarbara]

Of course!! I am learning too and this community is just great for that best of luck in your search, ruby!!

 

[dianabarbara]

what worries me a bit in this last stone is that it has a large table, which I think might be associated with less fire.
Would this be generally true?

 

[madelise]

I don't prefer old cuts that have alternating small and big facets, so I don't prefer the older-older types, like the between OMC-OEC types (like the ones GemFever posted). I also don't like HUGE culets, though the GIA graded "large" is still beautiful to me. I don't like the later transitionals that look like modern cuts with culets.. I'm not a fan of the ones with almost-arrows looking facets. If they're super fat? Sure. If they're too defined, like some I've seen, pass.

 

[pandabee]

I don't prefer old cuts that have alternating small and big facets, so I don't prefer the older-older types, like the between OMC-OEC types (like the ones GemFever posted). I also don't like HUGE culets, though the GIA graded "large" is still beautiful to me. I don't like the later transitionals that look like modern cuts with culets.. I'm not a fan of the ones with almost-arrows looking facets. If they're super fat? Sure. If they're too defined, like some I've seen, pass.

This is my opinion as well...wasn't sure how to describe it as I'm still a baby at this OEC business but I do prefer the more symmetrical faceting. I like the floral patterns in theory (like the AVR faceting) but I'm actually drawn more to the transitional cuts (leaning toward OEC than modern) like many of the ones on JbEG. idk, I'm pretty all over the place too but I tend to stay away from the more "wonky" even though that is what appeals to most people about the old cuts because you know they were cut by hand.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Diana from the ones you posted my personal preference, which it not at all objective, is for the first one in each of your first two posts. The very first one looks like mine and is my favourite type of cut (photo called 96.png). The first photo in the second set is more transitional than my own stone, with a larger table and longer lower halves, but I recognize it and adore adore that diamond (photo called pic3.png). The mount is phenomenal as well which adds a lot of value -- I think its single stone. And I love the color.

You seem to favour later styles from your photos and a high level of optical symmetry.

Ruby that photo shows a fair bit of obstruction. I can't tell if its the sellers way of taking pictures or not, all their stones look like that. But its one worth consideration. I find the price high for where its being sold by a good margin.

 

[Mayk]

aah, Mayk, I think you are so right on this one.

I have tried on many rings in these last days, and although I have liked many, I still have to fall in love with one. I have your 1.8 M as a benchmark, so it won't be easy at all to settle

the boyfriend has given me the option to source a bit anywhere in Europe, and in the US *only* under the condition to have a designer he likes manufacturing the ring, which would explain the wait until I fly to the US for a conference (July). But he's already been talking to his mum and plans to talk to my dad in April, so he's getting very impatient..

You will find the one... some that come to mind that just blow me away... and very different from mine when I went looking for a Tranny... is a few of the OEC's on here that I just love

Forte Kitty's, Just Ginger's and Demelza's are my top favorites for OEC with warmth and a nice pattern.. I think Demelza's is probably the least warm of the three.. but very pretty for pattern and HUGE...

I stare at the JbEG site and look at all the diamonds and I can say for sure there are stones that take my breath away.. and then some that don't do much for me.. keep looking...

 

[chrono]

My sweet spot is the early transitional stones where they still have a high crown and small table but not too deep so it doesn't face up so small. It has decently good cutting or at least very nice symmetry.

 

[Dreamer_D]

further material for comparison.
This stone has been suggested in other posts on this board and meets some of the criteria highlighted above, but still no kozibe, and the culet is quite small!

It may show kozibe on tilt. These diamonds with shallower crowns don't show kozibe face on. I attached two pics of my diamond to show what I am talking about. No kozibe face on, but in tilt you see it. The crown and pavilion are complientary in my diamond. My stone is an early ideal cut, and similar in style to many you have posted.

No Kozibe:



Kozibe (and fire):



ETA: When its smaller the kozibe is hard to see in that last one. Here is another.


One more ETA for those who are not familiar with kozibe, I cropped and circled in red the places where you can see kozibe in the pictures I posted. In real life, you cannot see the effect with the naked eye in my stone. But with classic OECs I find you can see it in stones over about 6mm.

 

[pandabee]

My sweet spot is the early transitional stones where they still have a high crown and small table but not too deep so it doesn't face up so small. It has decently good cutting or at least very nice symmetry.

I'm imagining this in my head and it sounds perfect!!

Dreamer those shots get me everytime... love the fire shot with the kozibe peeking out!