Need advice on these two RB stones: 3.14 ct vs 3.42 ct

[metatrix]

Hi everyone,

I was hoping to get your opinions on the following two stones for my engagement ring.

Stone A:
GIA #: 2167350709
From: A brick&mortar stone in Canada. I really like the jeweller.
Wt: 3.14 ct
Measurements: 9.34-9.40 x 5.78 mm
Color: J (Jeweller says he thinks it has a brown tint, rather than a yellow tint, which I actually prefer...it seems to face up more like an I).
Clarity: SI2 (from the map, mostly 5 twinning wisps around the crown, three of them clustered together...could be hidden by a prong?). I have seen the stone both under a loupe and by eye, and it looks eye clean to both myself and my boyfriend. The GIA report says 'additional twinning wisps, pinpoints, and surface graining not shown'. The stone is not hazy or cloudy at all -- very transparent.
Fluorescence: None

Cut Grade: Ex
Polish: Ex
Symmetry: Ex
HCA: 1.8 (VG-Ex-Ex-VG); does not fall within the AGS 0 candidates according to the HCA map.

Table: 58%
Total Depth: 61.7%
Girdle: MED-STK (4.0%); faceted
Crown angle: 35.0 degrees
Pavillion angle: 40.8 degrees
Star %: 50%
Lower Girdle Length: 75%

Optical Symmetry: We viewed the stone through a H&A viewer, and it had very symmetrical hearts and arrows. We are going to go back and view it through the Ideal Scope and ASET (I will try to take photos and post them when I have them).

Price: 38,000 CDN (34,965 USD)
PPC: 12,102 CDN (11,135 USD)

Stone B
GIA #: 1146306663
From: bluenile.ca
Link: http://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-search?pt=setform&track=NavDiaSeaRD#diamonds_pid=LD02583169
Wt: 3.42 ct
Measurements: 9.62-9.64 x 5.98 mm
Color: J
Clarity: SI2. (From the map, most of the inclusions are clustered together on one side of the table, and consist mostly of crystals, and one largish elliptical cloud. The report says "additional clouds, pinpoints, and surface grading are not shown".
Fluorescence: None

Cut Grade: Ex
Polish: Ex
Symmetry: Ex
HCA: 1.6 (Ex-Ex-Ex-VG). Falls just within the AGS 0 range on the map.

Table: 56%
Total Depth: 62.1%
Girdle: MED-STK (4.0%); faceted
Crown angle: 35.0 degrees
Pavillion angle: 40.8 degrees
Star %: 55%
Lower Girdle Length: 75%

Price: 39,081 CDN (35,960 USD)
Bank Wire Price: 38,495 CDN (35,420 USD)
PPC:11,427 CDN (10,576 USD)

Comparison
Basically, for the same price, I could get a 3.42 instead of a 3.14, with almost exactly the same stats. On the one hand, the blue nile stone has slightly better proportions (a smaller table for the CA/PA combination) and therefore a better HCA score, and it falls within AGS 0 range. However, there is no photo of the stone on the website, so it could be cloudy or the inclusions could be visible (especially since there is a largish elliptical cloud right under the table). I also have no clue about the optical symmetry. The BM stone I have seen in person, and it is absolutely beautiful. However, its table is a little big (58%). It's HCA score is still under 2, but it does not fall under AGS 0 (it is just outside of the range). It has great H&A optical symmetry, is very transparent, and a gorgeous pinkish-brown tint, as opposed to yellow, and faces up eye clean and more like an I color. I also like and trust the jeweller (he is *extremely* patient with me), and I want him to custom design our settings as well (and he is offering very reasonable prices for this).

Opinions?

 

[tyty333]

Without knowing whether the BN stone is eye-clean its not worth going through the comparison. Call BN and ask them to find out
if its eye-clean. Good luck...I hope that it is.

Edit - I looked on JA to see if I they had that BN stone but couldnt find it. Is size your main criteria (after a well cut stone)?

I found this...its a little smaller but an SI1 and cheaper.
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/3.01-carat-j-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-35989
Again, you would have to ask if its eye-clean.

Another SI1
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/3.01-carat-j-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-312574

I cant find anything bigger

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I would be very doubtful that many 3 ct SI2 stones will be truly eyeclean and have no light return problems. But the first stone may be a little overpriced. I am seeing 3.14 J SI2 stones on the search tool here for $25-30k. I would try to talk them down on price if you decide to go with that one.

 

[Lorelei]

I would be very doubtful that many 3 ct SI2 stones will be truly eyeclean and have no light return problems. But the first stone may be a little overpriced. I am seeing 3.14 J SI2 stones on the search tool here for $25-30k. I would try to talk them down on price if you decide to go with that one.

Hi Metatrix and welcome!

My thoughts are similar to Ty's and DS, it can be a challenge to find a truly eye clean stone in this size range and SI2 clarity, also there could be issues that cause a loss of brilliance with some inclusions. What I would suggest is this, when you find a stone you think is the one, make any sale final on the diamond checking out with an independent appraiser of your choice. You would want to make sure you weren't caught out by the stone showing transparency issues in some lighting once you get it away from the store, for a purchase of this magnitude, the size diamond involved and the clarity grade, I believe an appraiser's opinion would be invaluable.

This link should help you find some appraisers in Canada.

https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers

What an exciting project, I hope you find a stone that checks out!

 

[metatrix]

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I spoke to bluenile over the phone (I didn't realize I could do this), and according to them it is eyeclean. They are working on sending me a photo of the stone as well as any other reports or info they can get from the supplier.

Regarding the appraisal so that I see it in various lightings -- the jeweller has already told me that I can walk out onto the sidewalk outside his store with the stone in a temporary mount to check the light performance in direct or diffuse sunlight (I will do this next time I view the stone). The lighting inside his store is mostly office-type lighting, and he also has spotlights that he can turn on. Is there any other lighting I should be looking for? One thing that concerns me is that the temporary ring mounting lets a lot of light in from the bottom, which is not accurate to how the diamond will look in a true setting. Can I do anything to help block out the light coming in from the bottom while it is in the ring mount?

He is also bringing in an H colour stone for me as well with similar specs so that I can view the two side by side and compare the colours in various lighting conditions. Perhaps I should ask him to bring in an SI1 for me too? Would that be good enough or do you think I need to go to a VS2 in this size of stone?

I will need an appraisal to insure the diamond anyway, so I suppose it makes sense to make the sale conditional upon it.

Thanks again everyone! I will keep you updated with my search.

 

[Lorelei]

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I spoke to bluenile over the phone (I didn't realize I could do this), and according to them it is eyeclean. They are working on sending me a photo of the stone as well as any other reports or info they can get from the supplier.

Regarding the appraisal so that I see it in various lightings -- the jeweller has already told me that I can walk out onto the sidewalk outside his store with the stone in a temporary mount to check the light performance in direct or diffuse sunlight (I will do this next time I view the stone). The lighting inside his store is mostly office-type lighting, and he also has spotlights that he can turn on. Is there any other lighting I should be looking for? One thing that concerns me is that the temporary ring mounting lets a lot of light in from the bottom, which is not accurate to how the diamond will look in a true setting. Can I do anything to help block out the light coming in from the bottom while it is in the ring mount? It sounds as if your jeweller is extremely accommodating, a very good thing. A well cut diamond will still maximize light return even when set, what you could do is try some of these techniques to help you evaluate the performance, but it's not an exact science! There is a recent thread that's been the subject of much hilarity due to the - understandable- misinterpretation of the advice in one of your's truly's posts! The advice I offered was based on suggestions I learnt years back about viewing diamonds under a desk, the way I wrote it appeared I was saying to crawl under a desk with the diamond to view it that way! But I digress! Here is some practical advice you might find helpful concerning viewing stones that was mentioned by our Diamond Hawk based on some of that advice passed down to Wink from another industry expert.


Diamond_Hawk''OP - the greater variety of light sourcing you can see in person (absent the ASET or IS images) the better idea you will garner on performance. Bring the book, business card, under the desk or any other special lighting situation you would like (I have taken diamonds outside into a dark alcove and then under trees on sunny day in the past''


He is also bringing in an H colour stone for me as well with similar specs so that I can view the two side by side and compare the colours in various lighting conditions. Perhaps I should ask him to bring in an SI1 for me too? Would that be good enough or do you think I need to go to a VS2 in this size of stone? It depends, you might be lucky and find your diamond out of SI2 clarity grades, it's possible SI1 also might suit but if you want to play it ' safer' VS2 might be the place to base your search on.

I will need an appraisal to insure the diamond anyway, so I suppose it makes sense to make the sale conditional upon it. I would do so personally.

Thanks again everyone! I will keep you updated with my search.

 

[Sunstorm]

So far it also sounds to me that you are working with a good, trustworthy jeweler. Of course I cannot know this for a fact but the jeweler does sound accomodating, knowledgeable and helpful to me and has a lot of technology available. Sometimes it can be a plus to work with someone IRL where you can see the stones, compare them and have a good jeweler near you.

My concern about the stone you found online is that it is a large SI2 with crystal inclusions under the table and those will likely be eye visible. Crystals are anyhow one of the worst inclusions in this regard and if they are black they can be quite unslightly. Feathers can also be a concern as to durability. Twinning wisps are one of the best type of inclusions, them and clouds towards the side sound much better and can be covered at least in part by the setting.

The color is a very subjective matter, of course at this size a J will definitely show a tint and some people really do not like a brown tint but again this is totally personal. It is a great thing that you can compare to an H stone too so you can be sure you are comfortable with the color as well. Good luck and please keep us posted.

 

[metatrix]

I have an update....

I went back to see the 3.14 J SI2 and took some photos with my idealscope and my ASET. Here they are. What do you all think?

Idealscope:


ASET:


The diamond itself:


A pic with some fire:

 

[Lorelei]

It looks super and it's huge! If it's eye clean and you have checked it thoroughly as previously mentioned, you might have found your stone....

 

[metatrix]

It looks super and it's huge! If it's eye clean and you have checked it thoroughly as previously mentioned, you might have found your stone....

Yes! I think I have found my stone. I love it so much I didn't want to take it off and I have dreams about it at night! I think it's a very reasonable price as well given that it happens to have perfect H&A symmetry from what I can tell (I looked at it under the H&A viewer, but couldn't get good photos of the hearts and arrows unfortunately). It is $38,000 CDN which according to google works out to $34822.13 USD.

 

[Lorelei]

It looks super and it's huge! If it's eye clean and you have checked it thoroughly as previously mentioned, you might have found your stone....

Yes! I think I have found my stone. I love it so much I didn't want to take it off and I have dreams about it at night! I think it's a very reasonable price as well given that it happens to have perfect H&A symmetry from what I can tell (I looked at it under the H&A viewer, but couldn't get good photos of the hearts and arrows unfortunately). It is $38,000 CDN which according to google works out to $34822.13 USD.

That certainly sounds like it to me! Congratulations!!!

 

[metatrix]

It looks super and it's huge! If it's eye clean and you have checked it thoroughly as previously mentioned, you might have found your stone....

Yes! I think I have found my stone. I love it so much I didn't want to take it off and I have dreams about it at night! I think it's a very reasonable price as well given that it happens to have perfect H&A symmetry from what I can tell (I looked at it under the H&A viewer, but couldn't get good photos of the hearts and arrows unfortunately). It is $38,000 CDN which according to google works out to $34822.13 USD.

That certainly sounds like it to me! Congratulations!!!

Thank you. What are your thoughts on the price?

 

[Lorelei]

It looks super and it's huge! If it's eye clean and you have checked it thoroughly as previously mentioned, you might have found your stone....

Yes! I think I have found my stone. I love it so much I didn't want to take it off and I have dreams about it at night! I think it's a very reasonable price as well given that it happens to have perfect H&A symmetry from what I can tell (I looked at it under the H&A viewer, but couldn't get good photos of the hearts and arrows unfortunately). It is $38,000 CDN which according to google works out to $34822.13 USD.

That certainly sounds like it to me! Congratulations!!!

Thank you. What are your thoughts on the price?

I think that's a very good price, especially as it's from a b&m store, often you will pay more in such circumstances, but I think you did very well indeed.

 

[metatrix]

I think that's a very good price, especially as it's from a b&m store, often you will pay more in such circumstances, but I think you did very well indeed.

Thanks. I found a few cheaper stones online that were comparable, but they all seemed to be inferior in some way. Either they had a small black inclusion, or they weren't as transparent, or they didn't have hearts and arrows symmetry. There was always something that I could point to as a reason that it was cheaper.

The jeweller told me is getting the stone for $34,000 CDN from the dealer, which means he is making $4000 off the transaction (11.8% markup). Is that a reasonable markup in your opinion?

 

[Dreamer_D]

I really like this stone you picked, the 3.14!

There are many things to take into account when evaluating price. Being Canadian you have to think about the risk in shipping a return if you don't like it. For a stone of this value, I think that basically eliminates any BN stones because you really need help with return shipping from a vendor who will offer to extend their insurance to you. As individuals, we consumers in Canada cannot obtain jewelery insurance for shipping beyond $2000. Given that you are considering SI2 stone -- a great plan IMO to save money -- you NEED to be able to see the stones in person and you need to know that you can return the diamond easily, because eye clean SI2s in that size are hard to find.

Also, when comparing your price to online prices, consider this: Although "eye clean" is not technically a contributor to price per Rappaport, in SI2 stones it does in fact seem to influence price. Worse SI2s will be priced much lower, and better SI2s priced higher. Because you cannot know from the online search tool if the stone is eye clean or not, you are not comparing apples to apples when comparing your stone to the whole range of SI2s available. You would need an online comp that is also eye clean.

If you did want to buy from the US then I would only work with a vendor who can select and evaluate the diamonds for you. And even then, I am not sure you would secure huge savings over what you have already found.

So given all of that, even if you paid a little more than you hypothetically could have paid buying online from the US, I think in terms of overall value you did quite well. The stone is HUUUGE!

 

[Dreamer_D]

The jeweller told me is getting the stone for $34,000 CDN from the dealer, which means he is making $4000 off the transaction (11.8% markup). Is that a reasonable markup in your opinion?

There is no way to know if he is telling the truth about his markup No matter how honest he is, that is really not something that is relevant to you. The absolute price you pay is what matters.

 

[metatrix]

I really like this stone you picked, the 3.14!

There are many things to take into account when evaluating price. Being Canadian you have to think about the risk in shipping a return if you don't like it. For a stone of this value, I think that basically eliminates any BN stones because you really need help with return shipping from a vendor who will offer to extend their insurance to you. As individuals, we consumers in Canada cannot obtain jewelery insurance for shipping beyond $2000. Given that you are considering SI2 stone -- a great plan IMO to save money -- you NEED to be able to see the stones in person and you need to know that you can return the diamond easily, because eye clean SI2s in that size are hard to find.

Also, when comparing your price to online prices, consider this: Although "eye clean" is not technically a contributor to price per Rappaport, in SI2 stones it does in fact seem to influence price. Worse SI2s will be priced much lower, and better SI2s priced higher. Because you cannot know from the online search tool if the stone is eye clean or not, you are not comparing apples to apples when comparing your stone to the whole range of SI2s available. You would need an online comp that is also eye clean.

If you did want to buy from the US then I would only work with a vendor who can select and evaluate the diamonds for you. And even then, I am not sure you would secure huge savings over what you have already found.

So given all of that, even if you paid a little more than you hypothetically could have paid buying online from the US, I think in terms of overall value you did quite well. The stone is HUUUGE!

Thank you. This is just the reassurance that I needed. This was exactly my experience with SI2s both in real life and online. The cheaper ones were either not eye clean or they were cloudy or they had terrible optical symmetry. I think I lucked out with this stone because it truly is eye clean, and because it happens to be a H&A even though it wasn't advertised to me as a H&A stone. The twinning wisps are very visible under the loupe or microscope or even the Idealscope/ASET but they disappear completely when you take the loupe/scope away. They also don't seem to affect the transparency or brilliance of the stone in anyway.

No other stone I saw was quite as transparent either. I seem to be not at all sensitive to colour but extremely sensitive to even a hint of haziness or cloudiness. That being said, the stone doesn't look *yellow* to me. It looks more like a warm beige-y white if that makes sense.

And in the end I wanted to avoid the hassle of buying from the internet. This jeweller brought in multiple stones for me and I got to see them all very easily (he is 5 mins from my home). I didn't have to worry about shipping or deposits or insurance or anything like that. And I spent hours examining the stones. I actually went back and inspected this one on three separate occasions! He was *unbelievably* patient with me...I even brought my own lamp to his store to examine the stones under the lighting of my choice, and he let me wear it outside on the side walk as well so I could see it in direct sunlight. *And* he is giving us two weeks to get the cash together, which is very nice of him.

Also thanks for saying it's huge! I won't lie...I wouldn't mind going bigger, but this is as big as my poor bf can afford.