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OEC Ideal Cut?

Karl_K

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There is nothing at all wrong with wanting to learn the science.

But
1. Taking rulers to printouts ain’t “science”,
2. There is actually a lot wrong with basing a purchase primarily on a half-baked comprehension of the science, which is all OP boasts right now, and
3. There is a lot more wrong with encouraging others to do the same.

#2, and especially #3, are what we long-time consumers are objecting to in this thread. #1 is just entertaining as a spectacular display of inflated ego.
I agree.
Steering towards more grounded in science discussion is one way to help. Its not working that well.

@prs some of the best prosomers in the diamond world are trying to help. I highly respect them.
They posted master class level info above
 

ForteKitty

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Pot... I’d like to introduce you to Kettle...
I know right? He's saying I don't know how to use a ruler, can't understand preschool math, and calling my posts mean spirited, but I've been overly nice, which he doesn't deserve. My god, rulers... lol. we use c-a-l-i-p-e-r-s for diamonds and see in 3D. Didn't think I need to actually point the second part out, but apparently it was necessary?
 
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Garry H (Cut Nut)

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There is nothing at all wrong with wanting to learn the science.

But
1. Taking rulers to printouts ain’t “science”,
2. There is actually a lot wrong with basing a purchase primarily on a half-baked comprehension of the science, which is all OP boasts right now, and
3. There is a lot more wrong with encouraging others to do the same.

#2, and especially #3, are what we long-time consumers are objecting to in this thread. #1 is just entertaining as a spectacular display of inflated ego.
Hi Yssie,
I have just started reading this again - can you decode and explain what you mean please?
 

yssie

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Hi Yssie,
I have just started reading this again - can you decode and explain what you mean please?
The quickest way to explain what I'm referencing is probably to just point to all of the content in ForteKitty's posts throughout this thread, culminating in her summary on Page 10.


That last diamond is also dug out - the lower girdle facets are steeper than normal on an already overly deep diamond - but it could have been recut with pavilion only with very small weight loss.
Yes, this is visible in the image. I recall some discussion of this in another older thread, but I'm not finding it right now. I'll take another look tomorrow and tag you in that thread if I locate it.
Let's throw brillianteering onto the list of things that basic trig doesn't consider - somewhere behind asymmetry and subtend angle and stereo vision and tertiary refraction :))
 

ForteKitty

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Maybe a circuit breaker could help.
What cut would GIA call this diamond?
What do Yo'all think of it?
1600066801787.png
Round Brilliant. Doesn't meet all 3 required criteria for Circular Brilliant and it def doesn't meet 3 out of 4 required criteria for European cut. But it's SO CUTE and I would adopt it in an instant! :kiss2: (i keep looking at the video, it's mesmerizing)
 

yssie

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Pretty, but if I'm paying top retail dollar I wouldn't choose it for myself.
In-person you'd see more of the "mush" under the edges of the table looking at it with two eyes - at slighter tilt than this video shows.
I'd want to bezel it to define the outline since edges aren't the brightest.
I'm personally not a huge fan of tiny culet kozibe.
 
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yssie

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And there you have it - two differing opinions :lol: One from someone who happens to prefer genuine antiques and one from someone who prefers new precision cuts patterned in "ye olde style" :bigsmile:
 

ForteKitty

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And there you have it - two differing opinions :lol: One from someone who happens to prefer genuine antiques and one from someone who prefers new precision cuts patterned in "ye olde style" :bigsmile:
If I could only have one diamond, this wouldn't be it. I'd still stick with mine, lol. But you know me and I want one of every flavor! (also wouldn't be paying full retail) This would fit well in a bezel pendant, in brushed rose gold.
 

ForteKitty

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Pretty, but if I'm paying top retail dollar I wouldn't choose it for myself.
In-person you'd see more of the "mush" under the edges of the table looking at it with two eyes - at slighter tilt than this video shows.
I'd want to bezel it to define the outline since edges aren't the brightest.
I'm personally not a huge fan of tiny culet kozibe.
Duh, I didn't even notice additional videos or looked at any of the other images. :doh:Just saw the darkfield video (which tilts more) and it's def mushy under the table edge, good catch! If the table is around 50%, the tilt mush should go away and it'll still retain the super chunky facets, right?
 

yssie

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I agree a shallower crown would have done a lot for this stone
The digging would hurt edge brightness less
The crown/table joint would be less pokey and maybe a tad less likely to chip when it's whacked (cause it's gonna get whacked)
The bezel height - whatever it is - would block less of the near-girdle crown faceting, so more light would be able to hit those facets, which also means a bit less (and less strongly coloured) girdle reflection mush under the table
Pronging this thing with anything but 4 or 8 symmetric prongs on the kites is a loose stone waiting to happen so... A shallower crown gives us a few more options for setting too
The tiny culet kozibe still bugs me :lol:
 
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Polabowla

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So im wondering why the numbers & not the eyes are more important for any diamond?
Does it matter if the asset image or numbers are not so ideal if the person loves the stone?
So many threads ask posters for so many numbers then say these numbers are not ideal & i wonder why seeing it & loving it matters less.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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yssie,
SO LET ME TRY TO UNDERSTAND - THERE IS DIGGING ON A COUPLE OF FACETS AND IT IS RATED SMALL ON CROWN AND NEGLIGIBLE ON PAV.
WOULD YOU FIND AN OLD STONE WITH LESS?
The digging would hurt edge brightness less
The crown/table joint would be less pokey and maybe a tad less likely to chip when it's whacked (cause it's gonna get whacked)
SERIOUSLY - A DIAMOND WITH A THICK TO MEDIUM OR MAYBE SLIGHTLY THICK AND A STEEP CROWN IS EVER GOING TO BREAK???
PAPER SCISSORS ROCK - THIS IS A ROCK THAT COULD SMASH THE DAYLIGHTS OUT OF A MODERN SUPA DOOPA TOLKOWSKY

I CAN START TO SEE WHY THIS THREAD IS ON THE ANGRY SIDE.
 

yssie

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Garry, I’m going to need a 0.1degree variance on girdle max/min - with 0.0degree uncertainty quantification - that’s the only way it’ll match my printouts, see?

:devil:

On a more serious note for lurkers - I wasn’t very clear above, so Garry misread: Crown/table joints are actually the only parts of a diamond that I’ve ever chipped. Never the girdle. It’s not something to choose or dismiss a stone by, in a vacuum, any more than HCA is something to exclusively select or discard a stone by, but it’s an observation that I can make.

The thing that sometimes gets lost in academic discussions about stones... Most people aren’t storing diamonds in drawers. They’re setting them and wearing them. And practicality demands considerations above and beyond what the stone itself has to offer. The very steep crown plus the fact that it’s a sizable stone (with commensurately sizable facets) means that the upper girdle meets will be pronounced. This means that securing prongs on top of those joints will be much more difficult than on a smaller or lower-crowned stone - the stone will want to turn in its mount such that the prongs rest on the flat, low kite facets. So you could bezel this stone. You could it put into eight symmetric prongs with prongs covering the arrowtips. You could put it into four symmetric prongs with prongs covering the arrowtips. It might be fine in six prongs, but having counted on opposing pressures of prongs on complementary UGFs should keep stone from rotating and then dealing with said stone coming loose much too frequently, I wouldn’t recommend it. Certainly you should NOT put this stone into four or eight prongs with “arrows showing”. Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the stone itself - it’s an artifact of the reality of wearing it.

Mush under the table. Leon Mege and David Friedlander will finish the interior of a bezel or a multitude of prongseats to mirror polish before setting a stone. Some other vendors will as well. Some vendors will even rhodium plate interiors of mounts. Most vendors will not. If a surface of the stone is touching some other material (not air), that surface is no longer contributing to total internal reflection of incident light - it’s just going to transmit whatever’s on the other side. If what is on the other side is dull, dark, or strongly coloured, your girdle reflection under the table is going to be duller, darker, and more strongly coloured mush. Fortunately this stone already has a faceted girdle. Again, nothing to do with the stone itself, it’s an artifact of the reality of wearing it. How much does it matter? Well - for me, Leon told me that single cuts for a piece I’m working with him on would be a waste of money because the difference would be absolutely negligible and the price difference would be stark, and I insisted on them anyway because I can see the slight difference and it does matter to me. That’s the sort of person I am with regard to details. Others might well answer differently.

The whole point of this thread is that different flavours are available to suit varying preferences. Trying to pin one set of proportions or aesthetics into a box called “best” by numbers is never going to succeed. Me not caring for this stone doesn’t make it a bad choice for someone else. @jaaron’s example of human attractiveness was the perfect analogy.

But then, we all know that.
 
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Garry H (Cut Nut)

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The very steep crown plus the fact that it’s a sizable stone (with commensurately sizable facets) means that the upper girdle meets will be pronounced. This means that securing prongs on top of those joints will be much more difficult than on a smaller or lower-crowned stone - the stone will want to turn in its mount such that the prongs rest on the flat, low kite facets.
Damm - thats why every coloured gem I set, (about 5 million'in 45 years) all fell out or twisted in the setting!
 

LLJsmom

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Garry, I’m going to need a 0.1degree variance on girdle max/min - with 0.0degree uncertainty quantification - that’s the only way it’ll match my printouts, see?

:devil:

On a more serious note for lurkers - I wasn’t very clear above, so Garry misread: Crown/table joints are actually the only parts of a diamond that I’ve ever chipped. Never the girdle. It’s not something to choose or dismiss a stone by, in a vacuum, any more than HCA is something to exclusively select or discard a stone by, but it’s an observation that I can make.

The thing that sometimes gets lost in academic discussions about stones... Most people aren’t storing diamonds in drawers. They’re setting them and wearing them. And practicality demands considerations above and beyond what the stone itself has to offer. The very steep crown plus the fact that it’s a sizable stone (with commensurately sizable facets) means that the upper girdle meets will be pronounced. This means that securing prongs on top of those joints will be much more difficult than on a smaller or lower-crowned stone - the stone will want to turn in its mount such that the prongs rest on the flat, low kite facets. So you could bezel this stone. You could it put into eight symmetric prongs with prongs covering the arrowtips. You could put it into four symmetric prongs with prongs covering the arrowtips. It might be fine in six prongs, but having counted on opposing pressures of prongs on complementary UGFs should keep stone from rotating and then dealing with said stone coming loose much too frequently, I wouldn’t recommend it. Certainly you should NOT put this stone into four or eight prongs with “arrows showing”. Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the stone itself - it’s an artifact of the reality of wearing it.

Mush under the table. Leon Mege and David Friedlander will finish the interior of a bezel or a multitude of prongseats to mirror polish before setting a stone. Some other vendors will as well. Some vendors will even rhodium plate interiors of mounts. Most vendors will not. If a surface of the stone is touching some other material (not air), that surface is no longer contributing to total internal reflection of incident light - it’s just going to transmit whatever’s on the other side. If what is on the other side is dull, dark, or strongly coloured, your girdle reflection under the table is going to be duller, darker, and more strongly coloured mush. Fortunately this stone already has a faceted girdle. Again, nothing to do with the stone itself, it’s an artifact of the reality of wearing it. How much does it matter? Well - for me, Leon told me that single cuts for a piece I’m working with him on would be a waste of money because the difference would be absolutely negligible and the price difference would be stark, and I insisted on them anyway because I can see the slight difference and it does matter to me. That’s the sort of person I am with regard to details. Others might well answer differently.

The whole point of this thread is that different flavours are available to suit varying preferences. Trying to pin one set of proportions or aesthetics into a box called “best” by numbers is never going to succeed. Me not caring for this stone doesn’t make it a bad choice for someone else. @jaaron’s example of human attractiveness was the perfect analogy.

But then, we all know that.
Mush under the table. Leon Mege and David Friedlander will finish the interior of a bezel or a multitude of prongseats to mirror polish before setting a stone. Some other vendors will as well. Some vendors will even rhodium plate interiors of mounts. Most vendors will not. If a surface of the stone is touching some other material (not air), that surface is no longer contributing to total internal reflection of incident light - it’s just going to transmit whatever’s on the other side. If what is on the other side is dull, dark, or strongly coloured, your girdle reflection under the table is going to be duller, darker, and more strongly coloured mush

Totally agree. This so annoys me about settings!

@yssie I admit much of this is too technical for me, but I appreciate what you are saying and why you are saying it. When you explain it in layman's terms, even I can understand. I wish there were more threads about how the technical details of metal work translate and affects the beauty and functionality of jewelry pieces. And like this thread, maybe not for everyone, some would benefit greatly.
 

yssie

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Damm - thats why every coloured gem I set, (about 5 million'in 45 years) all fell out or twisted in the setting!
I’ve never worked the bench. That’s why when world class experts like Victor Canera, Leon Mege, Leon at Whiteflash, Erika Winters, Mike Robinson... advised caution setting my own large high-crowned RB with eight prongs on the upper girdle facet flats (attempting to cover an inclusion), I paid attention.

The stone has now been secure in a nine-prong mount for four years.
 
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Garry H (Cut Nut)

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I agree with you wise Old Cut Wizards that a smaller table would be an aset to this diamond I posted from CutWise.com
But what you ar saying about edge leakage is total nonsense.
I modelled the proportions in DiamCalc and almost all those rays aimed at the edges of the stone are exiting at 40 to 45 degrees. Even where the cutter dug out the crown facets (chased out an inclusion?) the return is excellent.
So dear experts - please don't get carried away with your own level of expertise.
OR
I may need to haunt these old cut threads and keep you'all honest hahahaha
 

yssie

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I agree with you wise Old Cut Wizards that a smaller table would be an aset to this diamond I posted from CutWise.com
But what you ar saying about edge leakage is total nonsense.
I modelled the proportions in DiamCalc and almost all those rays aimed at the edges of the stone are exiting at 40 to 45 degrees. Even where the cutter dug out the crown facets (chased out an inclusion?) the return is excellent.
So dear experts - please don't get carried away with your own level of expertise.
OR
I may need to haunt these old cut threads and keep you'all honest hahahaha
So, Garry Of Optimal Expertise, pray tell us what colour this output will show up as in an ASET, and what that colour signifies?
And please also tell us what happens when you've got a bezel of ${X} height looming over and under edges of the stone?
(Spoiler for when you catch up: I already addressed both points a few posts ago).

I don't have nearly the expertise in stone minutia that you do. I don't claim to. But I've got both common sense and reading comprehension - both of which are in shockingly short supply in this thread :rolleyes:

Feel free to link any of my posts in thread wherever and whenever you like: I stand by every single thing I say on PS. (And I can probably take photos and/or video to support every single thing I say on RT). I really wouldn't advise beginning an "old damning threads" discussion with me. If you're truly tempted I suggest doing a few PS searches, and perhaps you'll take note that I politely restrained myself in my earlier response.
 
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Garry H (Cut Nut)

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So, Garry Of Optimal Expertise, pray tell us what colour this output will show up as in an ASET, and what that colour signifies?
And please also tell us what happens when you've got a bezel of ${X} height looming over and under edges of the stone?
(Spoiler for when you catch up: I already addressed both points a few posts ago).

I don't have nearly the expertise in stone minutia that you do. I don't claim to. But I've got both common sense and reading comprehension - both of which are in shockingly short supply in this thread :rolleyes:

Feel free to link any of my posts in thread wherever and whenever you like: I stand by every single thing I say on PS. I really wouldn't advise beginning an "old damning threads" discussion with me, though. If you're truly tempted, I suggest doing a few PS searches, and perhaps you'll take note that I politely restrained myself in my earlier response.
There are a few small bits of white leakage. Some red and mostly green.
The green as I wrote is returning around 40-45 degrees - so about the same as the center of a Tolkowsky to 40.6 degree pavilion RBC.
I do not care for setting a diamond like that in a bezel and all the nonsense about it turning etc. Compared to the average sapphire its a breeze to set.
Chance of chipping - I see about 10 times more girdle chips than crown table chips in old cuts.
Registered valuer appraiser in Australia number 61 - I have seen more worn diamonds in a year than many of you in your lifetime.
 

yssie

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There are a few small bits of white leakage. Some red and mostly green.
The green as I wrote is returning around 40-45 degrees - so about the same as the center of a Tolkowsky to 40.6 degree pavilion RBC.
I do not care for setting a diamond like that in a bezel and all the nonsense about it turning etc. Compared to the average sapphire its a breeze to set.
Chance of chipping - I see about 10 times more girdle chips than crown table chips in old cuts.
Registered valuer appraiser in Australia number 61 - I have seen more worn diamonds in a year than many of you in your lifetime.
**edited for language by moderator**

Call my opinion nonsense if you like, but my explanation of the "nonsense about turning" comes not from me, but from world-class benches.

This is your OEC's ASET compared to a WF ACA. I just picked one at random. Edge brightness - so which one wins face-up? How about through a range of normal viewing tilts?
Let me clear one thing up up-front - yes, these sorts of differences, and the mushiness under the edges of the table at tilt, will absolutely be visible IRL. I saw it in your simulation and I would see it IRL. They're not dramatic. It's a beautiful stone. I wouldn't buy it at full retail. I buy precision cut stones for a reason.
Is it "worth obsessing over"? What is an isn't worth mentioning? What does and doesn't merit having a personal preferences about? Where does "getting carried away" start? How many of those questions do you, Garry Holloway, get to answer for the rest of us?

1600214370549.png

My point about the effect of a bezel - which you didn't bother to address, I note - stands, objectively, whether or not you consider it worth considering.

I'm sure you do see more stones than I will in my lifetime. **edited**

OMG this thread is something else.
 
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prs

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There are a few small bits of white leakage. Some red and mostly green.
The green as I wrote is returning around 40-45 degrees - so about the same as the center of a Tolkowsky to 40.6 degree pavilion RBC.
I do not care for setting a diamond like that in a bezel and all the nonsense about it turning etc. Compared to the average sapphire its a breeze to set.
Chance of chipping - I see about 10 times more girdle chips than crown table chips in old cuts.
Registered valuer appraiser in Australia number 61 - I have seen more worn diamonds in a year than many of you in your lifetime.
Garry, I didn't realize I was stepping into a quagmire when I started this thread. I appreciate you trying to act as peacemaker, but please take my advice and stay out of it, that's what I intend to do. Life is just too short for this nonsense!
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Garry, I didn't realize I was stepping into a quagmire when I started this thread. I appreciate you trying to act as peacemaker, but please take my advice and stay out of it, that's what I intend to do. Life is just too short for this nonsense!
OK, I am running away. Thx prs
 

Karl_K

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ouch .. wow....
Im going to wade in.
None of us know everything there is to know about diamonds and combined all together we do not know everything there is to know. Things change with time also as we learn more.
But by listening to each other and treating each other with respect even when we disagree we can all learn.
 

yssie

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You’re right. White flag time. Apologies to everyone for my part in provoking and contributing unnecessarily.

@Garry H (Cut Nut) - if we were together in-person I would tell you to come get a drink with me so we could continue arguing like civilized people :bigsmile:

I’ve reported my last post and asked the mods to edit it.

One day when we can travel again I’ll pull this thread up and we’ll do just that ::) @Karl_K, and maybe that’s the day I’ll finally meet you!
 
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Garry H (Cut Nut)

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You’re right. White flag time. Apologies to everyone for my part in provoking and contributing unnecessarily.

@Garry H (Cut Nut) - if we were together in-person I would tell you to come get a drink with me so we could continue arguing like civilized people :bigsmile:

I’ve reported my last post and asked the mods to edit it.

One day when we can travel again I’ll pull this thread up and we’ll do just that ::) @Karl_K, and maybe that’s the day I’ll finally meet you!
Thanks Yssie, yup - we have agreed more often then not on RBCs and other issues.
- I like Belgian monk beers
 
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