Newbie overwhelmed by diamond search!!! Seeks HELP.

[calliquaquaversal]

Hello folks, The subject explains my sentiments. From what I can gather, all things being equal, I should be most concerned with cut quality, then color and clarity. My girlfriend and I both want a diamond that really sparkles. We both want visual beauty. She is leaning towards a princess and I towards a round. (probably be a princess) This weekend I intend to begin eyeballing loose diamonds. Both of us want the best looking looking diamond for the money. Investment or a near "perfect" stone doesn`t matter. Short of staring at the stone under perfect light where is the point of diminishing returns in visual beauty in regards to color and clarity? How do stones look different loose as compared to mounted? What`s the difference in size and sparkle between a princess and a round at the same weight? My maxium price is $15000. (gulp) What could/should I expect at this price point? Any advice would be MOST appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[perry]

You will almost certainly do better both price and quality wise to work with some of the pricescope vendors. If you are lucky you live close to one.

Brick & Mortar (B&M) stores tend to have much higher mark-ups, and rarely have very knowelgable sales reps.

Here is my standard advice- aimed principally at internet shopping (although see the last one for in store shopping).

1) If you need to buy the ring now - and do not really know a lot about quality of cut and want ot get a stunning diamond - with certifications on how stunning it is - and pay a reasonable price: Go directly to NiceIce or Good Old Gold.

2) If you need to buy right now, and want a stunning diamond without all the extra certification on how great it is: Go to Whiteflash (A Cut Above), Winfields (Wink Jones - Infinity diamonds), Supperbcert.

3) If you have a few days, but do not want to do the research and learn about quality cut diamonds - post a message here asking for help. There are PS members who will search for you.

4) If you have a few days and want to learn about diamonds, issues, and what makes a great one: read the tutorials a couple of times, the FAQ forum and search the forums.

5) If you have the time and want to really learn about diamonds, issues, and what makes a great one: Read the tutorial severall times, the FAQ forum, and lurk for a while (this can take months to really learn). This is also a way to become part of a great goup of people.

6) If you are going to shop for diamonds from any store - or inspect diamonds shipped in. Get the IdealScope (I also recommend the light table, and you may wish to get a loupe and tweezers as well). If your going to spend $$$$ on a diamond - you ought to be willing to spend a hundred or so to get the tools needed to be able to tell that you are actually getting a dazzling diamond. Note that most jewelry store lighting is set-up to make the worst dog of a diamond sparkle.

Perry

 

[Kaleigh]

Perry has given you some very good advice. You have an awesome budget to buy an incredible diamond. First do the tutorials, they are a big help. As far as vendors go I love all of the ones that Perry recommended. We are here to help so do your search and come here and ask away. I wish you well in your search and hope you find a fabulous diamond.

 

[Regular Guy]

I think you''re asking some particularly good questions. For example...

Date: 8/1/2005 10:15:46 PM
Author:calliquaquaversal
What`s the difference in size and sparkle between a princess and a round at the same weight?

Ostensibly, rounds had been regarded to have a leg up on other shapes, except that recently, guidelines for the new AGS0 have shaken things up a bit. Given your girlfriend''s preferences, read up about that here, and just as Perry has some general shopping advice, so do I, just below my signature.

Regards,

 

[mepearl53]

Date: 8/1/2005 11:29:00 PM
Author: perry


Brick & Mortar (B&M) stores tend to have much higher mark-ups, and rarely have very knowelgable sales reps.

Perry, this is not a accurate statement. Although I respect the community which I consider myself one of all the consumer has to do is ask if the B&M will consider the brokerage of a diamond. We are a B&M, as Wink and Johnathon is. and I think we understand the competition level of today''s market. The jewelry trade is beginning to understand this also and they can compete! The stores that own the diamonds probably have a higher price than a brokered stone but the consumer can view the diamond and see the characteristics of it rather than paying upfront, having it appraised, returning it or having it set. These are all costs and should be considered in the final price. I think if you allow them the diamond and mounting price, and these should be competitive, the B&M''s will be fine price wise. What I think would be unfair is for those that do a quality presentation of diamond education, and ask a reasonable profit, that one would use this and buy a brokered stone that the broker does not own, elsewhere. And, I also think there is value in the service a B&M offers. Just yesterday a customer came to us with a loose center diamond he had purchased from a on line vendor. It was only a month old and he did not want to go through the hassle of sending it back. His girlfriend did not want to give up the diamond so quickly and this was a pain for them.

Here is another question one should ask. Who will be in business in the next 3 to 5 years. Warranties and guarantees are fine if one is there to back them up. The diamond market is changing very rapidly and I guarantee there will be a shake up in the landscape you see today. Who will offer the buy back, trade up, etc., that you see listed as policy on many sites and stores information?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/2/2005 7:44:59 AM
Author: mepearl53

Date: 8/1/2005 11:29:00 PM

Author: perry




Brick & Mortar (B&M) stores tend to have much higher mark-ups, and rarely have very knowelgable sales reps.

Perry, this is not a accurate statement. Although I respect the community which I consider myself one of all the consumer has to do is ask if the B&M will consider the brokerage of a diamond. We are a B&M, as Wink and Johnathon is. and I think we understand the competition level of today''s market. The jewelry trade is beginning to understand this also and they can compete! The stores that own the diamonds probably have a higher price than a brokered stone but the consumer can view the diamond and see the characteristics of it rather than paying upfront, having it appraised, returning it or having it set. These are all costs and should be considered in the final price. I think if you allow them the diamond and mounting price, and these should be competitive, the B&M''s will be fine price wise. What I think would be unfair is for those that do a quality presentation of diamond education, and ask a reasonable profit, that one would use this and buy a brokered stone that the broker does not own, elsewhere. And, I also think there is value in the service a B&M offers. Just yesterday a customer came to us with a loose center diamond he had purchased from a on line vendor. It was only a month old and he did not want to go through the hassle of sending it back. His girlfriend did not want to give up the diamond so quickly and this was a pain for them.


Here is another question one should ask. Who will be in business in the next 3 to 5 years. Warranties and guarantees are fine if one is there to back them up. The diamond market is changing very rapidly and I guarantee there will be a shake up in the landscape you see today. Who will offer the buy back, trade up, etc., that you see listed as policy on many sites and stores information?

With all due respect to the b&m''s that do get it and provide great service at good prices I want to make a few comments.
Yes there are a handful of great b&m''s out there but from consumer experience shared here and in my area they are the exception rather than the rule.
If I lived near you or near GOG or some of the other PS vendors b&m or not even if it meant paying extra in the form of sales tax it would be worth it to me.
But the vast majority of us dont have great b&m''s nearby if we are very lucky there might be a good one.
Your right there is going to be a shakedown and a huge one but history has shown in other industries that the ones that have the best chance of survival will be the innovators and the ones willing to change as needed.
If a PS vendor fails it will be because they get too set in there ways and too corporate to move fast enough to stay alive.

In my opinion there is a much better chance GOG, WF , yourself and others on here will be around in 20 years than the average corner b&m.
The whole word is just moving in that direction and the diamond industry is just 10-20 years behind the rest of the world in it.

Sad but true.

 

[Regular Guy]

Re B&Ms...I think knowledgeable jewelers should share the details. It's a small difference that makes a difference. It's an attitude that says...I will help most by teaching another to fish. And...it means that to appear to others as a professional...you are not holding the secrets, but sharing them. Or, do you have any to share, really?

Sixteen years ago, when I proposed to my wife, I knew I wanted a well cut diamond, but I didn't have a set of criteria to identify one. I had been directed to Savitt Jewelers in CT, a well respected jeweler, and although I could tell him I wanted a well cut diamond, I didn't have any tools to verify the results of my purchase. I bought 2 diamonds from him..the first was intended as the engagement ring, but I wasn't ready to give it, and so I returned it within 30 days, and the second, I was ready to give, but I don't think it was cut so well (was he getting even?....probably he just showed what he had in stock...and it's since gotten lost, causing me to replace it, causing me to find Pricescope). I even asked him about Lazare and branded diamonds, but he wasn't responsive.

More recently, I was at Princess Jewelers in Rockville. A nice aesthetic, professional air, and he knew about well cut diamonds, and told me I should look for one. But...I asked him how I could know if it was well cut…indeed, how he or his store would know. I started to share what I knew about crown & pavilion angles, he told me that GIA did not have a criteria for ideal cut…and he really only stopped for a beat…going on to tell me that I should only look for diamonds that were well cut…missing completely any opportunity to discuss the criteria by which he or I could tell if a diamond was indeed well cut.

Since, with bright lights, any diamond will look good, even for well regarded jewelers, you don’t want to have to feel as though you’re reaching a jeweler on a good day, and after he’s gotten in a nice supply.
As I’ve said before….trust, but be able to verify. Likewise, for the pros on this board…although it may be good enough for you as a jeweler to use a baseline set of criteria to eliminate poor performers, and be satisfied that what you have left is good enough for sale, for any customer…they want to know they’ve optimized among what you have, and what is available. Technologies like Brilliancescopes may try to address this. Likewise, minor facet information, consistent with variability from one diamond to another, will be helpful for consumers, I should think.

While deferring to branded options is reasonable, this again asks the buyer to trust, rather than verify, and also, it demands that a premium be paid by the buyer, when it is possible that opportunities to DIY…do it yourself, with the benefits of the skills of the jeweler, being left unexploited. For heavens sake…if I’m going to go with a branded option, I hardly need the additional knowledge the jeweler can provide…because they are merely a middleman at that point, having been entrusted to carry that premium line, and so they can trust along with me. If a jeweler can help me find savings, and show me where the value is…this will be of value. But it will be helpful to put some meat on the bones…not just asking me…do I love it…but suggesting you can easily love it, because it conforms to ideal proportions in just such a way, and helping me see both the beauty, and the basis for it.

 

[mepearl53]

Your right there is going to be a shakedown and a huge one but history has shown in other industries that the ones that have the best chance of survival will be the innovators and the ones willing to change as needed.
If a PS vendor fails it will be because they get too set in there ways and too corporate to move fast enough to stay alive.

Your point is well taken Strmrdr, But the shake out will be much more rapid. With DeBeers supplier of choice the diamond industry will be in the hands of far fewer dealers or sightholders. I believe the number is now 94 with the addition of the 11 announced recently. My take on this is DeBeers wants to get rid of the diamond wholesaler or the middlemen. This will put pressure on the database vendors for their suppliers will no longer be able to get the goods they need to feed into the internet/retail market. The small mom and pops will be gone in this scenario unless they bring their business into the 21st century. Of the rough diamond market buying outside of the cartel these people will have to align themselves with the larger retailers to compete price wise with the SOC vendors. I also in vision that ultimately these outside cartel buyers will eventually sell directly to the public as DeBeers is doing with the opening of their own stores. It''s just a matter of time before they figure it out it''s the way that they do it that''s the big question mark.

 

[mepearl53]

Date: 8/2/2005 10:27:38 AM
Author: Regular Guy

Re B&Ms...I think knowledgeable jewelers should share the details. It''s a small difference that makes a difference. It''s an attitude that says...I will help most by teaching another to fish. And...it means that to appear to others as a professional...you are not holding the secrets, but sharing them. Or, do you have any to share, really?




. If a jeweler can help me find savings, and show me where the value is…this will be of value. But it will be helpful to put some meat on the bones…not just asking me…do I love it…but suggesting you can easily love it, because it conforms to ideal proportions in just such a way, and helping me see both the beauty, and the basis for it.

RG I agree with what you are saying here. With the information age upon us transparency is a must to good customer service. Also, the jewelers must understand that it is the customer whom they work for. These are huge mind sets but they are starting to get it. Anyway the ones that I talk to do. Is it really that bad out there???

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 8/2/2005 11:27:00 AM
Author: mepearl53

Is it really that bad out there???

If the devil is in the details...hopefully when GIA starts to include them, perhaps the point will be largely taken care of.

Regards,

 

[MissAva]

You have 15,000$ for the ring...what sort of setting does she want? Settings can be expensive and worth the money too. I would find out what she wants her setting to be and then subtract that number from your budget prior to looking at stones. Girls are funny about such things, we want what we want. Good Luck!
(also if you need help with finding stones or settings you have come to the right place and we are happy to have you.)

 

[mrssalvo]

you''ve got a very nice budget and shouldn''t having any trouble getting a fab ring. I agree with Matatora, find out about what kind of setting she wants so know how much you should budget. I ran a quick search and a 2 carat princess runs about 12K and that would leave you 3K for the setting.