shape
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color
clarity

NEED HELP Deciding between three Super Ideals: BDG Black and Whiteflash

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by Katty01Kat, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. Katty01Kat
    Rough_Rock

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    by Katty01Kat » Aug 17, 2019
    Please help: I'm debating between these three which I've been studying quite a bit but being a non expert, I need some validation.

    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4047013.htm

    https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...-ags-c-104104416030#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/3/

    https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...-bkags-104105957020#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/3/

    Between the two Gs, is Black by BGD really worth it? Its almost a $2K difference from Whiteflash and a $5K difference from the H. Not sure I'm good with H but for the price point, I'll be good with it. :) The report for Black by BGD looks stunning but I've read the difference between Black and Signature is generally subtle. Would you recommend Black in this case? Between the three stones? Would be willing to fork over the extra bucks if it makes a difference but would need some validation. Not even sure if I should be posting links here. Sorry. Would appreciate any feedback.
     
    


    


  2. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Aug 17, 2019
    I'd go with WF over bgd because of the superior upgrade policy. All three will be great performers.

    Does one vendor have a setting you prefer? That can help decide.
     
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  3. ac117
    Ideal_Rock

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    by ac117 » Aug 18, 2019
    Wouldn’t be worth it to me for the black by bgd line. In fact, I’d take either of these stones over any of the 3 that you posted:
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4092175.htm
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4022267.htm
    https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10645

    I also think this is a beautiful option to maximize color and size if you don’t need such high clarity for cultural reasons:
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4092518.htm

    This could also be a good option bc they are guaranteeing H VS2 but could actually come potentially back with better specs once graded and you’d pay the same price:
    https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10829
     
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  4. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Aug 18, 2019
    +1!
     
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  5. tyty333
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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  6. Katty01Kat
    Rough_Rock

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    by Katty01Kat » Aug 18, 2019
    Thank you thank you thank you. You have no idea how much I appreciate and needed this feedback. I was looking at the H VS1 from CBI and now still considering it. However, I am leaning towards a G for a whiter, crisper look and it appears that whiteflash currently has a great selection of Gs. CBI has a G but I dont know if the cut is as precise?

    So of the Gs from Whiteflash, I may stick to the original one to keep the price lower. However, please let me know if cut precision, inclusion locations play a factor in all the Gs that have been mentioned. I guess I'm happy with a lower size 2.03 carat G but would be willing to pay a bit more if the cut is more precise. Understand I am splitting hairs here due to the precision of all the stones from these top vendors. But hey, I'm already paying a premium, so why not. Also, if I somehow find an inclusion, I can never unsee it and it will drive me bonkers. However, the S1 that was recommended had inclusions very smartly placed?

    Thanks again everyone! You've reduced a lot of stress and anxiety already!!!
     
  7. Katty01Kat
    Rough_Rock

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    by Katty01Kat » Aug 18, 2019
    PS - this group has got me reeaaaallly interested in these two stones.

    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4047013.htm
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4092518.htm

    I do worry about the clarity being an SI1 though. Should I be? Will I be able to see anything if I look really closely? The cut and the Ideal Scope just looks so beautiful and just ever so sliiiightly better than the VS1. Or am I completely wrong here? I think I'm ready to pull the trigger on one of these!

    Thanks,
    Katherine
     
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  8. KKJohnson
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by KKJohnson » Aug 18, 2019
    I wouldnt be worried about the S1 clarity, it’s earned the ACA rating and will be stunning
     
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  9. cksnipe
    Rough_Rock

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    by cksnipe » Aug 18, 2019
    Agreed. Also, that 2.488 ct is much larger than the 2.036 ct at almost the same price. I doubt you would be able to tell the difference in clarity without a loupe.
     
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  10. ac117
    Ideal_Rock

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    by ac117 » Aug 19, 2019
    The SI1 is an amazing option at an excellent price while not sacrificing color, which is why I suggested it. Stones juuuust under a carat/half carat mark are hard to come by. I understand the desire to stay at a G and I would have no problem with an eye clean SI1 to gain this size a similar price. I’d contact WF and ask them to reserve (we have lurkers so you don’t want them to be snatched up) and pull these 2 stones and walk you through how eye clean the SI1 is (from what angle/distance) to make sure you’re comfortable before you pull the trigger. They could send you comparison photos, as well.
     
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  11. Katty01Kat
    Rough_Rock

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    by Katty01Kat » Aug 19, 2019
    Yay!!!! Thanks for all the great feedback!
     
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  12. tyty333
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by tyty333 » Aug 19, 2019
    Contact WF and ask for a side-by-side photo. Eye clean SI1s (like these) come at a great price point. You can gain extra size vs. spending money on
    less inclusions that are not visible in the first place. My 3 AGS/GIA stones are all SI1s. You gain quite a bit of size on that 2.48 is you can swing the cost.
    Here is the relative size difference on a size 5 finger. Both gorgeous stones though!
    Capture.PNG
     
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  13. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Aug 19, 2019
    Also, I saw above you asked about CBI vs ACA. Both are super ideal diamonds (just from different vendors). One is not better than the other, both are the best of the best and cut to very precise standards. Just FYI!
     
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  14. Katty01Kat
    Rough_Rock

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    by Katty01Kat » Aug 19, 2019
    I friggin love this site/forum.

    So I talked to WF. They pulled the SI1 and unfortunately, she said that yes, face up, its clean but I would be able to find the feathers at 9 and at 3. I was really rooting for it since I had gotten all excited that I might be getting a bigger stone. She also pulled a couple of other ones recommended on this thread and she said that if I was sensitive to clarity, then she would recommend sticking to the VS1. I also currently have a G that I will be wearing so I'm afraid to go to H. Id probably be fine but it might be a mind clean thing for me. She did say though if size was the priority, the SI1 was a great option. :cry2::cry2::cry2:

    So sad. I was really loving the SI1.
     
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  15. ac117
    Ideal_Rock

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    by ac117 » Aug 19, 2019
    What if the feathers are covered by prongs? If they are light in color it would be very hard to find. Another option would be having the SI1 sent to you and you could always return it for the VS1 if it’s not eye clean to your standards.
     
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  16. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Aug 19, 2019
    Same question as @ac117....could careful prong placement cover the feathers on the SI1? Doesn't always work, but definitely needs to be clarified with WF.

    Can you please clarify the statement from the WF rep? While I would agree that if the feathers are visible with the naked eye and your only two choices are the SI1 and VS1, then the VS1 seems like a more logical choice (assuming the feathers can't be hid by prongs). However, when comparing against other SI1's, VS2's, etc then I don't agree that VS1 has to be your "floor" because you value clarity. In fact there are plenty of eye clean SI1's rocking around this joint. You just have to be selective and ask the questions you are currently asking. Remember, if you can find a stone with lower clarity it allows you a size/color increase and/or potential money savings.

    Also, is your existing G graded by AGS or GIA? Asking because some believe that AGS color grading can be a little "soft" compared to GIA. Given the fact both labs use GIA master sets to determine color I think more of the problem is inefficiency of human grading.

    If your existing stone is GIA graded, it may be worth asking how the AGS G and H stones fair against a GIA G comparable stone since you seem to be color sensitive and know that is your cut off point.

    Love the proportions (55 table, 34.6/40.7, 76 LGF :love:) on the WF H VS2 , but understand the color dilemma.

    I also like the proportions on the 2.228 G VS1, as they are very similar. 55 table, 61.6 depth, 34.7 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 78 LGF's. Love that small table, and LGF's are in the near perfect range although I like my arrows a little fatter so would prefer 76.

    Small table and crown/pavilion throwing big fire. Plus, it's a little better deal than the original 2.036 G VS1 you were looking at.

    WF ACA 2.036 G VS1 = $29,549 wire / 2.036 ct = $14,513 per carat
    WF ACA 2.228 G VS1 = $30,835 wire / 2.228 ct = $13,839 per carat

    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4092175.htm

    Lastly, in regards to your original question I have much love for BGD as I bought my wife's stone from them; however, their upgrade policy is more restrictive and I don't see a unique advantage to spending the extra dollars. Also, if upgrades are important, not only does the policy matter but the inventory selection! A 2-2.5 ct stone is decent size, and not everyone will have 3+ carat stones laying around in inventory when/if the time does come for an upgrade.
     
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  17. KKJohnson
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by KKJohnson » Aug 19, 2019
    You can request WF to pull the H you are interested in and compare them next to a G, there is a color range such as a High or Low H. You can find an H that is very very close to a G in color
     
  18. Katty01Kat
    Rough_Rock

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    by Katty01Kat » Aug 19, 2019
    Thank you again! My stone is GIA graded.

    I agree. Would have preferred the G 2.228 carat one as well! But there's a crystal unfortunately placed right on an arrow under the table. No clue if I would be able to see it but the picture is offputting. I think she pulled that one as well. VS1 is definitely not my floor but I also would be driven crazy if I happen to find something one day. She explained that the feathers were unfortunately rotated in not a great way. The broad side being visible rather than the thin side. I'll call back and ask for more pictures, questions etc. Thankfully, the rep is super patient with me. Lol

    Thank you!!!!
     
  19. Katty01Kat
    Rough_Rock

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    by Katty01Kat » Aug 19, 2019
    Ok. Requested more pictures and videos of stone side by side and throwing in an H. Will let you know!
     
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  20. Lykame
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Lykame » Aug 19, 2019
    Hi and welcome!

    Pleeease remember that these stones are graded under X10 magnification and all the photos and videos are extremely magnified. Don't discount a stone because of something you can see in those pictures. That 2.228 is extremely clean and it looks like that might be a clear or white inclusion. It's worth getting the opinion of your representative - Whiteflash as you have discovered are extremely honest and that's really great. They'll also tell you if the inclusion bounces around the stone in terms of light reflection. They'll be honest with you if it's something that can be seen (but it's a VS1 so I would be gobsmacked).

    I have a 2 carat VS2 super ideal and I know there are some anecdotes of people being able to see the inclusions rarely in VS2s... but honestly with the light performance of this thing it would be really impossible. If I take my contacts out (I'm very short sighted) and stare at it an inch from the side then maaaaybe (although the definition of eye clean is usually ten inches from the top) ... But maybe I just didn't clean it well enough, you know? I would say I want an eye clean stone from quite strict criteria but actually there becomes a point where I'm not bothered. It's a fingerprint of my earth grown diamond. I guess I'm just trying to say have a think about what would realistically bother you so that you can communicate that to your representative. I totally understand mind clean is important but all of these stones will have inclusions if you zoom in far enough. :geek2:

    If you have any chance to see the stone(s) in person then I would highly recommend that. In fact I think you can ask for a selection of stones to be sent to an approved appraiser for viewing, then you could see them without being told which is which.

    Another thing - in these ideal cut ranges, the stones will face up more white, and you'll likely have less issue with the G Vs H than you think unless it's a purely mine clean issue or you're extremely colour sensitive... Some people are really bothered by these changes in grades and that's fine, but it's worth seeing these super ideals in person as they may surprise you.

    Finally - you know what, despite everything I've said you also need to be comfortable with your purchase and only you can decide your thresholds. I'm just pressing you a little as you'll only figure out your thresholds once you've been pushed past them and it's worth doing that despite the fact Whiteflash have an awesome upgrade plan for you if you need it in the future.

    Best of luck and keep us updated!
     
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  21. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Aug 20, 2019
    Please remember all clarity is graded using a 10x scope. While that inclusion on the table of the VS1 may bother you mentally, the likelihood of it being visible is nearly non existent -- without the aide of a scope.

    Again, definitely ask WF but I am almost certain they will tell you the same thing.

    In regards to color, I don't think you should back off the G if you feel that is your floor. Color is more obvious to people than clarity. Also, while a super ideal faces up whiter, it's not always in a face up position. The question becomes, when you see the side/body, which is where color is most obvious and where it's also graded, will you be okay with it?

    I could also argue that seeing color between one grade is difficult. Not impossible but many times it depends on the exact stones being compared. Why? Because color (and clarity) is graded by humans and subject to some interpretation. Also, you will learn that color is a RANGE and not a specific data point. The less tint, the smaller the range. The more tint and the size of the range increases. Therefore a D has little variance but an H will have more variance. Consequently you get things like high H (almost G) or low H (almost I) or maybe just an H (more or less in the middle). All these factors combined and comparing a G to an H can be either very difficult or a little more obvious depending on specifics.

    If possible, I'd recommend visiting the WF showroom in Sugar Land, TX (near Houston). If that isn't possible speak with WF about shipping a couple of stones to a local jeweler for comparison with YOUR EYES. You may be surprised at what you learn, and it may provide the clarity (no pun intended) and confidence you need to move forward with a purchase.
     
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  22. headlight
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by headlight » Aug 20, 2019
    Great advice. I would definitely get G over H. As long as SI1 doesn’t have inclusions such as knots or cavities or suspicious issue(s) with clouds, or black inclusions, better to get the higher color and size (if that’s a priority for you... some people don’t want something as large... but definitely that will be significantly larger than the 2.03. But if it is going to bother you knowing that it’s an SI, then you have to go up in clarity. However, as lovedogs always (smartly) suggests, if you go with WF you get amazingly generous upgrade policy so you would have to security of knowing you could swap it out if the SI bothers you, keeping in mind the issue of someone being sentimental and wanting to keep the diamond that was used for the proposal, as well as the potential that a newly selected stone may possibly not fit in your mounting based on what you upgraded to, and also you would have to be without the ring for the time to send it back and forth and for the reset... some people just aren’t willing to part with their ring for a couple weeks, There’s also the issue of transport insurance... don’t know what your insurance policy would cover... you would need to check, and I would STRONGLY emphasize you have it insured, that’s something we don’t talk about here when helping buyers select a diamond. I don’t know if WF provides the insurance. But having your own and verifying everything involved with the trade up and reset and transport are covered through your policy would then be very important.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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  23. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Aug 20, 2019
    It's strongly encourage you secure an insurance policy on your stone. Reasonable rates are available from a variety of locations. Many seem to use Jeweler's Mutual (JM) here, myself included. Some prefer to keep it under their homeowner's policies, although I prefer a separate policy personally. I've had home insurance through both State Farm and USAA and know both offer very reasonable rates as well, if are inclined to go that way. Obviously location, insured value and prior claim history will determine your final rate but our policy cost is chump change for lots of warm fuzzies.

    In regards to shipping the ring for a trade/replacement, you would contact WF and they would email you a pre-paid shipping label with appropriate insurance. Once done, they would mail back to you in an insured package so you have protection going both directions.

    https://www.whiteflash.com/confidence/lifetime-trade-up-guarantee/
    https://www.whiteflash.com/confidence/free-shipping/

    FYI, while WF doesn't provide insurance policies, they do encourage their customers to get insurance and have partnered with JM to make the process a little easier.

    https://www.whiteflash.com/jewelry-insurance/
    https://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/faq/what-kind-of-insurance-do.htm
    https://www.whiteflash.com/about-di...als-perfect-circle-jewelry-insurance-1424.htm
     
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  24. Katty01Kat
    Rough_Rock

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    by Katty01Kat » Sep 14, 2019 at 9:57 PM
    Let me throw one more consideration in here! Thoughts about a 2.5 carat "I" or a 2 carat "G". One is Bgd black and one is CBI. HELP!!!!
     

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