shape
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Need help with this diamond urgently!

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by 1amaN00b, Feb 5, 2019.

  1. 1amaN00b
    Rough_Rock

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    by 1amaN00b » Feb 5, 2019
    2.png

    Hi everyone! I need to make a decision on this diamond while I'm waiting on the idealscope to come back. Please let me know if this is a good diamond for $11k! I'm sure all of you experts can help me make a decision while I wait for the idealscope.

    This 1.41 Carat Round diamond G Color IF Clarity has Excellent proportions and a diamond grading report from GIA
    Shape: Round
    carat weight: 1.41
    color: G
    clarity: IF
    cut: Excellent
    polish: Excellent
    symmetry: Excellent
    Fluorescence: Strong
    l/w/d (mm): 7.19*7.17*4.46
    l/w ratio: 1.00
    depth %: 62.10
    girdle: Medium - Slightly Thick
    table %: 56.00
    culet: None
    certificate: GIA
    crown ∠: 35.00
    crown %: 15.50
    pavilion ∠: 40.80
    pavilion %: 43.00

    Much appreciate for all the feedback! 1.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
    


    


  2. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Feb 5, 2019
    Is there a reason for IF clarity? You can get a completely eye clean VS stone without paying the IF premium. Is 11k your Max budget? There are some super ideal WF stones in the 11k price point that are 1.3ct (which won't be a noticible size difference since the spread of them is 7.06 or so). And you'd be guaranteed to have an outstanding performer and an amazing upgrade policy. Not everyone wants to go with a super ideal stone, but if you have the budget for it then I'd say go for it.
     
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  3. 1amaN00b
    Rough_Rock

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    by 1amaN00b » Feb 5, 2019
    Actually the budget is a little more but I want to keep it low and it seems like this is the best stone I can find within the $11K price range. I've only been looking on James Allen since the prices are more competitive. I don't want to go lower than 1.4ct since the original requested size was 2ct (out of my price range). If you have any specific links of really good quality diamonds, please let me know!

    Out of curiosity, why wouldn't ppl want an ideal stone? Anything I should know?

    Thanks again!
     
  4. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Feb 5, 2019
    Sorry, I meant not everyone wants to pay the extra for a super ideal stone like from WF or HPD. But Imho they are worth it. Found this one on JA that I like. I usually think their true hearts line is overpriced, but this one looks nice.
    https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...color-vs2-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-6120062

    I would expand your search beyond JA, their prices aren't always the best. Use the pricescope search tool and only look at stones that score "excellent" on the HCA. That will help narrow stuff down a lot.
     
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  5. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Feb 5, 2019
    If you're willing to go with I color (not sure what her color preferences are), these are in budget:

    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3961913.htm?source=pricescope

    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3947657.htm?source=pricescope

    If she originally wanted 2ct, I strongly advise you to go with a vendor who has a generous upgrade policy. Get her the nicest stone you can afford in a simple setting, and then upgrade to 2ct when you are able. That's why WF or HPD would be my vendors of choice if I were you.
     
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  6. 1amaN00b
    Rough_Rock

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    by 1amaN00b » Feb 5, 2019
    Thanks so much! I will look into these! I thought James Allen has a good upgrade policy (2x the original price) as well hence I was focusing on them. Great feedback lovedogs!
     
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  7. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Feb 5, 2019
    2x the original price is pretty rescrictive IMHO. WF/HPD is literally spend $1 more. That's it. No need to wait until you've saved another 11k.

    https://www.whiteflash.com/confidence/lifetime-trade-up-guarantee/

    https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/whyus/whyus-upgrades

    The above are the best upgrade policies of any trusted vendor.
     
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  8. Morenita21
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Morenita21 » Feb 5, 2019
    Personally I think you can get better bang for your buck if you find an eye clean SI1. Also, strong fluorescence with a G color is not usually recommended. I would definitely ask to see a video of the diamond to make sure it doesn’t appear milky or hazy. It could be perfectly fine, but call them and see if they can pull the diamond to appease your mind if you’re set on that particular stone.
     
  9. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Feb 5, 2019
    Bingo, that 2x upgrade requirement gets quite costly later on -- $11k today...then $22k....then $44k....then $88k....then *gulp* $176k. :sick:

    BGD also has a good upgrade policy, but not as generous as WF or HPD. With BGD, you spend $1 more but have to upgrade 2 of 3 following C's: carat weight, clarity or color.

    More importantly, consider the silent factor in an upgrade policy -- the inventory availability of the proposed vendor. If Vendor A has a great policy but limited inventory, then maybe going with Vendor B with a similar policy and larger inventory is more advantageous for you to upgrade over the years. I mention this because you are starting at roughly 1.5 carats, and moving to a 2-3 carat stone over the years is a likely reality. As size increases, inventories decrease with some vendors. So if you are future proofing, be sure to look at all angles. ;)2
     
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  10. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Feb 5, 2019
    I failed to add the rest of my thoughts about the stone you found.

    G color is a good bang for the buck. Still in the colorless range but not overpaying for color as many but not all people can't tell much difference, if any, between higher colors and G.

    IF is overkill on clarity. Sure, if you get it for the right price, but I'm not ever going to seek it out and be willing to pay the premium. Reality is an SI1 from select vendors that vet their stones will yield a great bang for the buck. Probably moving to a VS2+ clarity on virtual inventory would lend an equally rewarding experience.

    Proportionally, the stone has potential. Medium sized 56 table and depth is 62.1. What I cringe about is the steep 35 crown with the somewhat steep 40.8 pavilion. In a super ideal where you have ideal cut precision and true hearts & arrow (H&A) symmetry you see this combination work very well. Unfortunately, in many GIA stones where many times there isn't that quality of faceting then you will see leakage in the ASET and/or idealscope images.

    IMO, you can find more complimentary angle combos that are more of a sure thing for your budget. If the IF is important, that may be hard to replicate. I'd insist on the idealscope image (since JA doesn't do ASET for rounds) before purchasing.

    Also, do you have this stone on reserve? I can't find it. If reserved, you can safely link to it without worry of it being poached, so we can see the video, etc.
     
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  11. 1amaN00b
    Rough_Rock

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    by 1amaN00b » Feb 5, 2019
    Here it is: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-g-color-if-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6491730

    I didn't seek out this particular stone. It just so happens that it's cheaper than the other ones I looked at (min G color, VS2, 1.4ct).

    Now someone here mentioned that it's not ideal to have strong fluorescence with color G and up (might look cloudy). I can decrease the clarity to VS2+ but I don't want to lower the color below G.

    Let me know your thoughts on the stone. I am going to start looking on whiteflash as well.

    Saw this one:
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4080920.htm
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  12. Lykame
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Lykame » Feb 5, 2019
    Put the Whiteflash one on hold (sadly people poach) and double check it's eye clean (their definition is from 10 inches away face up - is that good enough for you? Some are happy with that and some aren't). I haven't looked well enough to see why it didn't make ACA standards but it looks beautiful and has a nice crown and pavilion angle combination and small table. I'm sure @sledge and others could chip in here. That with their upgrade policy and that would be a winner for me.
     
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  13. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Feb 5, 2019
    Flour isn't an issue in like 99% of stones, so I wouldn't worry about that. The WF you posted is nice, although their ES/ACA are usually better performers (overall). Is H color ok with you?
     
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  14. Dancing Fire
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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  15. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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  16. ctsamg
    Rough_Rock

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    by ctsamg » Feb 5, 2019
    If upgrade policy is not important to you, I had very good luck with Martin @ USA Certed diamonds. You'd be surprised what your budget can get you.
     
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  17. Lykame
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Lykame » Feb 5, 2019
    They're restrictive, but not as restrictive as JA I think. JA is X2 the price whereas BGD is upgrade two characteristics... So carat size and colour or carat size and clarity perhaps. I guess it becomes more restrictive if you try and do multiple upgrades - you would have to think more carefully, before you jumped for an upgrade, that you were making the right decision to match with longer term upgrade plans. :geek2:
     
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  18. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Feb 5, 2019
    Good point! That's why I'm hoping OP will stick with WF.

    I think upgrades will be critical, since OP's GF wanted 2cts originally, so they will likely to upgrade in the future.
     
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  19. 1amaN00b
    Rough_Rock

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    by 1amaN00b » Feb 5, 2019
    I'm going with WhiteFlash now! They don't really run promotions (like James Allen's 25% off on settings) unfortunately. I'm open to suggestions on the best a cut above ring around $12K or less (1.4ct, G color, etc). I'm looking right now! You guys are great help!

    By the way, upgrade is important since i'm sure it'll be upgraded down the road!

    Another question - Do you guys prefer GIA or AGS? Is AGS more precise?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  20. ctsamg
    Rough_Rock

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    by ctsamg » Feb 5, 2019
    Using the search tool above, you can find something in the 1.7-1.9 carat range that will be PS quality at that budget. If that's the case, upgrading may not be necessary. But you can't go wrong with Whiteflash either, it just depends if super ideal vs ideal with a larger carat size matters to you. Everyone is a bit different!
     
  21. kal2021
    Brilliant_Rock

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  22. 1amaN00b
    Rough_Rock

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    by 1amaN00b » Feb 6, 2019
    Cool I'll keep looking! Thanks, kal2021! I actually bookmarked one of the stones. If I was to compromise on one "C" to keep the ring within budget. What should it be? From G to H color? or From VS1 to SI1 clarity? Think I'll have to lower to carats for now (looking at 1.3xct)

    Is it beneficial to get the setting from WF as well? I don't like how most settings are 18k and significantly more expensive than James Allen. I am only interested in 14k white gold. I already picked out the setting on JA. I'm trying to find a similar setting like the one below (thinner or narrower towards the diamond).

    https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...e-basket-solitaire-engagement-ring-item-22607
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
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  23. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Feb 6, 2019
    Post some links to these 1.7 to 1.9 carat stones.

    I didn't search all sites but Rare Carat is a pretty good selection as it covers multiple vendors. Plus I like the fact I can really filter the proportions for an ideal cut GIA XXX stone and not a subpar cut.
    • 54-57 table
    • 60-62 depth
    • 34-35 crown
    • 40.6-41 pavilion
    • GIA or AGS certified
    • Thin to thick girdle
    • Strong to None fluor
    First search @ RC, G+ and VS2+

    Capture3.PNG

    Revising search @ RC to include G+ color but lowering clarity to SI1+

    Capture2.PNG


    It seems to me people are usually affected by size and color, more than clarity. That said, I'd want to keep as much color and size as possible, so I would reduce the clarity from VS1+ down to SI1+, especially when shopping with a super ideal vendor like WF.

    Why?

    Because super ideal vendors actually own their stones. Additionally they vet them, meaning they inspect them for inclusions that are harmful to light performance, etc. On stones that aren't eye clean (10" away looking at top with 20/20 vision and good lighting), they state "Inquire" on their website. Additionally, if you see a stone and have concerns, you can call and ask them to pull the stone and have one of their gemologists review the stone for imperfections. They will give you an honest answer, even if it is detrimental to the sale.

    On the flip side, virtual inventory works very different. Guys like JA, BN, FourMine, Enchanted Diamonds, etc are what we call virtual inventory dealers. What this means is a supplier cuts the stones and offers it to multiple vendors. So many times you will see the same stone listed at multiple sites for different prices (savvy buyers uses this as leverage to negotiate the best price & terms for themselves). Whoever sells the stone first gets it. The advantage is these dealers have large inventories, but they are virtual as they don't actually own the stone. They are simply selling stones off a list of AVAILABLE stones. The stones themselves are kept by the supplier (many times overseas) until a vendor calls one in to purchase, and then the supplier ships to the vendor who then ships to you (the end user/buyer). The amount of advanced imagery & video is limited based on the individual relationships & agreements each supplier/vendor has in-place. Also the vendor literally cannot go pull the stone and put their eyes on it and evaluate because it's NOT in their vault. It is located elsewhere. So to get an evaluation, now the supplier has to pull the stone and look. Again, possible but not always convenient or expedient and not always to the level of detail and scrutiny as someone that truly owns and vets their own stones.

    Lastly, yes, WF offers their settings in 18K and 14K. Use the drop down menus to change the metal types.

    https://www.whiteflash.com/engageme...241-solitaire-engagement-ring-3991.htm#size=6

    Capture4.PNG

    WF has a pretty vast amount of settings available, including specialty designers and in-house products both. While their site lists quite a few of them, you can often go to the website of a designer they carry and find even more. Simply write down the model number and ask WF for a quote as they have full access to all models of the designers they carry.

    If possible, I would recommend you get the stone & setting at the same place. It's less headache, plus you don't have to pay any setting fees, etc. However, if the JA setting is "the one" then you can definitely do that option and WF will accommodate you.
     
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  24. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Feb 6, 2019
    Agree with @sledge. Get the setting from WF to avoid issues of shipping, insuring the stone while it's getting set, etc. WF has lots of solitaire settings at good prices in 14k. Not all of them are available in 14k, but most are.
     
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  25. 1amaN00b
    Rough_Rock

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    by 1amaN00b » Feb 6, 2019
    This has been a very useful forum and all your inputs have been great! I actually learned a lot! I will also try to go lower in carats too especially if I can upgrade later. Actually started looking at 1.2ct stones. Her size is btw a 4 and 4.5 (going to go with 4.5 since it will swell up in the summer). Think the stone will not look too small on her finger. Fingers crossed!

    If you happen to see anymore good stones, I'm open to any suggestions! I know for a fact I won't compromise on ACA unless you guys tell me otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  26. whitewave
    Ideal_Rock

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    by whitewave » Feb 6, 2019
    I like the G IF. Good color. Nothing wrong with IF as long as you don’t mind paying for it. I personally don’t mind Fluor and in a G it shouldn’t be an issue (you can get the gemologist to check it).

    But yes, high performance diamonds and Whiteflash have better upgrade policies.
     
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  27. Dancing Fire
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Dancing Fire » Feb 6, 2019
    IMO, GIA and AGS are on par with each other. And, yes AGS is more precise on cut grade.
     
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  28. msop04
    Ideal_Rock

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    by msop04 » Feb 6, 2019
    If you can't decide on which "C" to compromise, then go with clarity. Color can be perceived, "eye clean" is eye clean. FWIW, I would go down to H/SI1 and get the biggest diamond (spread, not carat weight!) you can afford at WF. I have a 3.33 I/SI2 and couldn't be happier! Eye clean SI's are out there - WF will vet them for you.
     
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  29. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Feb 6, 2019
    All these are pretty fantastic:

    WF ACA 1.217 G VS1 @ $11,635
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4037182.htm

    56.5 table, 61.7, 34.4 crown, 40.7 pavilion & 76 LGF's. Measures 6.84 x 6.86.

    Get your color & clarity, while staying within budget. Proportions are lovely. Complete fireball, look at the video. :love:


    WF ACA 1.344 G VS2 @ $12,268
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4059351.htm

    55.4 table, 62 depth, 34.8 crown, 40.7 pavilion & 76 LGF. Measures 7.05 x 7.09mm.

    If you got some flex in your budget then stick a fork in it and call it a done day! Holy fireballs!!! Small 55 table and that steep 34.8 crown paired with very complimentary shallow 40.7 pavilion and fat sexy arrows of 76 LGF is a freakin' stunner! Lots and lots of fire because of the small table and tall crown.

    Trading minor clarity for some bump in size. But really, look at the clarity plot -- it's very clean for a VS2. My personal favorite of the group. :love: :love: :love:


    WF ACA 1.302 F VS2 @ $12,854
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4059383.htm

    56.6 table, 61.6 depth, 34.5 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 76 LGF. Measures 6.99 x 7.04.

    Although carat weight is a little less than the 1.344 G VS2 above, it has a nearly identical spread. You won't even be able to discern a difference. Before people start seeing a size difference, it takes about 0.20mm variance and then it's very minor (about 1/128th inch). Here we are within 0.05mm, so again, not noticeable to the naked eye.

    Medium sized table with that lovely 34.5/40.8 combo. I think the 1.344 is slightly more firey but we are really splitting hairs at this point as the difference is minimal and won't be as exaggerated under normal lighting and with non-magnified views. I would have zero hesitations buying either stone as this one too is a show stopper! For $600 more than the 1.344 you are picking up F color which I love and also it's crazy clean VS2 clarity plot. Truly a great choice, but is really pushing your budget upwards.


    WF ACA 1.334 F VS2 @ $12,675
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4063388.htm

    55.6 table, 61.9 depth, 34.4 crown, 40.7 pavilion & 77 LGF. Measures 7.04 x 7.06.

    Again, nearly identical spread as the two stones above despite the carat weight. Proportions are freakin' amazing. That small table and the 34.4/40.7 is a win, period! Lots of fire! And I love F color at this price point.

    Admittedly I'm a little spoiled with the clarity plots of the prior VS2 stones, so this one isn't as nice for me. It has clouds shown (as the 2nd major inclusion, not grade setting) but it also has a note on the side about additional clouds not shown. When I look at the video, in the magnified view it appears slightly hazy but I seriously doubt you'd see that with the naked eye. WF's site lists as eye clean. Again, I think what I'm seeing is the negative side of magnified views and computers as it's over exaggerating an issue you likely won't see in the flesh & blood. Still, for my own peace of mind, I'd ask WF to pull and verify it's eye clean and there are no hazy/cloudy issues.

    WF 1.378 G VS2 @ $12,406
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4027991.htm

    56.5 table, 60.5 depth, 34.2 crown, 40.7 pavilion & 77 LGF. Measures 7.20 x 7.22.

    This stone has a slightly different personality than some of the others. I personally prefer a smaller table because as the table size decreases, then the the upper girdle facets increase which is where rainbow light (fire) is reflected. The table here is perfectly acceptable and good at 56.5. Where it starts to change is we are now shifting to a shallow 34.2 crown that is offset by a medium steep 40.7 pavilion and 77 LGF's. Shallower crowns exhibit slightly more white light return but because the stone is well balanced and well cut, you can still see that it is very firey. Also, the 77 LGF's will yield slightly narrower arrows (lower LGF = fatter arrows). Additionally smaller LGF equals larger bolder flashes of light return.

    All this changed geometry results in two major things. First, look at the spread -- this stone measures about 0.20mm bigger than the others of similar weight. Bigger table, shallower crown and less depth is responsible for this. Second thing is you get slightly more white light return. Not a huge deal here because the stone is well balanced.

    The stone packs a punch and offers a little more spread making it a great value, despite being a little higher than your initial budget. But if you want max size in a 1.3x carat stone, this is your horse.
     
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  30. 1amaN00b
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