Need Some Feedback on this 1.37 Carat Diamond

[TXEngagement]

Hello PriceScope fam,

I am having a bit of analysis paralysis when it comes to choosing a diamond. I have spent as much time as a layman can trying to get educated, but the experience of knowing how aset, idealscope, proportions, etc. translate into diamond performance when it hits your eye is something I just can't replicate. So I need the experts.

Looking for your feedback and thoughts.

My qualifications for choose a diamond (in order of priority)

1. Budget: Under $10K (ring included) +/- 10% flexibility.
2. Cut- I want as ideal of a cut as I can find within ~2-3 month time frame (with all other qualifications maximized). This is where my analysis paralysis is coming from. I love symmetry and perfection (as close as I can get to it in a natural diamond) and value light performance as the number 1 quality of the diamond I pick.
3. Carat- Trying to maximize this while meeting the other criteria.
4. Quality- VS2 - VS1 (picked based off of the fact I don't particularly want to see imperfections, or pay for quality I can't appreciate).
5. Color- This diamond is going in a yellow gold ring, likely https://www.whiteflash.com/engageme...-solitaire-engagement-ring-by-vatche-3784.htm From my readings, I'm likely looking for an 'I' color and up. I'm hesitant to go much lower, but that is mostly from lack of knowledge to the contrary. I don't think my lady would appreciate much warmth, however I know my obsession with cut will help here.

I went ahead and bought this diamond (last one I liked was sold within hours of me finding it)
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-6054166

Things I like about it:

• Fit the general proportions of a super ideal cut that I have read.
• Crown and pavilion angles are complimentary.
• Good looking, symmetrical light performance map in the AGS report (aside from the larger "less bright" regions at 4 and 9 o'clock.) I read an article on painting and digging that may explain this? How much will this really impact light performance?
• Hoping the cluster of inclusions for a VS1 wont be visible to the eye... guess I'll find this out here in a few days.
• Should I be concerned about the natural inclusion on the edge of the diamond?

Big open question: Is this going to be a high performing diamond and generally a great choice for <$9000 ish that meets the above criteria and preferences. Are there others out there that may be even better and I should just be more patient? As I said, I have around 2-3 months of time I can sit on the sidelines to get a better fit for my preferences if this forum gives me feedback in that direction.

Thanks,

J

 

[TXEngagement]

Also, don't let the fact that I bought it impact giving objective feedback. I have no emotional attachment, strictly a pragmatic move.

 

[Stephan]

The natural is not a concern (it is not a crack, just something that was not polished away from the girdle), like you I'm more nervous about the inclusions inside the table.
My guess is it will be visible, BUT only if you have very good eyes, if you know where to look and from a very close distance. In other circumstances, it will be eye clean. Did you ask JA about eye clean?
The proportions are great, the 62.3 depth will not impact the beauty, only the spread.
Thin to slightly thick is also OK for the girdle, not really a concern, look at the ASET.
And that's OK if you paid less than other ideal brands.
It should be full of fire.
The "I" tint looks like a great one, compare it with other "I" diamonds on the JA website and you will notice that this stone is very bright. Some diamonds will look whiter but darker. This one has a tint, but it's a bright crystal.

 

[Stephan]

And the price sounds very good, saw some I-VS2 branded diamonds that were $1,000 more, so...

 

[TXEngagement]

Thank you much for the thoughtful feedback. JA did say it was eye clean. Your description of the conditions under which you could see the inclusions would likely pass my personal test for eye clean. I really appreciate your response and taking the time to help out.

 

[Stephan]

You are welcome!
I think you bought a very nice stone, and I love the color/clarity combo + high crown + small table.

 

[Stephan]

PS: the inclusions seem to be very near the surface of the table. Try some strong lighting and look at the arrows when tilting the diamond. I guess it will be acceptable, because it's a VS1, so it really should be eye clean (standard definition). I think it's a keeper. I would only return it if the inclusions were visible while looking at the "glare" of the table facet.

 

[Stephan]

Sorry for multiple posts, but I want to explain last thing I wrote.
The table is a facet that in my opinion should be flawless.
If an internal inclusion is so close to the surface that it almost looks external (without magnification of course), if there is visible surface graining (not mentioned here so there normally won't be graining) on the table, if a corner is abraded, I pass. Of course, these things seen with a loupe can be OK (or not if you are picky), but not with the naked eye.

 

[CareBear]

Given that this stone is a VS1, I doubt you will see that inclusion under the table without magnification. Try shrinking the spinning stone to 4x size, and the inclusion is no longer visible. You’ll be seeing it at 1x.

 

[Stephan]

Given that this stone is a VS1, I doubt you will see that inclusion under the table without magnification. Try shrinking the spinning stone to 4x size, and the inclusion is no longer visible. You’ll be seeing it at 1x.

I don't say the inclusion will be visible or not, but making the image smaller is not a proof that the the inclusion is not visible, because the resolution is too low, our eyes are much better than that (at least I hope so )

 

[TXEngagement]

This is super interesting information Stephan and CareBear. I will have the diamond here in a few days. Any other recommended visible eye tests I should do? Lighting conditions? Angles? etc.

 

[Stephan]

Just check it outside, indoors diffuse and strong lighting.
If the color and clarity are OK with you, then it's great.
ASET shows us that there is nothing else to worry about.

 

[sledge]

I tried posting this earlier and it failed. Been rather busy, so had a hard time circling back before now.

-----------

The proportions are amazing. The small 54.8 table and steep 35.1 crown paired with a very complimentary 40.6 pavilion will throw lots of fire. Some very minor imperfections exist in the hearts image, but overall is quite nice.

While I never like to see inclusions on the table, I really don’t think they will be an issue with VS1 clarity. Remember, on the computers we live in a land of magnification. Nice thing about JA videos is you can shrink them down from full magnification to none. Below are some screen caps I tried to capture to illustrate my point. At 20x, you can see the inclusions pretty well when the arrow isn’t in contrast. When I zoom down to 5x or so, it’s a non-issue.

Remember, stone clarity is graded on 10x magnification at the labs.

I think overall, this stone packs quite a punch for the price point. The tint of the I is very discretionary. From a top down view, the stone should be very white. As it rotates we catch that warm buttery hue that so many love. Obviously the more exposed the pavilion is in a setting the more visible that tint will become, just as the less visible the pavilion is the less obvious the tint.

Since you indicate your girl may not appreciate warmth, I would recommend you utilize WG tips with the YG shank. Also, is the YG your idea or hers? I only ask because WG or platinum seems to be a more popular choice and people seem to have strong feelings about the color.

Maybe this link would help a little more?

https://www.laurenbjewelry.com/blog/colored-golds-and-its-effect-on-diamond-color/

My final thoughts are rather simplistic. What are your future upgrade plans? I ask only because JA requires you spend 2x the original purchase price to get the full value of your original stone. Some of the other super ideal vendors like WF and HPD/CBI only require you spend $1 more to get your full value back. This may seem silly, but if you buy an I and it’s too warm for her and you have the stone 2-3 months before you present then the 30 day return window has expired and your choices are fairly limited unless you have a more flexible upgrade policy.

Also, does JA have Vatche bands? While you can certainly use different vendors for the stone and setting it is more hassle and there is some risk. For instance, if WF sets an outside stone, you sign a liability waiver releasing them from any damage caused during the setting process. It's rare it happens and WF is great, but it's still a risk of sorts and you'd be wise to have an insurance policy in-place just in case.

 

[sledge]

FYI, here are some options from WF.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/compare.aspx?idnos=3956075,4001980,4060821

Two of these are ACA's and one is a Premium Select (PS), which means it barely missed the ACA requirements. In this case I think it's because the depth is 62.4, whereas ACA's require 62 or less. I might add PS stones are GIA certified and not AGS certified. But looking at the ASET, idealscope and H&A images, we can see the stone is rather magnificent and has great proportions (55 table, 34.5 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 75 LGF).

FYI, WF also has a series called Expert Select (ES) that is also a near ACA miss, but has AGS certification. None of the stones I listed are ES stones.

Regardless, the same lifetime upgrade policies apply to ACA, PS and ES stones.

https://www.whiteflash.com/a-cut-above-diamonds-specifications-and-qualifications/
https://www.whiteflash.com/premium-select-diamonds/
https://www.whiteflash.com/expert-selection-diamonds/
https://www.whiteflash.com/confidence/lifetime-trade-up-guarantee/

 

[Stephan]

ACA is always good, and the upgrade policy is great.
However, in this particular case, and IF the VS1 is eye clean, I would go for JA.
Perfect ASET, small table, high crown, low price.
If upgrade is important, then ACA.

 

[Golden_bird]

I am in a similar situation as you are ! With similar budget and stone size ! I was also thinking about future posible upgrades and what should I choose ,lower price or overpay for better upgrades . But the thing is I don’t know if I would ever be comfortable with running around with a ring worth 15-20 thousands . So I don’t think I would ever upgrade . If I become rich lol , I think I will be able to purchase a new ring without thinking much I don’t wanna be scared to wear a ring or hide it in a jewelry box somewhere. I would like to enjoy it every day .def you can purchase insurance , but I think I pay tons of bills already (car insurance, cat insurance ,house insurance,flood insurance health insurance and the funny part is when it comes to cover something , they always find a fine print and it’s not covered )and when my children will get older -more expenses on dance classes , music , never ending donations in schools , colleges who knows what . Maybe I would be tired of diamonds and will not be interested in them anymore , like with lots of hobbies ? Who knows what gonna happen in the fiture . I prefer to have some extra thousands on my account now . Well I guess I lost in my thoughts lol and change the subject

 

[TXEngagement]

Sledge, thank you so much for a thoughtful response! This forum is a great one. Glad you found the downtime to get it up

Since you indicate your girl may not appreciate warmth, I would recommend you utilize WG tips with the YG shank. Also, is the YG your idea or hers? I only ask because WG or platinum seems to be a more popular choice and people seem to have strong feelings about the color.

That one is all her's hah. I appreciate the WG tips comment, I've been looking at many a ring and was trying to decide on that point. Your linked article was very helpful, specifically the misconception on ring color and a warmer diamond. Knowing my girlfriend, when I talk to her about color, her head goes straight to thinking her diamond is going to be as yellow as a school bus haha.

I imagine that an 'I', that faces up bright with a yellow gold ring + WG tips will be more than enough to change her mind.

My final thoughts are rather simplistic. What are your future upgrade plans? I ask only because JA requires you spend 2x the original purchase price to get the full value of your original stone. Some of the other super ideal vendors like WF and HPD/CBI only require you spend $1 more to get your full value back. This may seem silly, but if you buy an I and it’s too warm for her and you have the stone 2-3 months before you present then the 30 day return window has expired and your choices are fairly limited unless you have a more flexible upgrade policy.

She's the type that won't want the upgrade. She's already expressed that the first diamond is the last diamond from a sentimental POV. But this is super helpful for anyone that may be in this boat, and I appreciate you bringing that up.

Also, does JA have Vatche bands? While you can certainly use different vendors for the stone and setting it is more hassle and there is some risk. For instance, if WF sets an outside stone, you sign a liability waiver releasing them from any damage caused during the setting process. It's rare it happens and WF is great, but it's still a risk of sorts and you'd be wise to have an insurance policy in-place just in case.

Would have never thought about this. Man this forum is a great place. The big sticking point her is ring thickness. JA for this size diamond only offer 2mm+ that I've seen (I'd love to be corrected).

I'd likely buy this ring on the spot if I find out it can hold the diamond size. Would love your opinion on this thickness with the diamond size, and if there is anything I need to think about here... I only got educated up on the diamond side, now I need to figure this ring thing out haha.

https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...d-15mm-comfort-fit-engagement-ring-item-41515


Thanks again!

J

 

[TXEngagement]

I am in a similar situation as you are ! With similar budget and stone size ! I was also thinking about future posible upgrades and what should I choose ,lower price or overpay for better upgrades . But the thing is I don’t know if I would ever be comfortable with running around with a ring worth 15-20 thousands . So I don’t think I would ever upgrade . If I become rich lol , I think I will be able to purchase a new ring without thinking much I don’t wanna be scared to wear a ring or hide it in a jewelry box somewhere. I would like to enjoy it every day .def you can purchase insurance , but I think I pay tons of bills already (car insurance, cat insurance ,house insurance,flood insurance health insurance and the funny part is when it comes to cover something , they always find a fine print and it’s not covered )and when my children will get older -more expenses on dance classes , music , never ending donations in schools , colleges who knows what . Maybe I would be tired of diamonds and will not be interested in them anymore , like with lots of hobbies ? Who knows what gonna happen in the fiture . I prefer to have some extra thousands on my account now . Well I guess I lost in my thoughts lol and change the subject

I literally love this post and also feel like I need a cigarette after reading this. Odd thing is I don't smoke. Haha, thanks for commenting Golden_Bird and good luck in your search!

 

[Stephan]

@TXEngagement She already found her beautiful diamond. High crown like yours!

 

[kmoro]

A note on the ring - 2 mm is still quite thin and lovely!

 

[TXEngagement]

Thanks Kmoro! I'm guessing she's picturing smaller thickness = nice dainty look + bigger diamond appearance for a solitaire... and she's not wrong per se. However it would also be good if the diamond stayed on the ring as well. I worry about structural issues if we go down too far, and imagine that is why JA only has mostly 2mm+.

 

[Golden_bird]

I literally love this post and also feel like I need a cigarette after reading this. Odd thing is I don't smoke. Haha, thanks for commenting Golden_Bird and good luck in your search!

Hahaha who knows what will happen In 5 -10 years . 15 years ago we even didn’t have smartphones .and look how advanced we became ? I am in my early 30s, ok I will 32 in April . My children are 4 and 2 . If I will be able to possible upgrade ,it will be like in 10 years ? Who knows if whiteflash will exist then ? Maybe manmade diamonds will take the world and they stop at all mining natural ... lots of thoughts and yeah ! I just purchased the diamond with Almost same parameters even pavilion /crown hight ) I also had and still have lots of doubts,but the thought of sending it back ,makes me sad . And I don’t wanna look for something else . Again do all those analysis, wait for pictures ,spend hours searching instead of read a fairytale to my kids.

 

[Golden_bird]

@TXEngagement She already found her beautiful diamond. High crown like yours!

Thank you for your help !! and helping me making a decision kisses kissses

 

[sledge]

Sledge, thank you so much for a thoughtful response! This forum is a great one. Glad you found the downtime to get it up

You're very welcome. I genuinely enjoy helping people and glad you found this useful.

I imagine, knowing my girlfriend, when I talk to her about color, her head goes straight to thinking her diamond is going to be as yellow as a school bus haha.

LOL, it's my pet peeve when people call warmer stones "yellow". Its just so far from the truth, at least in this color range. There is slight tint at best.

Oddly enough when buying I underestimated my fiancee's ability to see color. I went with an H VS2 with medium fluor. AGS certified BGD stone. It's very white but the pavilion is very exposed. She sees the tint easily but is not bothered by it. Here are some pics for reference.

She's the type that won't want the upgrade. She's already expressed that the first diamond is the last diamond from a sentimental POV. But this is super helpful for anyone that may be in this boat, and I appreciate you bringing that up.

Remember if you wait 2-3 months to propose, your 30 day return/refund period will have expired. So after presenting you'd have no way to swap out for a different stone if she didn't like it for any reason. A couple of ways to combat this:

• Ask JA for an extended return period. They may not offer one, or they may charge you a small fee for doing so.
• Buy a stone from a vendor like I mentioned earlier. In your case, the primary benefit is you don't have to worry yourself with a 30 day return period. The side benefit is you get a lifetime opportunity for a trade up that is hassle free, which you may or may not ever decide to exercise. Remember, people do change their minds as they mature so it may be a nice option.
• Move up the proposal so you are within the standard 30 day return period that JA offers.

Would have never thought about this. Man this forum is a great place. The big sticking point her is ring thickness. JA for this size diamond only offer 2mm+ that I've seen (I'd love to be corrected).

I'd likely buy this ring on the spot if I find out it can hold the diamond size. Would love your opinion on this thickness with the diamond size, and if there is anything I need to think about here... I only got educated up on the diamond side, now I need to figure this ring thing out haha.

https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...d-15mm-comfort-fit-engagement-ring-item-41515


Thanks again!

J

I personally think there is a night & day difference between the Vatche and JA settings. For just a second ignore the band width.

Notice how the the band tapers in towards the diamond? This will in effect make the stone look bigger.



Now, look at the head that holds the diamond. The JA setting uses what we call a "peg head" and in this case it consists of 4 prongs (as opposed to 6 prongs) that all combine to a single attachment point. That attaches to the top of the ring. In comparison, the Vatche uses shoulders (shown in purple) and has multiple connection points (shown in red). Lastly, the basket itself (shown in blue) is way more eloquent.

And about those prongs....6 secures the stone better, plus it gives a more round illusion than a 4 prong setting.

All these things combined and I hope you can see there is a considerable difference between the rings. Not to mention just the smoothness of the main shank compared to the more clunky feel of the JA shank.

Lastly, the actual width. Many recommend a minimum 2mm for structural integrity, which is pretty thin; however, several have a more skinny shank (1.65+ usually). In the pictures above of my fiancee, the pave portion of the band is 1.70mm. However, to be honest I wouldn't have any qualms with the thickness coming from Vatche.

FWIW, I have heard some negative comments about this particular style. The main complaint being the ring wasn't comfortable to wear. I can't personally comment on that as I am a guy and never worn one. I do know the style is one of my favorite, so maybe others can comment more on the wearability. Of course, if your SO has seen and tried one on and liked it, that may be a moot point.

 

[TXEngagement]

Sledge- it's so great that you brought up Vatche. Those were instantly the rings that my girlfriend picked out as we were scrolling through the broader solitaire search on WF without having any prejudice. Your comment on quality is very apparent, ESPECIALLY when I look at the recently made rings for actual photos. The JA rings would definitely not meet my standards for workmanship. Thank you very much for pointing me in that direction. Likely to be my final choice, but will have some more looking to ensure so.

I hear you loud and clear on the return policy, and will definitely keep that in mind as I make my final decision on ring here in the next few days.

Again, your responses are so thoughtful and amazingly helpful, I can't thank you enough. P.s. the ring you chose looks fantastic! Thanks for sharing.

-J

 

[Stephan]

So you are awaiting the JA diamond, and you will set it in a WF setting.
You could already post some WF diamonds if it appears you are not satisfied with the JA diamond.

 

[TXEngagement]

@Stephan Hah! I will post a few when I have time, but it may not be until tonight. Although I am still very optimistic on the JA diamond

 

[TXEngagement]

@Stephan, question for you... as I may or may not be continuing my search come tomorrow.

Potentially found a competing diamond with similar, however different, geometry that falls just outside of the super ideal range I have heard defined by the forums. HCA tool takes brilliance and scintillation down on this new diamond from excellent to very good, leaving fire very high (although I've understood that to really just be accurate up until a point). Are we still looking at a high performing diamond with the new specs, all else being equal? My eyes are seeing a little more light loss inside the diamond from the scope image.

Current 1.37 Carat Diamond
HCA Rating 1.1:
Depth: 62.3
Table %:54.8
Crown <:35.1
Pav Angle: 40.6

New Diamond I'm curious about:
HCA Rating: 1.8
Depth: 62.3
Table %: 55.5
Crown <: 35.4
Pav <: 40.7

Pics below

 

[Stephan]

Hi TX, yes it is also a nice diamond, but first one looks brighter.
This one is a little on the steep side, yet still very nice.
Is it the clarity of first diamond that makes you look for another one?
As the first one is a VS1, there should normally be no issue.
And if there was an issue, it would probably be easier to look at WF diamonds, because you want one of their setting.

 

[TXEngagement]

There's no issue with the clarity, and this sucker is amazingly bright and beautiful, and talkkkkk about fire... however the size may be a bit smaller than I was expecting if I'm being very honest. Maybe looking to step up the carats (and also the price). I do have flexibility in my budget. I'm looking more for value here than anything, which I feel my original diamond captured very well. I'm having trouble with the premium on WF for that reason.