Need Help from P-scope "Pros" ! Help Me Compare These Two Rocks!

[3shebabes]

My head hurts from trying to decide what to do! My hubby and I are seriously considering two diamonds for my upcoming 10th anniversary e-ring switch-up! (I'm not diggin' the word upgrade anymore...)

Anyway, diamond #1 I have seen in person and it is beautiful to my eye. My only reservation is that I'm not sure I want to go down to H color (as I've had an E color 1-carat pear for 10 years and I adore the whiteness of it..) and though the cut is very good, it isn't as good as diamond #2. My husband, of course, leans toward the first one we've seen because A) we've seen it, B) the vendor offered us a "good deal" on any setting we choose from him and C) it's cheaper!But he said he wants me to be thrilled with the stone so he wants me to choose...

Diamond #1

2.72 carat Round Brilliant
H color, SI1 (eye-clean! I've seen it!)
8.90 x 8.96 x 5.48
GIA certed
depth - 61.4%
table - 57%
crown % - 15.5%
crown angle - 35.5
pav. % - 42.0%
pav. angle - 40.2
girdle - thin to slightly thick, faceted
Cut Grade - Very Good
Polish - Very Good
Sym - Very Good
Culet - none
Flour - none
$29,900

Diamond #2

2.86 carat Round Brilliant (listed by James Allen, item # 102479
G color, SI1 (they tell me it is eye-clean, but I haven't seen it)
9.04 x 9.09 x 5.68
AGS certed - AGS Ideal Cut (Hearts & Arrows Cut)
depth - 62.6
table - 54.2
crown % - 16.2
crown angle - 35.3
pav % - 43.0
pav. angle - 40.8
girdle - thin to medium, faceted
Cut grade - ideal
polish - ideal
sym - ideal
culet - none
flouro - negligible
$33,520
*This stone is pictured on the James Allen website with the little magnifier thingy and it looks eye-clean to me -- but is that accurate?

I know enough to know that diamond #2 has better color and cut, but to a non-professional eye, will that ideal cut make a difference? I actually think the G color will be visibly different to me , as I do consider myself to be color-sensitive. I tried to do the HCA on each stone, but I must be doing something wrong because it tells me the numbers must be wrong. Can any of you get an HCA score to come up for either stone?

So my questions are:
1) What are the HCA scores on each stone?
2) Will the Ideal cut be dramatically, visibly different?
3) Is the table % small on the 2nd diamond - and what effect does that have?
4) Will the tiny, tiny face-up size diameter difference be visible - or is it too close to call size-wise?
5) Is the money difference worth the step up in color and cut?

Any help any of you can provide would be tremendously appreciated. I don't think I have ever seen an AGS Triple 0 in person - so I don't know what to compare it to...I would like to decide soon...while my hubby's in such a generous mood.

Of course, to see diamond #2, we have to shell out the $ and have it shipped to see it - and that's a bit intimidating, but do-able, of course! Also, the vendor of stone #1 has a lifetime, awesome trade-in policy, which is better than James Allen's policy...which I believe only allows trade-ins within 5 years. What to do?!
Help?!

 

[Regular Guy]

Maybe you can tell us about your screen name?

Meanwhile...I wouldn''t immediately presume #2 is better cut than #1. With number 1 (61.4, 57, 35.5 & 40.2, I see a borderline FIC (firey) option scoring a solid 1 on the HCA. Your number 2 actually score 2.3 (62.6, 54.2, 35.3 & 40., however...looking at the certificate, that confirms 0 for light performance, and the proportions match up...and we are led to think the 0 will trump a different predictor for HCA (i.e., when data seems to contradict each other...AGS & HCA...choose AGS).

Maybe others can comment on cut. Always, more info can help (like a reflector image for #1). Maybe your vendor might even be hip to such things, and could help us here. Depending on where you are...we might be able to direct him. Who doesn''t want a sale?

Regards,

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I think #2 is a much better deal. It is larger, ideal cut, and a color grade higher! I think you might be bothered by the color in a stone that large if you are used to a colorless stone. My dilemma with #2 would be the lack of lifetime trade in policy. I prefer to deal with Good Old Gold and WhiteFlash for that reason.

By the way, I am originally from your state and visit there often!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Here are some others that I would consider:

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-418638.htm

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1105594.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131

Not many G SI1''s around at the moment in that size range.

 

[3shebabes]

Thanks for the input everyone! Anyone else have anything to add?

My screen name, 3shebabes, is a reference to my 3 children (all daughters, of course). My license plate is PINK X3, for that reason also. It is amazing how many different ways I''ve seen people reference their kids on their license plate: ALL BOYZ, BOYZ4US, 2 GRLZ, etc...

My avatar is deceiving, though -- I am not actually a South Carolinian -- actually lived there as a baby, but am now a Virginian. I love SC though --my hubby and I honeymooned in Hilton Head and now we take our kids there every summer...plus I love the palm tree and crescent moon from their flag...

I''m surprised at the HCA score for stone #2, but I guess that''s just one way to judge a stone. I''m not sure what to think.

I did take a look at the other linked 2 stones - and I thank you for that comparison opportunity. I know that my stone #1, which was loose but I was able to use one of those little stone holders in order to slip it on my finger -- was a size I loved on my finger. I also tried on a 2.44 carat RB that day, but preferred the 2.72 look on my hand (Imagine that!) -- and I could definitely see a difference in those sizes..so I guess I''d like to stay in that size range.

Has anyone out there dealt with James Allen and do you know whether they are easy to deal with when it comes to returns -- in case I order this stone and want to return it within the 30 day period? It''s scary to put that much money out there, no matter what! My hubby and I did it 10 years ago when we ordered my 1 carat pear online -- and felt like complete morons wiring $4900 for a stone we''d never seen back then, but it turned out fine. Fewer people were considering such a thing back then -- you told someone you ordered a diamond sight unseen on the internet and they''d look at you like you were insane and/or seriously unintelligent...

Anyway -- thanks for the help, everyone. If anyone else has any advice or opinion on the matter, I''d love to hear it. If a stone is an AGS triple 0, is it virtually guaranteed to be gorgeous and sparkly to the maximum? Or, are there ideal stones out there that are, for some reason, "dead" looking, even though the numbers are good on paper?

 

[3shebabes]

Okay, I just went back & did the HCA tool on both stones and though it worked this time for me, I am very confused about it. Stone #1 got a score of 1 (Excellent) even though the "X" which marks the proportions of where that stone falls numbers-wise was definitely outside of the outline for both GIA excellent and AGS ideal ranges. But stone #2, scored a 2.3 (Very Good) even though the X was within the AGS ideal range outline. I don''t get it now. It''s like the final score contradicts what the graphic shows. I''m really confused!

Any thoughts?

 

[Regular Guy]

3she...

Date: 9/15/2007 1:36:11 PM
Author: 3shebabes
I don''t get it now. It''s like the final score contradicts what the graphic shows. I''m really confused!

Any thoughts?

Re-read my post above; also note this:

Possibly it''s the case that a diamond can be evaluated two ways for it''s light performance...I) logically, and II) directly, and the first way could be a) generally, and b) specifically.

The first way is based on an understanding of principles of light, and how they should predict how it will be behave, based on a diamond''s proportions.

In this first way...

I a) HCA describes how a diamond will behave IF it has certain proportions. The cert for a given diamond specify those proportions. So...once removed...you apply those proportions, and get your result.

I b) AGS also describes how a diamond will behave with certain proportions. It doesn''t see the diamond, but similarly, predicts performance, based on proportions. The diamond being measured by AGS''s grading system has been specifically measured in a 3 dimensional way, and the totality of those measurements are applied to the same (or very similar) principles that HCA applies...but very specifically to the diamond at hand. Imagine Cat woman in a baggy suit for HCA, vs a form fitting one for AGS''s metric

II) Here, neither HCA nor AGS''s metric apply for direct measurement. Using an idealscope, you see what happens when light is presented to the diamond directly. Ostensibly, what you see is what you get, regardless of what predictions might have said.

Each has it''s advantages. In your case, diamond #2 presents with both sets of data. This should not be regarded as a knock against diamond #1...preliminarily, anyway.

As a P.S. Garry, the author of the HCA, has as much said that a revised system would give 0 - 2.5 the name of ideal, largely, as it gives 0 - 2 now...and in some instances...he''d stretch this to 0 - 3.

Are you protected on diamond #1 in the case that you lose an eye (since the move to beyond 2 has been related to binocular vision vs monocular vision)?

Unfortunately, until diamond 1 is viewed more closely than the GIA cert provides (for example, it only publishes rounded data), it simply has less information associated with it to say with any certainty how it compares.

Also, the issues concerning variance of cost and color advantaged are NOT notwithstanding, as Diamondseeker above points out.

However...the construct here is interesting...and if you won''t be able to get more data (i.e., data from an idealscope, etc.), I do wonder how an expert here would speculate about performance between both of these.

Maybe I haven''t helped at all...except that the info about AGS should explain how it can get 0 for light performance, and still not make HCA''s ideal grade.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I do not believe it is possible for an AGS0 stone not to be beautiful. They are the best of the best...probably in the top 5% of diamonds. The second stone is just a better value and has the higher color. There is no issue whatsoever with ordering and returning a stone to James Allen. If you keep it, you just have to be sure if it is your "forever" stone within that 5 year time period for upgrades. If I were choosing for myself, it would be that one, hands down. Oh, and don''t worry about the HCA, it has some quirks sometimes. Always go by the AGS cert. Ideal for light performance is a more precise evaluation of the stone itself.

(We have lived in VA, too, and I love it there! I agree that the SC flag is the most beautiful state flag.)

 

[Regular Guy]

With your choice down to two, to be thorough, your decision could be made more clear if you''re willing to make it a two step process instead of one:

1) Order the JA stone (#2)
2) Bring it to the #1 stone, and Pepsi test between the two. Of course, make sure you know you could identify them after the fact...and compare them, without knowing which was which.

If you didn''t select the JA option, return it.

Just an idea.

 

[3shebabes]

Diamondseeker & Regular Guy - Thanks so much for your added replies. I like the no-holds-barred opinion you offered, Diamondseeker -- that you''d choose the G SI1 Triple 0 handsdown. I really, really think I would also -- if it weren''t for that daggone 5-year-limit trade-in policy. If we buy a diamond like this, there is no way we''d consider a trade-up within 5 years. 10 or 15 maybe--but not within 5. So the trade-in policy is somewhat useless, I guess. The only benefit of it might be that if we buy that stone and for some reason something about it doesn''t suit me in a few years, we could trade it in..but I don''t think that''s likely.

And Regular Guy, I appreciate your idea for the Pepsi taste test. Actually - it may have to come to that! I mentioned the possibility for a side-by-side viewing of the stones to my hubby and he gave me a look that indicated he thinks I''ve finally exhibited true signs of mental illness. The rock we''ve seen is 3 1/2 hours away. That isn''t the problem as I''d happily make the trip again --it''s more the discomfort of schlepping this rock in there only to force the vendor''s sales guy to watch us eliminate his diamond. I didn''t mention before that we actually put a $5k fully refundable deposit on the H stone so he''d hold it -- which he said he''d be happy to do for 60 days - which is also very generous...

UGH! I am SO not good at making decisions....but I am grateful for your input!

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

hum, If it is only the upgrade policy holding you back we need t find that recent thread by Echelon. I will look for it in a minute. In there he presents an equation that is somewhat revealing, though I am not sure that he is exactly right on about it.


At any rate it might be worth considering his logic. In 10, or more likely? 15 years?

How much would that same quality and size diamond cost?

If in fact the price of diamonds rise and inflation jacks up prices further Then even without a trade up policy you could probably get a pretty nice % of your original purchase amount back, just due to the fact that the current price will be higher than what you paid, and your diamond will be a pretty desirable diamond in itself such, especially if you purchased a future upgrade from them as well. And of course if there is some sortof economic problem or drop in diamond prices I am sure everybody will adjust there upgrade policies accordingly


Anyway, here is the thread, you should check it out and give it some thought if that is really the only thing holding you back:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/true-value-of-a-100-tradeup-policy-geeks-welcome.66826/

 

[3shebabes]

Working Hard for Small Rewards,

Thanks for taking the time to respond & for the helpful and thought provoking link regarding upgrade policies!

I agree with some of what was said in the link -- there are lots of variables to consider such as whether the vendor you buy from will exist when you want to upgrade, whether you''ll ever be in the position to upgrade, what the inflation rate will do to values by then, etc...

The vendor I''m talking to about stone #1 has the most incredible trade-up policy though--not only is it a lifetime policy (or at least the lifetime of the company--haha!), you get 100% of the money you paid in credit AND there is no minimum purchase amount like many vendors require. So you can trade-in and spend only a tad bit more (there policy states $1 more) which sounds awesome...BUTif you do that 15 or 20 years down the road, spending just a little more than your trade-in amount probably won''t even buy what you''re trading in at current prices....so I do get it! It would be nice to have SOME credit, but the reality is likely to be that in using the trade-in policy to upgrade an e-ring center stone, you''d have to shell out LOTS more in order just to upgrade at all. But--at least you would have some credit and wouldn''t be starting at zero dollars credit like you would with no policy...

But you''ve given me LOTS to consider and I thank you. When thinking about buying a 2.72 or a 2.86 carat diamond, when many/most of my friends wear a carat or less, it is hard to imagine needing/wanting to upgrade ever..but I''ve read enough on PS to know it happens all the time. My husband and I are already wondering what having such an upgrade will be like to begin with--in terms of the reaction we''d get from friends, etc -- but he has had pretty amazing career success over the 10 years we''ve been married and we are so very grateful for that. Not because we can consider buying luxury items (like a larger diamond) but because we live pretty free of financial stress...and for that I know we are astoundingly fortunate. But like I mentioned above,I may know one or two women who sport rocks above 2 carats where we live. It is not a wealthy area - but rather very average in terms of median income, etc. If you go into a jewelry store here, you are lucky to find diamonds for sale in the 1 carat range size -- because here, few people can afford them. Most of the diamonds here are .50 carat and around that range. So I have a hard time picturing myself ever pining for a bigger diamond than what we''re considering, but I know due to Diamond Shrinkage Syndrome it could very well happen. But maybe in the future, I wouldn''t tradeup my center stone -- but instead add anniversary bands, etc. Who knows? Anyway--sorry to ramble. Add to all this the reality that in 10 years, we''ll be sending daughter #1 to college for at least 4 years, one year break in between, then daughters #2 and #3 follow and overlap by a few years after that. I''m guessing that whole chuck of time won''t be upgrade-friendly anyway! And that doesn''t even begin to take into account the probability of picking up the tab for 3 weddings in the years that follow! Man, now that I think about it --no more guilt pangs here! I want my upgrade and I want it now! This may be my only chance to spend money on ME for the next 20 years!

I thank you, WHFSR, for your helpful response & link! My hubby is big on the trade-in policy benefit of stone #1 and I think that is largely holding him back from supporting stone #2 - so your link gave me lots of thoughts to bring up to him..!

 

[jayreneepea]

I''d say buy the H and if the color bothers you have the jeweler source a G for you and upgrade. Then post pics!