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New member - researching for e-ring - young and dumb.

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nukezero

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
63
Hey guys, I've just been following the forum last week and learned a bit. I have a few questions about diamond and what not. But first let me quickly begin my personal background.

1. Girlfriend jokes around to me that diamond cost should be 3-months salary. But I know she'll accept anything. =) Anyways, if this is tradition, does anyone know is that referring to 3-months gross salary or after tax salary? :lol:

2. Ok, let's get the fun started. I went to Ben Bridge (yeah crappy place I know) but met a very nice gentlemen who showed me some diamonds. I also brought my girlfriend along just to try some out. She has a size 4.0-4.25 finger. It turns out that 2.0 carat round looks really bad on her finger. Quite tacky since it's so big. 1.5 seems like the perfect size. So 1.5 it is.

3. My budget is around $15-20k for round brilliant. I can stretch a little more if necessary but would probably have to go on some payment plan.

I first used Blue Nile but found their prices quite high. I then discovered pricescope and B2C Jewels as well as James Allen.

Question 1: When I saw the rotational pictures on JA diamonds with ideal cut and IF clarity, I noticed that I didn't see the proper "star" facets like I did when I was at the mall at Ben Bridge. At BenBridge the salesman showed me a perfect signature ideal through a microscope. I could see perfectly shaped star-facets. On jamesallen.com, Is this because the angle of the pictures is wrong? Would all Ideal Cut plus IF clarity have that perfectly symmetric star-looking facets that I saw? Obviously, many of the star legs are either broken or missing in the JA pictures.

Question 2: I'm pretty sensitive to color and I know she is too. She has many friends and cousins who are already getting engaged and I can't help but say that if these girls put their diamonds together, it would obviously be noticeable who's diamond is better. Kind of like putting 10 apples together and you can easily tell which one's better looking than the other as opposed to just seeing one apple. So that brings me to the question that , I would like to maximize where it makes the most sense: color (possibly D to F) and cut (for sure must be ideal). I know they say you can go as low as SI1 or SI2 and be safe, but when I saw even some VS1 and VS2, the imperfections bothered me a bit. I almost wanted to go IF/FL.

Question 3: What's up with the "True Hearts" or "A Cut Above" diamond from WH and JA. Are these marketing gimmicks or are they even better than GIA/AGS "ideal" rating?

Question 4: At any time would any inclusions(VS2 and above) cause the light performance of the diamond to degrade, or affect the "true hearts" of the diamond to appear?

So to recap, it looks like with my budget, I can only get:

1.5 carat
Ideal Cut
F color
Flawless clarity
~$20k

So am I getting ripped off or can I do better?

Thanks

-Richard :wavey:

P.S. I have very sensitive eyes. So even browsing through JA, I can immediately tell just by rotating the pictures, between color D and F. There's a hint of yellow and with my Dell UltraSharp 24" monitor, it clearly displays it.
 
Flawless clarity in my humble opinion is overkill. No-one, and I sincerely mean no-one will be able to tell the difference between an eyeclean VS1 to an internally flawless stone anyway. If it were me I would save some money, get a nice colour and a slightly bigger stone. What seems like a large stone on the hand now will probably appear much smaller in 5 years time and after you get used to seeing it. Maybe a compromise, a 1.60 to a 1.75 in a decent colour with a strong eye clean clarity. I will let the gurus of finding stones step in now as there are many others on here who will find you amazing cuts.

James Allen, Good Old Gold and Brian Gavin are good places to start.
 
Anything VS2 and above is considered "eye-clean" after reading jamesallen.com. So by that definition, if I choose any diamond out there from reputable places that is VS2 or better, than it is considered eye clean?
 
Welcome to PS! :wavey: I'm sure many PSers (myself included) wish they could have your budget :D . I'll address some of the basics you asked, and let the more experienced cover the advanced:

I'm sure the marketing department at De Beers would be keen on pushing the gross salary instead of after tax :lol:

1) Clarity has nothing to do with seeing arrows in the stone, only the cut determines that.

2) Do you remember if the Ben Bridge stones you saw were GIA/AGS certified? I ask because you said that you saw inclusions on a VS1 stone (presumably without a loupe), which definitely shouldn't be the case. B&M stones tend to use labs like EGL, which have been shown to give stones 2-3 grades higher than they actually are.

Many people believe that G color is the sweet spot of color vs price, as it's only one step down from the colorless category. Once you cross into that category, prices jump very significantly. Once in a setting, it is very hard to differentiate colors. An ideal cut helps mask color as well. D and E color stones just don't seem worth it IMO. I should note that while you may see color differences in JA's pictures, it's possible it's because the diamond's reflecting the color of something in the room. If you have the time, GOG did a great 2 part video on color: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V_Ng2-8OmE and another comparing colors face up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzBGhkF5C4o

As for clarity, most VS2 stones are all be eye clean except under a loupe. Some SI1 and occasional SI2s are also eye clean, they just take longer to find. The idea of getting an IF stone seems great, but you're paying for something you'll never see. It'll be no different to your eyes than a VVS1/VVS2, except thousands of dollars more expensive.

3) GIA Excellent and AGS Ideal grades are given to stones that are within a certain range. As with all ranges, there are stones that can be better than another, but still receive the same grade. Brands like ACA from WF take the guesswork out of choosing a 'super ideal' diamond, and a stone is given the brand only if it passes more exacting standards above what GIA/AGS labs use. This extra assurance doesn't come free though, and explains the price increase. I don't know much about JA's True Hearts, but I know WF ACA's are highly regarded on PS, as well as Brian Gavin Signature.

4) I don't believe any inclusions in VS2 stones or above would affect the light performance, but I'll defer to a more knowledgeable PSer.
 
nukezero|1368160507|3443886 said:
Hey guys, I've just been following the forum last week and learned a bit. I have a few questions about diamond and what not. But first let me quickly begin my personal background.

1. Girlfriend jokes around to me that diamond cost should be 3-months salary. But I know she'll accept anything. =) Anyways, if this is tradition, does anyone know is that referring to 3-months gross salary or after tax salary? :lol:

2. Ok, let's get the fun started. I went to Ben Bridge (yeah crappy place I know) but met a very nice gentlemen who showed me some diamonds. I also brought my girlfriend along just to try some out. She has a size 4.0-4.25 finger. It turns out that 2.0 carat round looks really bad on her finger. Quite tacky since it's so big. 1.5 seems like the perfect size. So 1.5 it is.

3. My budget is around $15-20k for round brilliant. I can stretch a little more if necessary but would probably have to go on some payment plan.

I first used Blue Nile but found their prices quite high. I then discovered pricescope and B2C Jewels as well as James Allen.

Question 1: When I saw the rotational pictures on JA diamonds with ideal cut and IF clarity, I noticed that I didn't see the proper "star" facets like I did when I was at the mall at Ben Bridge. At BenBridge the salesman showed me a perfect signature ideal through a microscope. I could see perfectly shaped star-facets. On jamesallen.com, Is this because the angle of the pictures is wrong? Would all Ideal Cut plus IF clarity have that perfectly symmetric star-looking facets that I saw? Obviously, many of the star legs are either broken or missing in the JA pictures.

Not necessarily. Perfectly star facets? Do you mean arrows and hearts? You might be looking at a modified round diamond in the store.

Question 2: I'm pretty sensitive to color and I know she is too. She has many friends and cousins who are already getting engaged and I can't help but say that if these girls put their diamonds together, it would obviously be noticeable who's diamond is better. Kind of like putting 10 apples together and you can easily tell which one's better looking than the other as opposed to just seeing one apple. So that brings me to the question that , I would like to maximize where it makes the most sense: color (possibly D to F) and cut (for sure must be ideal). I know they say you can go as low as SI1 or SI2 and be safe, but when I saw even some VS1 and VS2, the imperfections bothered me a bit. I almost wanted to go IF/FL.

Cut followed by size is most critical when people make comparisons. Put clarity at the end of your list.

Question 3: What's up with the "True Hearts" or "A Cut Above" diamond from WH and JA. Are these marketing gimmicks or are they even better than GIA/AGS "ideal" rating?

It's your answer to the first question.

Question 4: At any time would any inclusions(VS2 and above) cause the light performance of the diamond to degrade, or affect the "true hearts" of the diamond to appear?

Maybe. Clarity might affect light performances in some cases. Next, The heart patternings/arrows has nothing to do with clarity.

So to recap, it looks like with my budget, I can only get:

1.5 carat
Ideal Cut
F color
Flawless clarity
~$20k

So am I getting ripped off or can I do better?

Thanks

-Richard :wavey:

P.S. I have very sensitive eyes. So even browsing through JA, I can immediately tell just by rotating the pictures, between color D and F. There's a hint of yellow and with my Dell UltraSharp 24" monitor, it clearly displays it.
Click to expand...


Answers to your questions are found in the quote above.

Go for the D colored stones then. Use this to prioritize. Cut => Color => Size => Clarity
 
Thanks for all the responses guys. The stone that I saw in Ben Bridge was their "Signature Ideal" which they claimed was the most perfect ideal cut. It still had some minor inclusions but definitely I saw evenly proportional arrows and hearts when we peeked through the microscope. Or unless he adjusted in such a way to give the perfect angle? In any case, he did it pretty quickly. 30 seconds and he had the diamond adjusted to show me under his microscope.

I am leaning towards buying online, so don't know who to choose from. Most youtube videos tell me that I must go see the diamond in person to make sure I get that brilliance that I'm supposed to see than trust what the vendors say. With the House of Representatives passing the internet sales tax soon next year, I suspect I better get my shopping done.

One more question.

I noticed that the best, best diamonds with true ideal cuts seem to come with AGSL certification because they go above and beyond to grade the cut as "Ideal (0)" but GIA certified only list the cut as "Excellent" and nothing else. Yet, when I go to many websites, an "ideal" cut is considered "excellent" by GIA. Yet could it be possible that this "excellent" cut may not be the same as AGS's "ideal (0)" ?

Also, it looks like I must look for a triple "Ideal (0)" for cut, light perf, polish, and symmetry. Also, may I ask, why don't the vendors have two (2) certificates for each diamond? One from AGS, one from GIA so as to maximize and guarantee the quality of the diamond?

edit: (stars and hearts, i meant arrows and hearts, yes)
 
The color is not as obvious with your eyes as on a computer screen. Most people cannot tell the difference between D and G in the face-up position, and between D and F, the number of people who can tell is much smaller.

Something like this for 20K is what you can get: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.72-carat-f-color-vs2-clarity-very-good-cut-sku-35813

I'm having a hard time finding flawless in your budget. :cheeky:

No one would ever do two reports unless the customer asks and is willing to pay for it, because it is very common for diamonds reports to vary by one grade, it is within range of tolerance, and if you submit to GIA two times no guarantees it will come back the same twice. Way too confusing. Only sometimes you see a GIA report paired with EGL, because you expect the grades to be different; some people won't buy EGL paper.
 
JulieN|1368165359|3443921 said:
The color is not as obvious with your eyes as on a computer screen. Most people cannot tell the difference between D and G in the face-up position, and between D and F, the number of people who can tell is much smaller.

Something like this for 20K is what you can get: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.72-carat-f-color-vs2-clarity-very-good-cut-sku-35813

I'm having a hard time finding flawless in your budget. :cheeky:

No one would ever do two reports unless the customer asks and is willing to pay for it, because it is very common for diamonds reports to vary by one grade, it is within range of tolerance, and if you submit to GIA two times no guarantees it will come back the same twice. Way too confusing. Only sometimes you see a GIA report paired with EGL, because you expect the grades to be different; some people won't buy EGL paper.
Click to expand...

That's a nice diamond for the price. But I'm kind of hesistant now. Now that I saw "A Cut Above" and "True Hearts" categorized diamonds from WhiteFlash and JamesAllen, their AGS report shows the light performance map, and they looked outstandingly perfect. The other ones that are not given this category, shows disproportionate light performance map. I see choppy "green spots" around the edges of the diamond even when they are graded triple AGS Ideal 0, yet they were not given the "true hearts" stamp.

This is the diamond I'm referring to.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-dia...carat-E-color-VS2-clarity-Ideal-cut-sku-73549

Yet this diamond, which has the same spec, has the perfect light performance map:

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-dia...arat-e-color-vs2-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-126913

I am willing to go down to E or F color, VS2, but I'm so fixated to ensure I get a perfect light-performance diamond. Is this super important to maximize the brilliance when my girlfriend walks into the room?

Thanks
 
Another vote for cut (buy the best cut you can get), colour, size, clarity in that order since colour is important to you.

And no not all VS1 stones are eyeclean. Always ask the vendor. The better the cut the more inclusions they tend to hide. It also depends upon the type of inclusions. If you want something that knocks everything out of the park simply with the bling and sparkle factor, either a GIA Hearts & Arrows round signature or Ideal cut or you could also look at a Solasfera these have extra facets, look on Good Old Gold's website for them, if you can go and see them in person, to determine which you like more even better.
 
You don't need a super perfect ASET for it to look every bit as good as something like Whiteflash's "A Cut Above" hearts and arrows. The ASET and Ideal scope is much more sensitive than your eyes.

Here is a video that GOG did, it compares a "premium" cut that obtains AGS 0 light performance to a "Signature H&A." They are very difficult to tell apart. You can see the ASET is not as textbook ideal as a Signature equivalent. http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9044/

James Allen, and some other vendors, will provide an Ideal Scope image upon request. JA will give you 3.
 
I agree with JulieN, remember brands like WF's ACA are partially meant to take out the guesswork on finding a great performing stone. You have knowledgeable PSers who are already doing that for you :)

Do you happen to have a setting in mind from a certain vendor? If you do, it's recommended that you buy the stone from that vendor, so if any damage happens during the setting you're completely covered, saving you from having to get third party insurance for a loose stone

May I also suggest looking at Brian Gavin Diamonds? Brian was the one who created the standards for WF's ACA, and ended up making his own company. His signature collection can be considered as the same.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/d...ls/1.547-f-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104052954002
 
I think Arkie meant that all VS2 diamonds are not eyeclean. You usually can't even see inclusions with a 10x loupe in VS1. Anything above that is not going to have any advantage but will have a higher price. However, I think VS2 is going to be in your price range if you want to go with D-F color. You can go to VS1 if you want to go to G color.

Here are the stones I suggest for you. They are top cut quality. No one can outdo you on these (visually) unless they go for a larger diamond.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2517134.htm ($19,285 PS/wire price)

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2696786.htm ($20,101 " )

And here is an E VS1 which is over your budget:

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2708988.htm ($24,963 " )
 
diamondseeker2006|1368168935|3443932 said:
I think Arkie meant that all VS2 diamonds are not eyeclean. You usually can't even see inclusions with a 10x loupe in VS1. Anything above that is not going to have any advantage but will have a higher price. However, I think VS2 is going to be in your price range if you want to go with D-F color. You can go to VS1 if you want to go to G color.

Here are the stones I suggest for you. They are top cut quality. No one can outdo you on these (visually) unless they go for a larger diamond.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2517134.htm ($19,285 PS/wire price)

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2696786.htm ($20,101 " )

And here is an E VS1 which is over your budget:

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2708988.htm ($24,963 " )
Click to expand...

Thanks Hawk and Diamodnseeker2006. Those are the exact diamodns I'm looking at right now too.

I don't have a setting in mind. My girlfriend likes the Tiffany Lucida setting. It seems pretty straight forward and hopefully I should be able to find someone that has that.
 
whiteflash has the Vatche X Prong, and there are some variations of it.
 
One more thing. Once I buy the setting and diamond (mounted and installed) shipped to me, if I want to take it to a store to get it appraised, how do I usually go about doing that? LIke how much would that cost me if I just got a another company to take a look at it and make sure I got exactly what I paid for. Ya know, just to make sure the serial numbers match the certificate and the gradings are okay. Jeweler's are humans and I know they make mistakes, so I want to make sure the right diamond was installed.

Would the diamond need to be off the setting in order for the appraiser to examine it carefully or is it fine being seated in the setting? How much would it typically cost for mom and pop shops to take a look at the diamond for me?

thanks
 
diamondseeker2006|1368168935|3443932 said:
I think Arkie meant that all VS2 diamonds are not eyeclean. You usually can't even see inclusions with a 10x loupe in VS1. Anything above that is not going to have any advantage but will have a higher price. However, I think VS2 is going to be in your price range if you want to go with D-F color. You can go to VS1 if you want to go to G color.

Here are the stones I suggest for you. They are top cut quality. No one can outdo you on these (visually) unless they go for a larger diamond.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2517134.htm ($19,285 PS/wire price)

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2696786.htm ($20,101 " )

And here is an E VS1 which is over your budget:

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2708988.htm ($24,963 " )
Click to expand...


I have actually seen a VS1 that was NOT eyeclean, so now I always ask. Usually we all make the assumption that it would be eyeclean but it doesn't hurt to ask anyway!!!!
 
nukezero|1368171975|3443945 said:
JulieN|1368171013|3443940 said:
whiteflash has the Vatche X Prong, and there are some variations of it.
Click to expand...

http://m.tiffany.com/Shared/Engagement/Media/Products/SKU/GRP10056/27092772_d_1_1.jpg
https://www.pricescope.com/files/images/photo2_0.JPG

this is the exact style she likes. splits into two and has diamond accents. She also loves if it twists, but the band must be thin. also it must not end, it must continuous and the ring must continue to the other side 360.
Click to expand...

I was going to suggest that whiteflash one too, they sell ritani, and ritani has a split shank like the settings she likes
http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/diamond-settings/ritani-classic-split-shank-diamond-engagement-ring-2237.htm


but if your budget is tight, heres a g from ritani you could stick in that setting
http://www.ritani.com/diamonds/round-diamond-1-50-Carat-G-color-AGSL-certified/D-Z3Y53Q
 
I was able to watch all the videos you guys mentioned from good old gold as well as from 'DiamondInfoMan' on youtube. Mostly they are talking about color and how a perfectly cut diamond will still beat out another diamond 3 shades higher in color, which I thought was amazing.

The only time to discern color was when you flip it on it's side against white brackground. I don't think any lady does that. Plus, when they moved it face up from D color to O color. I could not see any difference from D down to H.

The sweet spot does seem to be the 'G' color, so I guess I'll focus on that color now and pair it with a ideal cut H&A. Now i"m mostly left wondering about carat size. It would seem that the relationship is not linear when it comes to carat size. The cost of 1.5 to 2.0 is greater than 1.0 to 1.5 and even 0.5 to 1.0.
 
nukezero|1368250099|3444756 said:
It would seem that the relationship is not linear when it comes to carat size. The cost of 1.5 to 2.0 is greater than 1.0 to 1.5 and even 0.5 to 1.0.
Click to expand...

That's right, it's also the same for the size differences. The size difference between 0.50ct and 0.70ct will be a lot more noticeable than between 1.5ct and 1.7ct.

After placed in a setting, the easiest way to see color would be through the side, if the setting head allows for that view.
 
nukezero|1368171578|3443943 said:
One more thing. Once I buy the setting and diamond (mounted and installed) shipped to me, if I want to take it to a store to get it appraised, how do I usually go about doing that? LIke how much would that cost me if I just got a another company to take a look at it and make sure I got exactly what I paid for. Ya know, just to make sure the serial numbers match the certificate and the gradings are okay. Jeweler's are humans and I know they make mistakes, so I want to make sure the right diamond was installed.

Would the diamond need to be off the setting in order for the appraiser to examine it carefully or is it fine being seated in the setting? How much would it typically cost for mom and pop shops to take a look at the diamond for me?

thanks
Click to expand...

If you just wanted the appraiser to confirm the GIA/AGS inscription on the girdle and the inclusion plot, then I think it's okay to appraised already set. They'll be able to be more accurate if it's a loose stone (able to give precise measurements/weights/color/etc), but it's up to you to determine if that's really necessary. There are a few appraisers who post on PS, and a quick search can come up with a few threads on this subject: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...-report-is-issued-on-mounted-diamonds.187220/

I would recommend bringing it to an appraiser who doesn't sell anything, as that's the only sure way to get a completely unbiased expert opinion. Price varies between places, some charge by time spent and others by carat size (charge by time is definitely the preferred method). I believe PS has a database on recommended appraisers under the Resources tab.
 
If you have checked things out with WF, I would give Brain Gavin Diamonds a call and speak with Leslie.
Best of luck.

If you are in the NY area, you could call Chris at ERD and go up and see him.
 
There is no reason to have it appraised unless you need it for insurance. Similar diamonds sold in retail stores such as Hearts on Fire are probably 25-30% more than a WF diamond. Trust me, the appraisal will be higher than what you paid. AGS has already graded the stone as ideal. You do need a value in order to insure, and thankfully, my insurance will insure with the sales receipt and diamond grading report. But if you do need another appraisal to insure, I would tell them upfront what you paid so they don't give you an inflated replacement value because all that does is cause you to pay higher insurance premiums. Tell them the true replacement value is what you paid and that you don't want an inflated, "feel good" value. And definitely have WF set the diamond (or if you go with Vatche, they will send the diamond to Vatche to set).

I would ask WF about the VS2's to determine if they are eyeclean from top and sides.
 
Thanks everyone for the input.

I was very dead set on getting a loose diamond from any one of the online vendors until my girlfriend and I decided to drop by South Coast Plaza in Orange County. We went to Cartier, Harry Winston, Tiffany, and DeBeers.

At the end of the day, I realized her taste. First, she is absolutely fine with whatever I gave her, but between carat size, she'd rather have a smaller "name" brand than a bigger "no name" brand diamond. She's not a gold digger at all. But I guess it's just her feeling that's all.

I kind of understand her in a way. It's kind of like choosing between a from Hyundai V8 engine (making more power) or a Inline-6 from BMW making less power. Most would still buy the BMW even when it commands a premium. (Okay, bad analogy, comparing cars are totally different I guess :D )

At the end of the day, she didn't like HarryWinston too much because they were too plain and simple. Tiffany's also were nice but not extravagant and the Lucida didn't look as good on her finger as the pictures onlnie. When we went to Cartier, she absolutely loved the Ballerine N4207100 (0.90-1.5 carat). I have to admit it did look stunning as hell on her finger. A lot of the other rings didn't really look that great on her. For some reason, the Ballerine makes use of the setting applying lots of sparkling diamonds which amplifies the ring. Even the 0.90 was quite stunning, and I thought that was too small as regular solitaires.

Here's the problem. As my budget stands around $15-20k, I originally wanted to get a ideal cut hearts/arrows 1.5ct online D-F color VS1. But it now seems that she really likes the Cartier one a lot and is even willing to settle for the 0.90 carat. It still looks stunning.

The 0.90 ballerine was around $18-20k. If I wanted to go bigger to a 1.25 or maybe even 1.5, I would have to sacrifice quite a bit of color. Maybe down to a 'H' and then VS2. The only thing I wouldn't sacrifice for is the cut, which still must be excellent to me. I'm surprised Cartier makes D to J color they said as Harry Winston only makes D to F colors.

Again, she's still perfectly fine with me getting a custom one. But she has said she wants a split-shank if it's custom or Ballerine one if it was going to be Cartier. Finally, she said she doesn't want a knock-off Ballerine setting either.

Thanks for your help everyone! I will have a lot of researching to do still.
 
If that's the case yes I'd drop down to at least an I VS2... Also just be careful to get the angles and information about the cut. Not all excellent cuts are created equal. Some do perform better than others. And sense they won't provide you idealscope images, make sure to use your eyes and look carefully.
 
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