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Need help with engagment diamond(Exchanging for better cut)

Reneli

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
87
Hello everyone,

Posted on here a few days ago and was so surprised when my GIA triple excellent was not a very well-cut stone, it scored a 3.6 on the HCA. Lovedogs posted the ideal specs on my last thread

Table: 54-57
Depth: 60-62.4
Crown: 34-35
Pavillion: 40.6-40.8

Due to budget im in the low 0.9s in terms of carat size. I do want to maximize the size appearance of the diamond but still maintain an ideal cut/ HCA score. So I guess my question is , what proportions would I need to achieve that. Thanks in advance :D
 

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Wewechew

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 8, 2017
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1,765
An ideal cut diamond will appear larger than a badly cut diamond because of the edge to edge brilliance. A well cut .9ct should be around 6.2mm.
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,365
Hello everyone,

Posted on here a few days ago and was so surprised when my GIA triple excellent was not a very well-cut stone, it scored a 3.6 on the HCA. Lovedogs posted the ideal specs on my last thread

Table: 54-57
Depth: 60-62.4
Crown: 34-35
Pavillion: 40.6-40.8

Due to budget im in the low 0.9s in terms of carat size. I do want to maximize the size appearance of the diamond but still maintain an ideal cut/ HCA score. So I guess my question is , what proportions would I need to achieve that. Thanks in advance :D
There are multiple combinations of the above proportions that will balance size and ideal cut. An ideally cut stone will look bigger (and as said above, be about 6.3mm if you are looking at .9).

What is the budget? We can help!
 

Reneli

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
87
There are multiple combinations of the above proportions that will balance size and ideal cut. An ideally cut stone will look bigger (and as said above, be about 6.3mm if you are looking at .9).

What is the budget? We can help!
Unfortunately, I'm exchanging the diamond. I couldn't return it. :( but my budget is around 4,000
I'm gonna send her the above proportions and she is going to shoot me some report numbers to see if i like anything. my current diamond looks bigger than a 9.1, I want to keep that look with a better cut obviously. What would be the best way to phrase this to her?
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,365
Unfortunately, I'm exchanging the diamond. I couldn't return it. :( but my budget is around 4,000
I'm gonna send her the above proportions and she is going to shoot me some report numbers to see if i like anything. my current diamond looks bigger than a 9.1, I want to keep that look with a better cut obviously. What would be the best way to phrase this to her?
What is the mm size of your current diamond?

What I would say to her is that you want to stay within the above parameters, but don't want to sacrifice much in mm size. Carat size isn't what's important (since size can be "invisible" when you have a stone that's too deep), mm size is what our eyes actually see. So tell her you want to stay within .1 or .15mm of your original stone (depending on what the mm of the original stone was).
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,365
Does a larger table play into this?
No. A better cut diamond will appear larger because it will have edge to edge brightness and will sparkle more. But of course a horrible and too deep 1ct diamond could be smaller in face up mm size than a well cut .9 and then the .9 looking bigger would be both about actual face up size AND about cut quality.
 

Reneli

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
87
What is the mm size of your current diamond?

What I would say to her is that you want to stay within the above parameters, but don't want to sacrifice much in mm size. Carat size isn't what's important (since size can be "invisible" when you have a stone that's too deep), mm size is what our eyes actually see. So tell her you want to stay within .1 or .15mm of your original stone (depending on what the mm of the original stone was).
Measurements of the stone are

6.29 - 6.34 x 3.78 mm

So to clarify tell her to stay within .1 or .15mm of 6.29

and stay within these parameters
Table: 54-57
Depth: 60-62.4
Crown: 34-35
Pavillion: 40.6-40.8

also, what would be a fair price for a stone like this? I want to make sure I am getting a decent deal.
 

Reneli

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
87
No. A better cut diamond will appear larger because it will have edge to edge brightness and will sparkle more. But of course a horrible and too deep 1ct diamond could be smaller in face up mm size than a well cut .9 and then the .9 looking bigger would be both about actual face up size AND about cut quality.
also how does one maximize fire over brilliance?
 

moneymeister

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
1,194
Measurements of the stone are

6.29 - 6.34 x 3.78 mm

So to clarify tell her to stay within .1 or .15mm of 6.29

and stay within these parameters
Table: 54-57
Depth: 60-62.4
Crown: 34-35
Pavillion: 40.6-40.8

also, what would be a fair price for a stone like this? I want to make sure I am getting a decent deal.
The color of the stone and clarity makes that a very broad conversation. How white do you need it to be?
 

moneymeister

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
1,194

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,570
Table can have an effect on size. While each proportion (table, depth, crown, pavilion, etc) are important by themselves, they are equally (if not more) important as a whole.

For instance, a stone with a 60 table and 60 depth will likely have a shallow crown. That type of a stone will size up larger than a stone with a 54 table with a steeper 35 crown and complimentary 40.6 pavilion. In addition to sizing up different, there will also be varying personality. Generally speaking larger tables and shallower crowns equal more white light return, whereas smaller tables and steeper crowns equal more fire/rainbow light.

So if you prefer fire over brilliance I'd stick with smaller tables and steeper crowns, paired with complimentary pavilions. Also, 75 LGF's as they not only produce "fat arrows" but provide more chunky rainbow light return as opposed to 80+ LGF's that will provide more pin fire type return. When looking at various stones and LGF's be mindful how GIA reports. A reported 75 could vary between 73-77, whereas a value of 80 could vary between 78-82. Consequently you may find two identical stones that both have 75 LGF but one looks like more chunky arrows. It's possible one has a 73 and the other has 77 but both are reported as 75. When looking at a hearts image, you can tell this because the V shape that is formed at the bottom of the hearts will be more thin on numerically lower LGF's.

Is your local jeweler pulling from virtual inventory? Or stones specific to them that they own? Also, are all these stones GIA or AGS certified?
 

Reneli

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
87
Thanks for your response sledge! That's a tone of info, its easy to get overwhelmed for a newbie like me. Well, it's a pretty big brick and mortar, well know. I think it is a virtual inventory and if I like something, she brings stuff in.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,570
While these stones are available at certain online retailers, they are part of virtual inventory. If you see any that interest you, then share the GIA number with your jeweler to see if they can get them and what their price is in comparison to the online prices.

GIA XXX 0.86ct F VS2 @ $3,733
https://www.withclarity.com/diamond/107308060?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

56 table, 61.6 depth, 34.5 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 75 LGF

Color and clarity bump. Measures out at 6.10x6.12, which is close. Proportions will yield a very firey stone. Scores a 1.2 HCA. No advanced images available, but proportions look very promising.


GIA XXX 0.89ct I VS2 @ $3,408
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-0.89-carat-i-vs2-yd7323201

54 table, 61.8 depth, 35 crown, 40.6 pavilion & 80 LGF

Meets your minimum color. Slight clarity bump to VS2. Measures out at 6.18x6.21. Again, proportions look very promising and firey despite not having advanced images. Scores a 0.9 HCA.


GIA XXX 0.90ct I VS1 @ $3,950
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/0.90-ct-I-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D43399880?rfr=rc&utm_campaign=201909.01&b=4.010&p=0&utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

57 table, 61.4 depth, 34.5 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 75 LGF

Meets your minimum color. Nice clarity bump to VS1. Measures out at 6.19x6.22. Proportions are quite lovely. Scores a 1.2 HCA. Like the others, no advanced images but looks very promising.
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,365
While these stones are available at certain online retailers, they are part of virtual inventory. If you see any that interest you, then share the GIA number with your jeweler to see if they can get them and what their price is in comparison to the online prices.

GIA XXX 0.86ct F VS2 @ $3,733
https://www.withclarity.com/diamond/107308060?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

56 table, 61.6 depth, 34.5 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 75 LGF

Color and clarity bump. Measures out at 6.10x6.12, which is close. Proportions will yield a very firey stone. Scores a 1.2 HCA. No advanced images available, but proportions look very promising.


GIA XXX 0.89ct I VS2 @ $3,408
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-0.89-carat-i-vs2-yd7323201

54 table, 61.8 depth, 35 crown, 40.6 pavilion & 80 LGF

Meets your minimum color. Slight clarity bump to VS2. Measures out at 6.18x6.21. Again, proportions look very promising and firey despite not having advanced images. Scores a 0.9 HCA.


GIA XXX 0.90ct I VS1 @ $3,950
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/0.90-ct-I-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D43399880?rfr=rc&utm_campaign=201909.01&b=4.010&p=0&utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

57 table, 61.4 depth, 34.5 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 75 LGF

Meets your minimum color. Nice clarity bump to VS1. Measures out at 6.19x6.22. Proportions are quite lovely. Scores a 1.2 HCA. Like the others, no advanced images but looks very promising.
Exactly. Having us suggest virtual stones is easier than the jeweler picking things and then you having to ask about each one. Also you can use the HCA under "tools" and enter the info about stones she suggests.
 

Reneli

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
87
While these stones are available at certain online retailers, they are part of virtual inventory. If you see any that interest you, then share the GIA number with your jeweler to see if they can get them and what their price is in comparison to the online prices.

GIA XXX 0.86ct F VS2 @ $3,733
https://www.withclarity.com/diamond/107308060?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

56 table, 61.6 depth, 34.5 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 75 LGF

Color and clarity bump. Measures out at 6.10x6.12, which is close. Proportions will yield a very firey stone. Scores a 1.2 HCA. No advanced images available, but proportions look very promising.


GIA XXX 0.89ct I VS2 @ $3,408
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-0.89-carat-i-vs2-yd7323201

54 table, 61.8 depth, 35 crown, 40.6 pavilion & 80 LGF

Meets your minimum color. Slight clarity bump to VS2. Measures out at 6.18x6.21. Again, proportions look very promising and firey despite not having advanced images. Scores a 0.9 HCA.


GIA XXX 0.90ct I VS1 @ $3,950
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/0.90-ct-I-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D43399880?rfr=rc&utm_campaign=201909.01&b=4.010&p=0&utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

57 table, 61.4 depth, 34.5 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 75 LGF

Meets your minimum color. Nice clarity bump to VS1. Measures out at 6.19x6.22. Proportions are quite lovely. Scores a 1.2 HCA. Like the others, no advanced images but looks very promising.
Thanks for taking the time to help sledge! Not Sure if they can bring in stuff from other vendors, its a big corperate store but its worth a shot. At worst I can give them these gia numbers and say I want a stone comparable to these
 

Reneli

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
87
Exactly. Having us suggest virtual stones is easier than the jeweler picking things and then you having to ask about each one. Also you can use the HCA under "tools" and enter the info about stones she suggests.
I can use the HCA tool! But I’ll probably have to buy more scans because I’ve hit my limit
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,570
I can use the HCA tool! But I’ll probably have to buy more scans because I’ve hit my limit
Nah, just ask. Myself or others will help. I don't have a limit. ;)2
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,570
Thanks for taking the time to help sledge! Not Sure if they can bring in stuff from other vendors, its a big corperate store but its worth a shot. At worst I can give them these gia numbers and say I want a stone comparable to these
You're very welcome.

It's not a Direct Diamonds is it? If so, we have a local one and they are pretty decent. Me and the manager talk shop when I take my wife's BGD super ideal in there for routine cleaning. He found me intriguing I went AGS000 instead of GIA XXX and bought online vs in person.

I was just thankful that's the only odd things he noticed about me, lol.

Seriously though, not sure the chain, but be careful. As @lovedogs noted, some of the chains try to slip in EGL or IGI certified stones, which isn't a comparable stone -- at least in the US because both those labs are inferior in their grading reliability.
 

Reneli

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
87
Sweet! Thanks again! I sent her a message with the proportions we discussed so hopefully she gets back to me soon. No its a Robbins Brothers, Most of the stuff she has shown me is GIA. I think she senses im starting to inform myself more so i hoping she doesn't show me anything but AGS000 and GIAxxx. I really just wish I can get my money back! whatever diamond I do end up getting, I know I will be paying a premium for it :/ oh well learning experience I guess...
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,365
Sweet! Thanks again! I sent her a message with the proportions we discussed so hopefully she gets back to me soon. No its a Robbins Brothers, Most of the stuff she has shown me is GIA. I think she senses im starting to inform myself more so i hoping she doesn't show me anything but AGS000 and GIAxxx. I really just wish I can get my money back! whatever diamond I do end up getting, I know I will be paying a premium for it :/ oh well learning experience I guess...
I don't like RB at all, but I hate them significantly less than Kays/Zales/etc. But unfortunately they are not known for well cut stones. If you make it clear that you are highly informed then hopefully you'll have better luck and they won't try to upsell you on stones with meaningless certs or ones that are poorly cut.
 

Athena10X

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
Messages
269
If I’m not mistaken, RB carries Fire&Ice cut Forevermark brand, which may be closer to ideal specs. I saw them in person in Reno recently and the stone’s looked promising, but I wasn’t able to put under any scopes. I’d be curious to see the report for one of these stones. Forevermark also has a “black” label line, which may be comparable to the Fire&Ice. Just note that Forevermark is a DeBeers company, so expect to pay a premium to similar stones online, even through super-ideal vendors. Forevermark should be GIA certifies. Unfortunately, they laser inscribe the table with their bogus proprietary label (gimmick). Also see if they RB carries the Hearts on Fire brand, which typically comes with an AGS Diamond Quality Document (includes computer generated ASET). I’m only recommending these for in-person comparisons to virtual stones brought in (cheaper since not branded).
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Jan 11, 2006
Messages
54,995
You don't need to give her any numbers other than these:

able: 54-57
Depth: 60-62.4
Crown: 34-35
Pavillion: 40.6-40.8

I'd try to stay less than 62 on depth, though, because the deeper the stone, you may lose a little face up diameter. You do not tell the jeweler the diameter. You see what she can find with the above measurements and then see which ones are the highest I color, the least objectionable inclusions, and then the largest diameter.
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,365
Also what is fluorescence? And how does that play into everything?
It doesn't matter for like 99% of stones. It's basically a reaction under blacklight that makes the stone glow. IRL it will have minimal (if any) impact on how a stone looks. In super rare cases " very strong" fluor combined with high colors (D/E) can lead to a stone that looks "milky", but it's rare and will almost certainly not be an issue with a G.
 

Reneli

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
87
It doesn't matter for like 99% of stones. It's basically a reaction under blacklight that makes the stone glow. IRL it will have minimal (if any) impact on how a stone looks. In super rare cases " very strong" fluor combined with high colors (D/E) can lead to a stone that looks "milky", but it's rare and will almost certainly not be an issue with a G.
ok good to know! Thoughts on the diamond? 1.4 on hca? not too bad right?
 

Reneli

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
87
You don't need to give her any numbers other than these:

able: 54-57
Depth: 60-62.4
Crown: 34-35
Pavillion: 40.6-40.8

I'd try to stay less than 62 on depth, though, because the deeper the stone, you may lose a little face up diameter. You do not tell the jeweler the diameter. You see what she can find with the above measurements and then see which ones are the highest I color, the least objectionable inclusions, and then the largest diameter.
the current stone she suggested is at 62 in-depth exactly. Do the proportions look right to you?
 
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