Need PS Expert Opinion on Princess Please

[mernst21]

I am looking at this princess cut diamond and need some ps experts opinions.

Details:

GIA
5.8-5.78 x 4.06 mm
1.12 carat
E
VS1
Cut Grade: Ex
Polish: Ex
Symmetry: Ex
Flourescence: None
Depth: 70.2%
Table: 68%
Crown Angle: 33 to 35
Pavillion Angle: 45 to 52
Culet: None
Girdle: thin to medium
$5600

 

[mernst21]

Another pic

 

[mernst21]

Another

 

[mernst21]

idealscope

 

[mernst21]

Another idealscope

 

[John P]

Nicely square.

GIA did not issue an 'EX' cut grade for this stone; they only assign cut grades for round brilliant. Who gave it EX in cut?
Also, the blue photos were taken in a Hearts & Arrows viewer. This is useful for seeing precision but not for determining light performance.

 

[mernst21]

Thanks for the response John,

The EX cut is a typo, copied and pasted and forgot to delete. GIA says Square Modified Brilliant.

Regarding the blue images... I thought that they were wrong and not idealscope images, so they obviously gave me the wrong thing.

What is your take on the measurements? They told me they could not get a sarin report, so they had an employee who formerly worked for GIA take measurements and estimate the crown and pavillion angles.

I have emailed the supplier asking for the actual idealscope images, but probably won''t receive them until Monday. I will post then.

Thanks for any feedback provided, as I am obviously clueless

 

[jstarfireb]

Well, I'm no expert, but I like princesses, so I'll chime in. From the pics, it looks very nice. Nicely square, a pretty facet pattern, great symmetry, good spread. Price is not bad at all for the specs. You could certainly go down a few color and clarity grades to save some cash, though. The only thing missing would be a more objective measure of light performance, preferably an ASET picture, but IS would also help. Also, I'm not sure why the crown and pavilion angles are listed as ranges...but those numbers aren't all that important for fancy shapes.

So overall, based on what we can see, it looks pretty nice.

 

[mernst21]

Thanks for the input. I was told they could not provide me with an ASET image, so don''t think I will be able to go off of that.

After reading through many posts, I sort of got the impression that the crown and pavillion angles are really important, am I wrong to assume this?

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 12/12/2008 7:56:11 PM
Author: mernst21
Thanks for the input. I was told they could not provide me with an ASET image, so don't think I will be able to go off of that.

After reading through many posts, I sort of got the impression that the crown and pavilion angles are really important, am I wrong to assume this?

Crown and Pavilion angles are only important for round cuts as the HCA can use that to predict round cut's performance. For princess, there are multiple pavilions, so you need more than just the angles to do predictions and there is no equivalent HCA to do the predictions except some proprietary software use by professionals.

So the use of IS/ASET is the simplest way to judge the performance for princess.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/12/2008 7:56:11 PM
Author: mernst21
Thanks for the input. I was told they could not provide me with an ASET image, so don''t think I will be able to go off of that.

After reading through many posts, I sort of got the impression that the crown and pavillion angles are really important, am I wrong to assume this?

The angles are used by those of us here for round diamonds, Princess angles are more complex and this type of analysis is usually done by the more expert or experts. Detailed photographs and images such as ASET are more valuable for the consumer.

 

[mernst21]

I see, well I will try and obtain those images and post them when I get them. I guess what do you think of the other measurements (i.e. table and depth)?

When I was looking at the pricescope princess GIA chart, it was showing the ideal diamond to have very low (50% to 60%) table and depth, and the US average diamond to be 60 to 70. Does this mean the lower the percentages, the better?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/13/2008 11:22:44 AM
Author: mernst21
I see, well I will try and obtain those images and post them when I get them. I guess what do you think of the other measurements (i.e. table and depth)?

When I was looking at the pricescope princess GIA chart, it was showing the ideal diamond to have very low (50% to 60%) table and depth, and the US average diamond to be 60 to 70. Does this mean the lower the percentages, the better?

No, I wish it were that simple but regrettably it isn't. With Princess and other fancy shapes, all depth and table will give you is a chalk outline and no meaningful info on how well the diamond is cut, and thus how beautiful it will be etc. There are other very important factors to be considered. The best way to proceed ( unless you go for AGS0 cut grade Princess which should be a safer bet) is to use the numbers suggested by a reliable chart as a guide, then get photographs, ASET and Idealscope images if possible on each diamond. The depth and table given in this instance look to be within acceptable range but really it doesn't tell us anything else.

 

[mernst21]

So I was told they could not provide me with an idealscope image, have questioned why and waiting on response. They told me they accidentally used a Proportion Scope. The difference between the two are one light enters from the top of the scope(the pictures above) and the other light enters from the bottom. The color does not make much difference, the principal is that once you surround the Diamond in a single color(in their case blue) you will be able to easily tell how light move through the Diamond.

Is this true, can you tell the light performance from the pics above? Definitely need help on this as I have no clue.

Thanks in advance

 

[John P]

Date: 12/15/2008 3:23:55 PM
Author: mernst21
So I was told they could not provide me with an idealscope image, have questioned why and waiting on response. They told me they accidentally used a Proportion Scope. The difference between the two are one light enters from the top of the scope(the pictures above) and the other light enters from the bottom. The color does not make much difference, the principal is that once you surround the Diamond in a single color(in their case blue) you will be able to easily tell how light move through the Diamond.

Is this true, can you tell the light performance from the pics above? Definitely need help on this as I have no clue.

Thanks in advance

Untrue. The proportions scope (another name for a H&A viewer) shows cut precision but does not code light according to where it's drawn from and where it's going. You can get a sense of contrast patterning in the crown view by looking at the white areas, but all other light - whether intense light return, reflected light or leakage, is cloaked in blue. No useful information.

The ideal-scope is illuminated beneath. This means you see clearly where the pavilion facets may be functioning as windows (leakage) rather than mirrors because you see those light areas clearly. Meanwhile the light entering the diamond from the red areas returns to the eye still colored red because it reflected from the pavilion - it did not leak out. The obstruction pattern is also more standardized, so you see contrast (black/obstruction), light return (red) and leakage (white).

The best tool for fancy shapes is ASET. It takes light return that would be red in an ideal-scope and further breaks it into intense light coming in from the all-important 45-75 degree range (red) and reflected/indirect light coming in from the 0-45 degree range.

In simple terms the proportions scope (or H&A viewer) is good for viewing precision.
The Ideal-scope is good for viewing performance in rounds.
The ASET is better for viewing performance in fancy shapes.

While precision and performance are both aspects of CUT, performance the most important in the big picture.

 

[strmrdr]

Here is the problem.
It looks dark to me, to much obstruction in the regular pictures.
Is it the stone or the photo setup?
No way to tell not having seen a reference image with a know degree of obstruction.
I would not buy it without a IS or ASET image with a known obstruction reference.

 

[John P]

Date: 12/15/2008 4:18:18 PM
Author: strmrdr
Here is the problem.
It looks dark to me, to much obstruction in the regular pictures.
Is it the stone or the photo setup?
No way to tell not having seen a reference image with a know degree of obstruction.
I would not buy it without a IS or ASET image with a known obstruction reference.

Likely the camera lens held too close in the tweezer shots Strm.

Standard 4" H&A viewers approximate obstruction of handheld IS. The contrast pattern in the crown view isn't nearly as obscured in the scope as the tweezers. Different story if it's a 2.5" scope.

I agree with the bottom line but you knew that.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/15/2008 4:25:02 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 12/15/2008 4:18:18 PM

Author: strmrdr

Here is the problem.

It looks dark to me, to much obstruction in the regular pictures.

Is it the stone or the photo setup?

No way to tell not having seen a reference image with a know degree of obstruction.

I would not buy it without a IS or ASET image with a known obstruction reference.

Likely the camera lens held too close in the tweezer shots Strm.


Standard 4' H&A viewers approximate obstruction of handheld IS. The contrast pattern in the crown view isn't nearly as obscured in the scope as the tweezers. Different story if it's a 2.5' scope.


I agree with the bottom line but you knew that.

Hey sir John I took that into consideration, there is just to much variation in h&a scopes to use it for a reference as you noted.
Some people use the hand held with the lens removed for photos also, there is no way to tell.
To many questions are not answered for me to say buy it.

 

[mernst21]

Well I talked to them (Union Diamond) over the phone and they basically told me they don''t have an idealscope because they go along with GIA standards, which do not look at idealscope images to assess a diamond. He said he would take some better pictures for me, in addition to some with a red proportion scope, which directs light from underneath the diamond. To me this situation sounds weird as this is a reputable dealer heavily mentioned on pricescope. He tried assuring me that this diamond is superb and has been searching and cannot find a diamond as good as this one. He also mentioned I have a 30 day return period if I don''t like it.

So do you guys know if there are places to take a diamond to to have them take idealscope or aset images, maybe a commercial supplier such as jared?

 

[JulieN]

Date: 12/15/2008 8:22:45 PM
Author: mernst21
Well I talked to them (Union Diamond) over the phone and they basically told me they don''t have an idealscope because they go along with GIA standards, which do not look at idealscope images to assess a diamond. He said he would take some better pictures for me, in addition to some with a red proportion scope, which directs light from underneath the diamond. To me this situation sounds weird as this is a reputable dealer heavily mentioned on pricescope. He tried assuring me that this diamond is superb and has been searching and cannot find a diamond as good as this one. He also mentioned I have a 30 day return period if I don''t like it.


So do you guys know if there are places to take a diamond to to have them take idealscope or aset images, maybe a commercial supplier such as jared?

It looks really nice. I get what strm is saying, that it looks dark, but I also think that might be because of the camera...too close. No way for us to tell.

You can either buy your own Ideal Scope or send it to an appraiser that has one. Regarding ASET, maybe you can find an AGS jeweler in your area and call to see if they have an ASET.

 

[mernst21]

So I received the wire transfer instructions from UD, just to see the process and it has the transfer going through 3 bank accounts, ending up at one owned by ANGLO HOLDINGS LIMITED, has anyone encountered this and done the wire transfer through UD? Is it safe or am I better off using a credit card if I wind up purchasing this diamond?

 

[John P]

Date: 12/15/2008 8:29:24 PM
Author: JulieN

It looks really nice. I get what strm is saying, that it looks dark, but I also think that might be because of the camera...too close. No way for us to tell.

Ditto. UD is an established company.

In response to the statement about GIA standards: Since GIA has no cut grading system for princess cuts that seems misapplied here, but I presume they mean they visually examine the diamonds for performance themselves. This is no different than a lot of dealers in the mainstream. The internet is a different animal than commercial stores where you can eyeball the goods along with them. Nothing wrong with the "trust us" approach, but no one should be surprised that it has less teeth than the practice of showing the degree of light performance using ideal-scope or ASET, upon which the AGS cut grading system (which also applies to princess cuts) is based.

There are some top independent appraisers who post on Pricescope. Several include Ideal-Scope and ASET in their evaluations. Many PS members have had goods sent directly to them from the seller for a third-party evaluation and insurance documentation. This is always a possibility to consider.

 

[mernst21]

Thanks, I think I will for sure get a third party evaluation of the diamond no matter what.

So how about the wire transfer situation...does anyone know if UD is owned by ANGLO HOLDINGS LIMITED? I just want to make sure my money isn''t going through a few bank accounts to some guy''s offshore account, making it hard to trace. I have also tried searching for the representative''s name at UD through pricescope, but have had no luck finding anyone who has dealed with him, which is why I am having the skepticism I am.

Also, for anyone who has dealt with UD, were you able to obtain idealscope images, at the least, from them or is UD telling me the truth that they cannot provide these?

Thanks for all the responses thus far

 

[JulieN]

UD is not willing to provide Ideal Scope pictures. Which is very different from they cannot provide Ideal Scope pictures.

Since PS members are not their primary customers...or even a significant amount of their customers, it is not surprising that they have no desire to provide IS pics...I mean, it's clear they don't even know what an Ideal Scope is.

No idea about the Anglo Holdings, but they are a very established jewelry store.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

So, let me get this clear.

First, they give you pictures in the ideal-scope.
Then, when you tell them these are not IS-pics, they tell you that they accidentally used a Proportion-scope, which should show the same.
Then, when you tell them that it does not show the same, they tell you that they do not have an idealscope, and that they go along GIA-standards.

The problem is that there are no GIA-standards for princess-cuts.

Looking at the other data supplied, I do wonder what this means:

"Crown Angle: 33 to 35
Pavillion Angle: 45 to 52"

Are these measurements or estimates? By whom?

Live long,

 

[mernst21]

Yes, that is pretty much the situation. I am supposed to receive additional pictures this morning, so I will post once I get them. The angle ranges are due to an estimate by one of their GIA specialists who used to be a Diamond Grader for GIA in Carlsbad. They said they could not give me exact measurements because they do not have all of the equipment the GIA laboratory has, so it has to be a range.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 12/16/2008 9:41:55 AM
Author: mernst21
Yes, that is pretty much the situation. I am supposed to receive additional pictures this morning, so I will post once I get them. The angle ranges are due to an estimate by one of their GIA specialists who used to be a Diamond Grader for GIA in Carlsbad. They said they could not give me exact measurements because they do not have all of the equipment the GIA laboratory has, so it has to be a range.

So, in order to summarize:

First, they give you pictures in the ideal-scope.
Then, when you tell them these are not IS-pics, they tell you that they accidentally used a Proportion-scope, which should show the same.
Then, when you tell them that it does not show the same, they tell you that they do not have an idealscope, and that they go along GIA-standards.
The problem is that there are no GIA-standards for princess-cuts.

And finally, part of the measurements listed are actually very broad estimates of an employee.

Knowing all that, can you trust these words: ''this diamond is superb and have been searching and cannot find a diamond as good as this one.'' ?

Live long,

 

[mernst21]

A picture with the Red proportion scope. He keeps reassuring me "I have seen many Princess Cut Diamonds and I can say with much confidence that the 1.12 ct that you are considering is a great find. I would honestly be shocked if you received it and had a single concern." What do you think?

 

[mernst21]

Any comments? Planning on making a decision today, any opinions would be appreciated.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/16/2008 1:54:43 PM
Author: mernst21
A picture with the Red proportion scope. He keeps reassuring me 'I have seen many Princess Cut Diamonds and I can say with much confidence that the 1.12 ct that you are considering is a great find. I would honestly be shocked if you received it and had a single concern.' What do you think?

pic doesn't tell us anything we didn't know and doesn't answer the question.

I know what I would do.... tell em something along the lines of take a long hike on a short pier over shark infested waters,,, then find a different vendor.
To many red flags and a lack of information.