Newbie with questions about engagement rings.

[engageme]

Hi everyone. I am a “newbie” to the site and am just starting my search for the perfect Diamond Engagement Ring; or at least at perfect as I can afford. I have done a lot of research on this and other sites and am about 90% sure the direction to go. However, I still have some questions that I trust some of you can assist me with. This is what I hope to purchase and present her with:

Style: Round Brilliant
Carat: .70 ish to .80 ish (somewhere around the ¾ carat size)
Been looking at the .70 size
Cut: Ideal/Brilliant
I am pretty sure that I want the Cut to be the best it can be.
Color: D, E or F.
May be willing to go to G or H (see questions below)
Clarity: VVS1 or VVS2
Don’t want to go lower and can’t afford to go higher.
Depth %: Not sure (see questions below)
Table %: Not sure (see questions below)
Symmetry: Ideal, Excellent. Also seen it called “0”
Polish: Ideal, Excellent. Also seen it called “0”
Girdle: Not sure (see questions below)
Culet: Not sure (see questions below)
Fluorescence: Faint or None (see questions below)
Price: What I have seen will put a .70 around the $4,200 range and the .80 above the $5,000 range. Understandably, going for a lower Color and/or Clarity will allow me to get a larger Carat for the same money. I want to keep the price at or as near $4,000 as I can as the setting will tack on another $700 to $1000.. Follow this link to a setting that she and I like. I don’t know if I would buy this exact setting but the style is what I am looking for.

http://www.bluenile.com/product_details.asp?oid=327&filter_id=1

Other Information: She knows that I will be proposing so I know what she likes/dislikes. 1. Gold Ring with Platinum Setting; 2. She is not “showy” so she would rather have quality instead of quantity; I feel the same. 3. She is 5ft 7 with slender fingers so the diamond size of .70 to .80 is a good size for her. 4. She has a very active job (Activities Director for an Adult Retirement Community) and I don’t want to go to large in size but still want it to be noticed.

What I am looking for in a Diamond. Based off of my research so far:
1. A Diamond with “Hearts and Arrows”
2. An AGS Triple-Zero certification.
3. I am purchasing this for the simple reason of engagement. However, 40 years from now I want it to appreciate in value. So I am also getting it for the value that a Diamond has and want the best one I can afford knowing that it will have a great value in 40 years. (See my Question 4 pertaining to quality.)




Questions:
1. Should I be looking for a Diamond with an IGS or an AGS certification? I understand that this no way this tells me if the Diamond is any good, just that it has certain characteristics. The AGS seem to have more information on them then the IGS. Why?

2. Depth and Table %: I see numbers that really mean nothing to me here. Is there some chart that one can look at that shows them that if the Depth % is 61.0% the table should be 57%. Or is there a mathematical thing to it?

3. Culet: I understand that a diamond cutter may “round off” the Culet slightly to protect if from being chipped. Is there an ideal for this or is it subjective? In other words do I really need to be concerned?

4. When the Diamond is placed in the setting will it be apparent that it’s a higher quality Diamond. In other words, does it makes sense to get a D, E or F color diamond if it’s going to be in a setting? Otherwise, I could have gotten a G or H and been just as happy with it’s “sparkle”? So, does it make sense to get a D, E or F color .70 diamond for a ring? Also, what about the Clarity of the Diamond of this size in a setting? Do I really need to look for VVS1 or VVS2. Again, as I stated I want this for the value not just the “love”. The reason for this question is I have noticed a lot of posts talking about purchasing a diamond that is J, SI1 or SI2? Would this be a better purchase for an engagement ring? Maybe what I am looking for would be better as earrings?

5. What setting would be better for a diamond this size; 4 or 6 points? I understand that the 6 point gives me the safety and security of knowing should one “finger” break off the setting the diamond will still stay in the setting. However, I like to know that if I am going to put out $4000 for the Diamond I would like to see as much of it as possible. Another question would be is the .70 large enough to “show” most of it thru the setting in a 6 point or will the 6 point “cover” up much of the diamond making it appear smaller then it is? I am thinking that I like the 4 point setting; hay….that is why we have insurance…right?

6. Fluorescence: I see that even the best Diamonds may have a blue fluorescence and wonder does the amount of it, or lack of it, really matter. Should I be concerned? I am assuming that NONE or Faint would be best. True??? False???

7. Setting: The setting that I have a link to above is 3.3 mm thick. Knowing that she is an average size lady with slender fingers, should I be looking for a setting that is thiner? I want something to be strong and last because of her daily activity, however I also don’t want it to be so “big” on her finger that it gets in the way. Also, assuming that the setting should be 3.3 mm thick, how much over the edge will the dial “hang” I think that if I get a .70 to .80 diamond and a 3.3mm thick setting it will appear larger then say a 4mm thick setting. What do you think?

8. Book: Can anyone recommend a good book to purchase for more information? Maybe one that talks in detail about Depth/Table %’s?

9. On-Line: I am pretty sure that I will purchase the diamond online. Some sites sell the diamonds and settings; others just the diamond. What would be your personal choice if you were purchasing a diamond for the first time? I kind of like the idea of purchasing the diamond and setting all at one place.

Well I want to thank everyone in advance for any information you can give me. I understand that most of you purchase diamonds on a regular basis and am hoping that your knowledge will assist me with my purchase.

Joseph

 

[ame]

My stone is a .86 and I wear it on a 2mm ring. I had it with a 3mm at first and it made it seem so little by comparison.

I know you want quality but you probably should go down to the VS range. You can go a little bigger and you also probably won't be able to tell a difference at all unless you are really sensitive, also having some inclusions that you can find after searching for them will make identifying your diamond easier if you take it somewhere for a cleaning or for the setting to be checked. I checked out VVS, VS (I was really wanting a VS1) and SI and ended up with an SI2 because I couldn't tell a difference, why pay for what you cannot see? Id also go down to a G if you can, it's still white white and will lower your cost a little.

The CUT ADVISOR link in the toolbar up top is where you can run the table and other numb ers to find out how good the cut is.

Other sites: NiceIce.com, Icestore.com, Goodoldgold.com, whiteflash.com, superbcert.com, winfields.com (sp) If you buy a stone from one you can likely send it to another for setting but several of those will do the setting for you, I know Icestore and whiteflash can make just about anything and I am sure the others(that do settings) can too.

 

[nuhobby]

I am in a similar boat, but aiming for a 60 point stone. As for value there are, according to "Diamond Guy" Fred Cuellar, which, by the way all you experienced, leonid and Mr. Cut Nut and moremoremore and Denver Appraiser and EVERYONE, what do you think of that guy's advice? He says never to exceed 61% depth, it is like walking over a cliff. And also what about his other advice? Is he really the guru he claims to be.

Anyway, Mr. Cuellar says that there are corresponding clarity grades for colors in order to maximize return on the investment. A D IF can return up to 10% a year, he says. The others are:

E VVS, G VS, I SI, but he doesn't even recommend wearing a stone bought for investment purpose.

A well cut J will look white face up, but not from the side. A VS2 is eye clean. I have looked at about 15 diamonds in my search so far, but only two for any considerable length of time. We were looking at square brilliants but now round.

I had a look at a square brilliant a gracious supplier sent in to a gracious local jeweler. I found that this stone sent out sparkles like crazy, especially along the upper facets of the stone, but when compared to the Hearts On Fire Dream was not as explosive. The white light return did not compare, and that is why I neglect to mention the brand name. However the Dream, though nearly 20 points less in carat weight, was also priced $600 higher, but since both are presently outside of my budget, I bought neither.

I recommend reading this board intensively and I found Fred Cuellar's "How to Buy a Diamond" to be something to consider. I also bought Renee Newman's "Diamond Buying Guide." There is information in both these books about how NOT to buy a diamond. They can be drilled, lasered, baked, fracture filled, and painted with nail polish to trick you.

So as a fellow newbie in the same boat as engageme, I would like to pose one more question to the experts, besides buying at Tiffany's or Harry Winston's, how can I guarantee that the only man made process my sweetie's diamond has gone through is the polishing (oh... and the haggling)? haha

Is this 3-Beam tiny lasering company yet prevalent in the industry?

Thank you

Josh Langer

 

[alexah]

skip Fred's book

feel free to do a search on him using the PS search engine - there's been lots of discussions about him.

 

[bar01]

Wow - lots of questions. Best if you have these kind of detailed discussions with your PS vendor (blue nile, whiteflash, GOG, Nice Ice, Winfields, etc)

Let me give you my two cents on your budget and diamond selection. I am no expert - not even very knowledgable - so you can ignore.

Coosing the qualities you want in a stone is very personal. For me - I think anything above VS1 is wasted Many here think a good eye clean SI1 is the best value (I vote for VS2). I think above F color is also wasted. AGS 0 does not ensure a good diamond - you have to know the other information that some sites won't give you. If you set your sites on a H&A ideal cut, VS2, G/F stone you can get a bigger stone than you might be thinking with your higher ratings.

Check the stones from some of the PS vendors mentioned for their stones.

Here is a nice diamond example from Wink

Example Diamond


As for a diamond being an investment - you will get a lot of debate about that. However, if you focus on a great cut (below 2.0 HCA score) and then get a good VS1/VS2, G/F quality - after 40 years your diamond will probably be worth more than you paid for it.

 

[quaeritur]

The best information I've found has not been in a book, but rather in the tutorials here on PriceScope, at GoodOldGold.com and at NiceIce.com.

Start there, you will find the answers to all the questions you posted. If you have more questions, by all means, post them too!

Oh, yeah, I'd recycle the Fred Cuellar book. Too much misinformation for the little bit of good information you'll find in it.

 

[valeria101]

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On 9/3/2004 8:54:32 AM engageme wrote:



40 years from now I want it to appreciate in value.

----------------

I would not bet on that no matter what greades you buy into

D/IF or J/SI2.

Just look at what happened with the couple' dozen threads opened this year on this forum askig how to sell a diamond. And not all those stones are low color and clarity or undesirable in any way.

Most sources touting diamonds as investment (or "investment quality" diamonds, by any other name) bring as argument the fact that prices kept going up and there is a highly managed market that does insure they will go up. What they forget to say is where the price stats come from - these are retail prices that diamond dealer get from retailers or estimates of retail prices offered to the public. Reselling diamonds would not bring anything near - just try to see how diamonds sold by the public are priced.

On the other hand, if prices go up and you want to own a diamond anyway, the best time to buy is... well, now. If you know how to resell a diamond for what you paid retail, than you know something Pricescope blissfully ignores.

I would not bet that ideal cut diamonds are radically different, in this regard. Only they are more desirable, so reselling them might be faster and at a lesser loss.

And.. who knows what will be fashionable among diamodns cuts in 40 YEARS?

The conclusion of this is meant to be: get a stone that looks good - this is all diamonds are good for

Just a few things I though would better be said, of course.

 

[goldengirl]

I'd like to toss in my $0.02; please keep in mind that I, too, am just a novice, but this is what I have learned recently:

1. Diamonds make nice jewelry. They do not make good investments.

2. Three things make a diamond's color more "forgivable" (ie, you can slide lower on the color scale and not really notice the difference): a well-cut round brilliant, a yellow gold setting, and blue fluorescence. You have two of these, so unless your lady fair is particularly discerning when it comes to color, you could probably go comfortably as low as a J. (!!) Keeping this in mind, I would focus my efforts elsewhere, and use color as the final decision between stones, instead of an initial disqualification.

3. I recommend the tutorial on this website; it has a chart which shows you exactly what numbers regarding depth and table %'s (and crown and pavilion angles, etc!) are acceptable for an ideal cut, a good cut, ad naseum... it is a range, not a mathematical equation; and the table %, if you're really concerned, is more personal preference within the range.

4.Culets, as far as I can tell, should be polished--the cert should ideally read "none". If they chop off the tip, it creates a flat surface parallel to the flat surface of the table, which essentially creates a window THROUGH the diamond. If the stone had a large culet, you could see right through it. If it's small (or doesn't exist) you'll be okay.

5. A diamond's "sparkle" is primarily effected by the cut. I recommend the Halloway Cut Advisor on this site and your own two eyes to tell the difference between two apparently identical diamonds.

6. Fluorescence is personal preference. They used to sell diamonds labeled "blue-white", diamonds that had a noticable fluoro. I personally kinda like them--she may, or may not, and you may, or may not. It's not any better or worse, although strong fluoro may make your diamond have an "oily" appearance. Just shop with care.

Anyway, those were the things to which I felt I had contribute-able information; hope they helped a little, although if you're anything like me, it just made it even HARDER to narrow down the selection!!

 

[quaeritur]

Hey goldengirl... you sure you've only been around here for two weeks?! Check YOU out with the good advice!

 

[Patty]

You don't need a book. Read the tutorals here and on the diamond vendors' sites.

Fluorescence is a matter of taste. In years past "blue whites" were in high demand. Then they fell out of favor and some people avoided them because they were afraid the stone would be "milky" or "oily" looking. This is VERY rare in a fluorescent diamond. In day to day wear in a high color, you will not notice the fluorescence much unless the diamond is under a black light. In direct sunlight the stone will have a light violet/blueish hue. Many people love that effect.

If you will go down a bit on clarity you will save money, as others have pointed out to you. You can get this Superbcert .76, D, VS1 for $4320 or this one .81 Superbcert, D, VS1 for $4650. Both have fluorescence. They are outstanding cuts, colors and clarity.

 

[goldengirl]

Heh heh...I lurked for a few weeks before I ever signed up to post... but I found diamonds sit very close to my heart (who knew??) so I've soaked up everything I could read like a sponge.

(Here's hoping the man doesn't read this!!)

 

[SandyStar03]

LOL-A lot of your questions probably have been answered. But personally-fashion will change but the shape of a diamond wont, you can always change the setting it's in. To me, if you get quality over quantity, you are making a better investment (so to speak) with your money. Even if it's not for the $$$ 40 years from now...You want a diamond to sparkle and have good specs. As for me, it's not about the size because people like myself, notice a lot of flaws and maybe it's just me but I notice girl's diamonds and most of them are...not brilliant, cloudy and really bad cut. Think of it this way, you love her and you only want the best, so why settle for less? If you want something to be sparkling and have great overall appearance, I'd definitely go the extra mile just to get something worth my money on someone I love. That and in situations such as upgrading, you're not going to get much if any value for your trade-in if it's not "quality" or certified. So, you'd end up losing money if you wanted to sell too. You'll never get what you paid for, majorly if it's poor in quality. Also, many many people are LESS likely to buy the ring (should something happen to the relationship, which I doubt) without certification. Make sure the company actually has it certified and or appraised. Anyways, Others may really disagree but it's early in the morning and I think i'm getting delirious so I can't seem to make a good enough arguement...Okiez byez
oh and those two diamond specs. are great, I was just saying in case you wanted to get lower in color-I seem to notice on my diamond which the color is G. but hey a little difference in price for a diamond somewhat bigger? I couldn't decide, you've made a effort in educating yourself, seriously! Good thing, a lot of people fall into the trap and pay too much for nothing.

 

[Todd07]

Hi Joseph,
I had my diamond send to a local independent appraiser so I could view it with his input before making the final buy decision. I felt very comfortable buing over the internet using this approach.

My only hesitation with sending it to an out of town appraiser is you get verification on it's value but you don't get to see it with your own eyes.

 

[denverappraiser]

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On 9/4/2004 12:04:53 PM engageme wrote:

) ...do you recomend sending the diamond to an independent appraiser before purchase or after using the return policy that offer? And, I seem to see alot of 'Sarrasota Gem Lab' posts on this site. Should I consider sending my diamond to them or look for something closer where I can 'walk' in? I live in Central NJ (Ocean County)

Again, thank all of you for your information!

Joseph

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Most vendors will be willing to send the stone to be examined by an independent prior to you finalizing your purchase. Naturally, they will require a payment of some sort before releasing the stone but this is to be expected from a dealer who is sending out such an expensive item on approval. You should be able to find a local appraiser in your neighborhood by the link at the top of the page for appraisers. Rich in Sarrisota will do you a wonderful job but it is better if you get a chance to see the stone yourself. It's worth driving an hour or two to have it shipped to you and take it to the appraiser yourself, assuming it passes your approval first.

On the other hand, this might make a good excuse for a trip down to Florida

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

If you can't find someone local, and you can't justify the trip to Florida, Dave Atlas is in Philadelphia, which I hear is a suburb of New Jersey. He's one of the gods of jewelry appraisers and you would be hard pressed to find anyone better on that side of the Mississippi.

Rich Sherwood can be contacted at http://www.sarasotagemlab.com/

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[fire&ice]

Quality is subjective. Quality on paper? Quality in real life eyes?

Best Quality on paper - DEF VVS stones & above

Quality in real life - G/H (near colorless) VS (more than likely eye clean)

Remember, in a diamond smaller than 1c, the color perception to the eye between an F & a G/H will be minimal. The cost quite a bit more. Also, clarity is graded under 10x mag. No one walks around w/ 10x mag on their diamond. So, the difference between a VVS1 stone & a VS2 stone in real life viewing will more than likely be nil. The price difference - quite a bit more.

One gets too focused on what the paper says. Please understand that a G/VS2 stone w/ a good make is a *very* good quality stone. It maximizes your budget to either save money or go bigger. 5'7" is pretty tall. I think I'd aim for more in the .80+ range.

Some people even go w/ a clean SI stone.

Years ago I heard the same thing about buying color & clarity w/ cooresponding specs. But, in the end, just buy the prettiest stone that fits your budget.

Good luck.

 

[engageme]

Hello again all...well I think I have found one of the 3 that I need....

The G/F and I went to the mall today and she realy likes the 3 stone, Past, Present, Future settings...so I think that I need to get 3 seperate diamonds. (guess I can't say no)

Anyway, I have one picked out (Please see my other post "First Pick for Diamond...Please Advise.")

I am thinking about getting the one above as the center and then getting 2 3/8 stones for the sides....

What do you think?

Joseph