Native cuts

[Barrett]

Did any of you see Jeff Hunts posting on facebook..wish i could link it here but it''s not allowed..sucks..it''s the real deal native cut..guys sitting on the floor with a sideways lap attached to a rod..they are holding whats either emeralds or tsavorites and pushing this stick to turn the wheel like 3 turns while cutting/polishing the stones in there hands..lol..about as native cut as you can get

 

[VapidLapid]

The natives here in New York City use Ultra-Tec V2s

 

[Gailey]

Jason, why not ask Jeff to re-post the picture(s) over here?

 

[Barrett]

they are videos..the other one shows two dops on one lap with a person sitting on each side using one dop for one and one for the others..no measuremnets on the arms just a metal dop attached to a swing arm..like 4 or 5 of these nthings in a row..good example of commercial cutting on that one

 

[Richard M.]

The "natives" in Idar-Oberstein, Germany, were doing precision cuts of colored gems on high-tech jamb-peg faceting machines before any of us were born. They set the standard for faceting quality for at least 100 years, long before computer-generated faceting designs or the "meet-point" method of faceting were dreamed of. They still do world-class work, some of it with modern jamb-peg machines.

There are 3 kinds of gem cuts: good, okay and bad. The term "native cut" is arrogant, elitist and condescending. It is also essentially meaningless.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Richard,

Totally agreed. I dislike the classification too. Under what circumstances and poor tools some guys get individual beauty out of a gem deserves respect.

There is much more craftsmenship in there than having a software calculate a design.

 

[Barrett]

I don't possibly see how someone holding a gem in there hand can in any way can even come close to having any angles, meet points or anything come remotely close to making a gem look halfway decent..the dopped ones maybe like at the commercial cutting house but the 2 or 3 guys faceting the emeralds in there hands..that my friends is native cut..any gemstone that you facet while holding the stone in your hand is not going to be a good gemstone..these are smaller than 5mm being cut in hand..lol..crazy..the jamb peg is predetermined holes so repeatable results are possible at somewhat halfway decent angles but cutting gemstones by holding the stone in your hand ..can't get anymore native cut than that..wow..they are in india by the way..never seen anything like it..figured they at least dopped the stones and used jambpeg like many other countries but cutting gemstones by holding the stones in there hand..well, whatever you want to call it..native, traditional, crappy, etc.. either way it's pretty cool to watch

 

[iLander]

Date: 6/15/2010 4:10:29 AM
Author: Edward Bristol
Richard,


Totally agreed. I dislike the classification too. Under what circumstances and poor tools some guys get individual beauty out of a gem deserves respect.


There is much more craftsmenship in there than having a software calculate a design.

I think I don''t totally agree with the last line. . . I wouldn''t say "more" necessarily, I''d say "different type".

I''m sorry, but I love a real top grade precision cut. It makes the stone sing. I agree that many "native" (give me a new word for native, I''ll use that) cutters achieve amazing feats with primitive equipment, but in my limited stone experience that is the exception, not the rule. I also think these old guys with the primitive equipment are the exception. I think most "native" cuts are actually produced in a factory, and that''s just not as photogenic.

 

[Rockit]

I''ve never thought of using the term "native cut" as being arrogant, elitist OR condescending. It could be, however, that I am just out of the loop (most likely). Chalk it up to my ignorance.

Regardless, how, then, in general discussion, for example, does one distinguish between a stone which is cut using more traditional methods, and one faceted with an assist from modern equipment? Are there preferred, non-elitist terms to use? I do think there are differences in overall aesthetics of each type of gemstone cutting style, and it is useful to be able to identify such differences in discussion.

For what it is worth, I love both traditional (including cabs) and modern style faceting and feel lucky to have both in my collection.

 

[Barrett]

I am pretty sure that back wghen Idar oberstein was in swing back in the 19th century that was precision cutting..well when explorers or gem buyers would travel to mogok and thailand or wherever they would see "natives" ,as the term was used back then to describe indigeneous peoples of no education or primitive society, cutting stones on simple wheels or with crude implements. The term is antiquated for it''s original meaning but it describes a poorly cut or less than perfect gemstone..has nothing to do with "natives" of whatever country not being able to do a proper job..as with the photos ..was it gene posted..from the cutters in Africa using the same machines they use here..just a term which describes a poorly or less than ideal gemstones which is a rollover from the olden days when it was natives(as they were called) cut stones with simple almost stone age tools

 

[Rockit]

I'm sorry, I seem to have missed - or ignored - the negative nuance of the term "native cut." For me, "native cut" does not equate "poorly cut." Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. Less precise faceting... most likely. But, who says that a less precisely faceted stone is a less beautiful or less worthy stone? Not me. There is an assumption of crappyness that I don't think is fair or deserved. However, if that is the way it is out there in gem-businessland, then, the unfortunate terminology is what it is.

I still ask, what terms are acceptable to describe general differences in approaches to faceting? Or, to identify a gem that was cut "over there" (ie, supposed country/region of origin)?

Frankly, IMO, whether one is using a stick and a wheel or a Star Wars laser beam, there is study, skill and artistry needed to transform a rock into a beautiful gemstone. Don't fool yourselves - there are plenty of butt-ugly precision-cut gems.

I suppose (playing Devil's Advocate here) that we could try to stick with Richard M's politically correct descriptions for cuts: good, okay and bad. I can't wait to see the "good, okay or bad" vendor descriptions of gemstones for sale on vendor gem sites...

 

[LD]

The use of the term "native" cut rears it''s ugly head about once a quarter and there''s always a heated debate about whether it''s an acceptable term or not. Some think it''s derrogatory and others disagree. The wording is most definitely used by experienced and respected lapidarists and not by others.

Whether it''s right or wrong, the term is used (generally) to denote a poorly cut gemstone (irrespective of the country that it''s been cut in). To say it''s arrogant etc., is to only read the term in a derrogatory manner rather than looking at the wider meaning. I was vilified on this forum when I first joined for using the word and was told I was rascist which was highly amusing considering I''m a Christian married to a Muslim in a multi-racial marriage and about as far removed from being a rascist as anybody could be!

I get REALLY fed up with people being so PC that we have to think carefully about each and every word we write to ensure that nobody is upset. Whether it''s liked to not, the term "native" cut is used widely in the gemstone world.

Rant over.

 

[Rockit]

I appreciate your very precisely worded rant, LD. I was being a bit provocative. However, given the political nature of all things PS, I''ll let it rest.

 

[T L]

Date: 6/15/2010 2:40:47 PM
Author: Rockit
Frankly, IMO, whether one is using a stick and a wheel or a Star Wars laser beam, there is study, skill and artistry needed to transform a rock into a beautiful gemstone. Don''t fool yourselves - there are plenty of butt-ugly precision-cut gems.

I totally agree that skill and artistry, is needed to transform a rock into a beautiful gemstone. Also remember, it''s not just cutting that is part of that deal. Some facetors (precision or otherwise) will cut a gem''s table along the uglier colored axis, typically to make it a larger carat weight. That really irks me. Polish is also important as well, and I agree that there are some butt-ugly precision cut gems.

IMHO, if cutting is important to you, please do not accept any gem just because it has perfect facet meets, evaluate it for color, polish and luster as well.

BTW Rockit,
Where can one get one of those Star Wars laser beam faceting machines? LOL!

 

[chrono]

I also I recall that it takes more that just cutting “by the book design” for precision faceters. One also has to have the skill and knowledge on how to read the stone for the best way to get around the inclusions while minimizing the material loss, the best way to preserve or enrich the colour while downplaying any natural zoning, and etc. Therefore, this makes for some well done precision faceting or some very poorly done precision faceting.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Rick, I can''t understand why you would consider the term "native cut" is arrogant, elitist and condescending.

The dictionary defines NATIVE as:

native |ˈnātiv|
noun
a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently resident there or not : a native of Montreal | an eighteen-year-old Brooklyn native.
• a local inhabitant : New York in the summer was too hot even for the natives.
• dated often offensive one of the original inhabitants of a country, esp. a nonwhite as regarded by European colonists or travelers.
• an animal or plant indigenous to a place : the marigold is a native of southern Europe.
adjective
1 associated with the country, region, or circumstances of a person''s birth : he''s a native New Yorker | her native country.
• of the indigenous inhabitants of a place : a ceremonial native dance from Fiji.
2 (of a plant or animal) of indigenous origin or growth : pigs are native to China | America''s native black bear.
3 (of a quality) belonging to a person''s character from birth rather than acquired; innate : some last vestige of native wit prompted Guy to say nothing | a jealousy and rage native to him.

I believe when used in the gem industry, the meaning is pretty much the same. Typically it refers to stones being cut in the "native" land they are found in. This is common in Africa and Asia, where many of the stones are cut. It is also true that the labor rates in most of these places is rather low, and therefore it''s quit economical to have stones cut natively. Couple that to the fact that cutting on Jam Peg type equipment is much faster than mast head faceting machines used by most of the Western world, then the labor component of a stone is much less.

I certainly don''t see anything condescending about using the term. Many Montana Sapphires are cut by native Montana residents, as is Oregon sunstone cut by Oregonians. Unfortunately the stone found in my current native area is coal.

 

[VapidLapid]

Gene, Regarding your native stones, can you facet that coal? That stuff is pure carbon, just disorganized diamond, right? What''s the hardness? Is it good enough for daily wear? Could it be cut in an asscher?

 

[T L]

VP,
Not sure if you were joking. . . but
coal is very soft, and while diamond and coal are both pure carbon, they are very different.

Diamond has an very dense atomic structure from tons of pressure in the earth's crust. The atoms are very close together and spaced in perfect alignment, hence causing the incredible hardness it is known for and it's crystalline structure. Coal is and the lead used in pencils are both carbon, but very very soft.

 

[iLander]

Love the coal jokes LOL. If anybody can make coal look good it''s Gene.

I am not liking the native term because I don''t think it takes into account factory cut stones. It implies individuals as opposed to an organized large scale enterprise.

How about we call them Commercial Grade Cuts versus Custom Cuts or Precision Cuts?

 

[Harriet]

PrecisionGem,

I believe Rick is referring to the connotation of "native," not its "denotation."

 

[morecarats]

It is not easy to say anything new about the meaning of "native cut" that hasn''t been said in the last 3 or 4 threads on the topic in the last 6 months. But insofar as "native cut" refers to a method or technology for cutting gems -- as opposed to the geographic location or nationality of the cutter -- it is somewhat analogous to the difference between playing music on the violin vs. the piano. It is a lot easier to get accurate and reproducible results on the piano, and amateurs can make more rapid progress in learning the piano. But a virtuoso can work wonders on a violin, though the instrument is made from very simple materials (wood, glue and gut). In the hands of a mediocre player, the results can be awful, just like some gems cut by amateurs using traditional methods.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 6/15/2010 11:27:13 PM
Author: VapidLapid
Gene, Regarding your native stones, can you facet that coal? That stuff is pure carbon, just disorganized diamond, right? What''s the hardness? Is it good enough for daily wear? Could it be cut in an asscher?

You cracked me up on that one!

I pass a coal processing facility every day on the work to work. I''ll stop and piece up a piece and cut an asscher from it.

Morecarats, I think you will get some strong arguments about that last comparison from keyboard players. I''ll run it by my friends in the Neil Diamond band who play both strings and keys, and see what they have to say.

 

[Indylady]

Date: 6/15/2010 11:06:57 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
Rick, I can''t understand why you would consider the term ''native cut'' is arrogant, elitist and condescending.

The dictionary defines NATIVE as:

native |ˈnātiv|
noun
a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently resident there or not : a native of Montreal | an eighteen-year-old Brooklyn native.
• a local inhabitant : New York in the summer was too hot even for the natives.
• dated often offensive one of the original inhabitants of a country, esp. a nonwhite as regarded by European colonists or travelers.
• an animal or plant indigenous to a place : the marigold is a native of southern Europe.
adjective
1 associated with the country, region, or circumstances of a person''s birth : he''s a native New Yorker | her native country.
• of the indigenous inhabitants of a place : a ceremonial native dance from Fiji.
2 (of a plant or animal) of indigenous origin or growth : pigs are native to China | America''s native black bear.
3 (of a quality) belonging to a person''s character from birth rather than acquired; innate : some last vestige of native wit prompted Guy to say nothing | a jealousy and rage native to him.

I believe when used in the gem industry, the meaning is pretty much the same. Typically it refers to stones being cut in the ''native'' land they are found in. This is common in Africa and Asia, where many of the stones are cut. It is also true that the labor rates in most of these places is rather low, and therefore it''s quit economical to have stones cut natively. Couple that to the fact that cutting on Jam Peg type equipment is much faster than mast head faceting machines used by most of the Western world, then the labor component of a stone is much less.

I certainly don''t see anything condescending about using the term. Many Montana Sapphires are cut by native Montana residents, as is Oregon sunstone cut by Oregonians. Unfortunately the stone found in my current native area is coal.

Really? You''ve never heard the word native used with a condescending connotation attached?

 

[T L]

Okay, I feel like a total dork now that I didn''t 100% fully realize Vapid''s coal comments were a joke. *slaps forehead and shies away in embarassment*

 

[Arkteia]

i guess, one could ask, "can you recut a diamond that has been in a bad fire?"

 

[Deia]

So if native cut = poorly cut stone

and has nothing to do with the location of the cutter...

Would you then also call a poorly cut stone cut in the USA a native cut stone?

 

[LD]

Date: 6/17/2010 4:14:21 PM
Author: Deia
So if native cut = poorly cut stone

and has nothing to do with the location of the cutter...

Would you then also call a poorly cut stone cut in the USA a native cut stone?

I most definitely would.

 

[chrono]

Date: 6/17/2010 4:34:23 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 6/17/2010 4:14:21 PM
Author: Deia
So if native cut = poorly cut stone

and has nothing to do with the location of the cutter...

Would you then also call a poorly cut stone cut in the USA a native cut stone?

I most definitely would.

Ditto here too.

 

[VapidLapid]

Yes. And regardless of where it was cut if it was exceptionally bad I would call it a Savage Cut, Barbaric cuts are only done on the Barbary Coast.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Yes, lets settle on “Barbaric Cuts” for the future. Nice.

I must admit that, in a moment of recent anger, I told a Burmese cutter that his ruby has the shape of something that I usually find in my daughters diapers. He didn''t like it and got his price anyway.