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cj2be

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 14, 2019
Messages
140
Hello! My fiancé purchased a ring that I am not pleased with (it's a modern round brilliant with a depth of 66.3%). The jeweler said we can exchange it for a new one and that he can purchase any stone from James Allen. I need help determining which stones within my price point are worth purchasing. My fiancé paid $5,800 for the ring, but I can do $6,100 MAX. My current diamond is a 1.04 carat VS2 G color. I love everything about it except the depth. I am willing to sacrifice clarity and color for a larger stone (1.2 carat max), but I definitely do not want a stone with a spread of less than 6.3mm. Preferably I would like 6.45, and I don't wan't lower than a .94 carat. As far as color goes, I really don't want to go below I unless it's over 1.1 carat. When it comes to certifications, I am a rookie. I just want to make sure this time around we get an ideal cut stone that is incredibly brilliant and doesn't have inclusions near the table that can be seen with the naked eye. PLEASE help me and show me examples that are good contenders!!!
 

MissGotRocks

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
11,663
Use these guidelines:

Table 55-58
Crown angle 34-35
Pavilion 40.6 - 40.9
Depth no more than 62.3

You can always plug these numbers from the certs into the HCA - anything that scores under 2 is worth further consideration. Stick with GIA or AGS certs. None of the ones you posted fall within these ranges in all categories.
 

lydial

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
345

cj2be

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 14, 2019
Messages
140
Did you see this one? HCA 1.2, AGS ideal, $6140. Cut is beautiful to my amateur (learning) eyes, but the inclusion is right there - not sure how you feel about that.

Also: in case you were not aware - if you like something you see here you should contact the seller and "reserve" it because other buyers lurk on the message board and then snatch up the suggestions.

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.00-carat-i-color-vs2-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-2323996
I don’t know if I can get past that inclusion on the table :cry2:. And yes good idea!! Thank you!
 

lydial

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
345
@sledge helped me immensely when I was shopping for mine and I never properly thanked him/her. If you look at the post I put up when I was shopping (I was looking for a 1.2 ct....) go through the advice and read the notes by sledge (and the various responses) about pavilion problems, inverse proportions, LGAs etc. Now I don't think I need the HCA anymore.
 

lydial

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
345
I don’t know if I can get past that inclusion on the table :cry2:. And yes good idea!! Thank you!
You would be surprised but the opinion is that table inclusions can hide from sight better than deeper ones, oddly. It may still be eye clean - you could ask. The proportions are ideal. I didn't see anything else in their inventory. Good luck looking...
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,364
I don’t know if I can get past that inclusion on the table :cry2:. And yes good idea!! Thank you!
Can you still see it at normal viewing distance? That's the important question to ask. I'm not sure if I could. Can you zoom out until it's at "IRL" view? I really don't see much on Ja right now.
 

cj2be

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 14, 2019
Messages
140
Can you still see it at normal viewing distance? That's the important question to ask. I'm not sure if I could. Can you zoom out until it's at "IRL" view? I really don't see much on Ja right now.

Is that subject to change? I’m not really sure how James Allen works. Is it possible they could have an awesome diamond in my price range in a couple weeks? Also, this question is for everyone I guess, but I don’t want my ring to be a noticeably bigger to the average person (I don’t want people to know I got a new stone). Is a 1.2 carat going to be such a significant difference from my current stone that an untrained person might be able to tell? If yes how much bigger would you suggest I can go without it being noticeable?
 

lydial

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
345
HCA 0.9 on this one / $5600:

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.05-carat-i-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6548437

Another very similarly proportioned higher color (with some fluor) one that may be interesting - it is a 1.8 HCA / $5940:

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.01-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6694762

The extra deep crowns on these makes the depth right on the high side but a lot of people like the small table look (I do).

Here is a bigger one with an inclusion in the table / similar proportions / but not True Hearts:

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.21-carat-i-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6684989
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,364
Is that subject to change? I’m not really sure how James Allen works. Is it possible they could have an awesome diamond in my price range in a couple weeks? Also, this question is for everyone I guess, but I don’t want my ring to be a noticeably bigger to the average person (I don’t want people to know I got a new stone). Is a 1.2 carat going to be such a significant difference from my current stone that an untrained person might be able to tell? If yes how much bigger would you suggest I can go without it being noticeable?
My guess is that your old stone faced up smaller than a 1ct (which would be 6.5mm) because it was so deep. As for whether a random person would know, I doubt it. I don't think people pay that much attention to other people's jewelry. 1.2ct will be bigger--but I wouldn't be concerned about what anyone else things. But if you aren't comfortable with it being distinguishable from your original stone, then I would stick to a 1ct size.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
6,222
My guess is that your old stone faced up smaller than a 1ct (which would be 6.5mm) because it was so deep. As for whether a random person would know, I doubt it. I don't think people pay that much attention to other people's jewelry. 1.2ct will be bigger--but I wouldn't be concerned about what anyone else things. But if you aren't comfortable with it being distinguishable from your original stone, then I would stick to a 1ct size.
One could always say that one has had the prongs trimmed, so more stone is showing, hence it looks bigger ;-) :razz:

Either that or say it's been cleaned and it really does make a difference! :D
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,798
First off, thank you @lydial for the kind words. They are very sweet and no thanks is necessary. I'm just glad you got a killer stone. ;)2

I'm rushing out the door and haven't had time to analyze all the stones but here are a few quick thoughts:

1. If within the 30 day return period with JA, you can simply return for a full refund and not be locked solely into them.

2. JA started doing this new thing that frankly pisses me off. They white out the GIA certificate numbers in an attempt to keep customers from value shopping them against other vendors who many times have access to the same identical stone for less money. With some sleuthing we can often find that (virtual inventory) stone elsewhere and you can request a price match if the dollars are out of whack.

3. Without knowing the other proportions of your stone I know with a 66+ depth your stone looks smaller than it should for its weight and its leaking light so it doesn't have maximum fire/sparkle. You are wise to shop by dimensions instead of weight. For point of reference I bought my fiancee a 0.867 BGD Blue H VS2 with medium fluor for $4,700. Spread is 6.20mm. There is hope here, so be patient and keep calm.

4. I assume you want to keep the existing setting? Have you visited with JA or whomever sold you the setting to confirm the range of sizes it will naturally support?

5. I will try to find time today to shift through the choices already presented and look at new ones so I can make some technical comments that may help guide you to your dream rock! :cool2:

6. Most people cant notice a size difference until you there is a 0.20mm or larger difference. And 0.20mm is only 1/128th inch so it's barely detectable to the naked eye when comparing side by side. It's almost certain no one would be able to discern a difference that casually saw your ring as you were showing it off.
 

cj2be

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 14, 2019
Messages
140
I am going to keep the same setting! I already had the head on it replaced once so that my diamond could sit lower so I shouldn’t have an issue (I could always just have another head put on it to accommodate a bigger stone if need be). I tried on a 1.22 carat and LOVED it but it looked so much bigger than mine. The spread on my 1 carat is definitely small; it’s only in the 6.3 range. I mean I’m even okay going down to a .9 carat with the same spread I’m just entertaining the thought of going bigger :) all I know is that I am worried about the jeweler not getting back to me in time! A couple of the stones I emailed to him sold overnight. Does James Allen get new stones in a lot?

First off, thank you @lydial for the kind words. They are very sweet and no thanks is necessary. I'm just glad you got a killer stone. ;)2

I'm rushing out the door and haven't had time to analyze all the stones but here are a few quick thoughts:

1. If within the 30 day return period with JA, you can simply return for a full refund and not be locked solely into them.

2. JA started doing this new thing that frankly pisses me off. They white out the GIA certificate numbers in an attempt to keep customers from value shopping them against other vendors who many times have access to the same identical stone for less money. With some sleuthing we can often find that (virtual inventory) stone elsewhere and you can request a price match if the dollars are out of whack.

3. Without knowing the other proportions of your stone I know with a 66+ depth your stone looks smaller than it should for its weight and its leaking light so it doesn't have maximum fire/sparkle. You are wise to shop by dimensions instead of weight. For point of reference I bought my fiancee a 0.867 BGD Blue H VS2 with medium fluor for $4,700. Spread is 6.20mm. There is hope here, so be patient and keep calm.

4. I assume you want to keep the existing setting? Have you visited with JA or whomever sold you the setting to confirm the range of sizes it will naturally support?

5. I will try to find time today to shift through the choices already presented and look at new ones so I can make some technical comments that may help guide you to your dream rock! :cool2:

6. Most people cant notice a size difference until you there is a 0.20mm or larger difference. And 0.20mm is only 1/128th inch so it's barely detectable to the naked eye when comparing side by side. It's almost certain no one would be able to discern a difference that casually saw your ring as you were showing it off.
 

Ss52

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
158
, member: 108844"]I am going to keep the same setting! I already had the head on it replaced once so that my diamond could sit lower so I shouldn’t have an issue (I could always just have another head put on it to accommodate a bigger stone if need be). I tried on a 1.22 carat and LOVED it but it looked so much bigger.....



I’d love to see the setting you’ve chosen if it’s not at your jeweler. Don’t worry, there are some gorgeous rocks available.....and there always will be. Hang on. I’m searching for you too[/QUOTE]
 

cj2be

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 14, 2019
Messages
140
A386E1D6-B22F-4846-A3DA-3D0E3C4594D3.jpeg


, member: 108844"]I am going to keep the same setting! I already had the head on it replaced once so that my diamond could sit lower so I shouldn’t have an issue (I could always just have another head put on it to accommodate a bigger stone if need be). I tried on a 1.22 carat and LOVED it but it looked so much bigger.....



I’d love to see the setting you’ve chosen if it’s not at your jeweler. Don’t worry, there are some gorgeous rocks available.....and there always will be. Hang on. I’m searching for you too
[/QUOTE]
 

Ss52

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
158
Beautiful setting! Thank you.

Here are some diamonds with small tables. They tend to have more colored fire because the top minor facets are larger when the table (another facet) is smaller. The crowns are taller which is something you can see from the side (I love that), but it causes the depth to increase even though the angles are correct. There are even some very clean si1 stones here, better looking than some vs2.

Let your eyes decide


1. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.00-carat-g-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6503773

2. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.00-carat-h-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6610474

3. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.01-carat-i-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6715835

4. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.00-carat-d-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6453959

5. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.00-carat-e-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6091685
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,364
Beautiful setting! Thank you.

Here are some diamonds with small tables. They tend to have more colored fire because the top minor facets are larger when the table (another facet) is smaller. The crowns are taller which is something you can see from the side (I love that), but it causes the depth to increase even though the angles are correct. There are even some very clean si1 stones here, better looking than some vs2.

Let your eyes decide


1. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.00-carat-g-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6503773

2. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.00-carat-h-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6610474

3. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.01-carat-i-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6715835

4. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.00-carat-d-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6453959

5. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.00-carat-e-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6091685
I'm sorry, but none of these are good suggestions. All too deep, one not GIA or AGS certified, none have proportions we would recommend.
 

cj2be

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 14, 2019
Messages
140
A couple of those are actually being sent over to my jeweler cause he contacted the owner! I think he said Eurostar owns one of them. However, I see that a couple of them have indented natural inclusions and that’s kind of a red flag for me because it’s a fancy word for chip. I’m no expert so maybe I shouldn’t be too worried about it. Are chips a big deal? All I really care about is having a durable fiery diamond with very minimal inclusions visible to the naked eye. Thank you so much for your help by the way!


 

Ss52

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
158
I'm sorry, but none of these are good suggestions. All too deep, one not GIA or AGS certified, none have proportions we would recommend.
Four of the five I recommended have GIA certs. One is IGI. I don’t like IGI certs either and would probably ask for a GIA cert or no sale on that one. That doesn’t mean any of the above aren’t perfectly beautiful diamonds, if you love small tables and high crowns. The high crown causes the depth to be a little over the average for “ideal” cuts, but the crown and pavilion angles are complementary. Are you saying that any of the above diamonds will have gross light leakage? I don’t believe so or would not have recommended them. Thanks.
 

Ss52

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
158
Lovedogs, I should have a run these diamonds through the HCA tool before responding. You are right, 1, 3, and 4 are not good. However, number two and number five score well, 1.3 and 1.4. Please accept my apologies for the rather huffy reply.

Cj2be, discard 1, 3, and 4, they are not good. Do look at 2 and 5 though.
Happy hunting.
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,364
Lovedogs, I should have a run these diamonds through the HCA tool before responding. You are right, 1, 3, and 4 are not good. However, number two and number five score well, 1.3 and 1.4. Please accept my apologies for the rather huffy reply.

Cj2be, discard 1, 3, and 4, they are not good. Do look at 2 and 5 though.
Happy hunting.
No problem and thanks! Sorry I didn't realize that 5 scored well.... I must not have looked carefully enough. 2 has the IGI cert, which I just don't trust at all.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,026
No problem and thanks! Sorry I didn't realize that 5 scored well.... I must not have looked carefully enough. 2 has the IGI cert, which I just don't trust at all.
Agree, there is no way that girdle is "slightly thick". It would be "slightly thick-thick" or "thick" if graded by GIA and therefore it has no chance for GIA EX. That spread is not good. A good example of diamond that is cut to meet the magic 1.0c mark and sent to IGI for a favouable cut grade.
 
Last edited:

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,364
If you want something that's really well cut from JA and slightly bigger, I'd go with one of these two:

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.10-carat-j-color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-2634016

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.06-carat-j-color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-6144510

I know your current stone is supposedly a G, but since it's uncertified I doubt it's actually a G. That makes me think that a J might be ok (obviously you'd have to see an actual J--certified through GIA or AGS--to be sure, but just a thought!)

And if you don't think you could handle a J, here are some other choices:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.05-carat-f-color-si2-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-6715475
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.01-carat-h-color-si2-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-6715504

*Question about this one for @flyingpig or @Karl_K or other experts on ASET images. Why does the AGS scan look so weird without any green in the middle? Or is that just some weird error?
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.04-carat-i-color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-6543303
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
8,500

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
8,500
An indented natural is not a chip exactly it is a bit of the original skin of the diamond that dips into the finished diamond.
It can be and issue if its at the girdle where they usual are and it makes the girdle dangerously thin or if they are overlay large or deep.
They need to be evaluated on a case by case basis but are often fine.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,026
interesting! I didn't know that it could be any other color than green (in a good one). As always, teaching me lessons :)
https://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/aset---table-reflection-whiteflash-1420.htm

The diamond you linked has PA of 40.9 and that is probably why it is red in the middle.

It is something useful to know. If a diamond has PA of 41.0 and the vendor provide an ASET with green middle, there is probably something wrong and you want to investigate. It is either the ASET image is taken incorrectly, or the vendor took the image of a wrong diamond.
 
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