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Mounting procedure

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by nerdbot, May 6, 2005.

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  1. nerdbot
    Rough_Rock

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    by nerdbot » May 6, 2005
    I finally decided on a stone (vendor evaluation and pictures to follow, once the stone is set and everything is settled)! I'm purchasing the setting from a local jeweler, and I was wondernig about how the mounting procedure should work.

    From the beginning of my diamond voyage up until now, I've always been told to never let the stone out of my sight. Some of the jewelers I've gone to have their work area behind a glass cage so I can at least watch them at all times. However, this particular jeweler, while reputable in my town, does not have a glass cage. I won't leave the building while they set the stone, but what are the precauations I should take, or things I should do or say, before handing over the stone to be mounted?

    Or am I being overly paranoid (again)?

    Thanks!
     
  2. nerdbot
    Rough_Rock

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    by nerdbot » May 6, 2005
    I should also mention this jeweler will be charging me a fee of approximately $100 to set a stone that wasn''t purchased from them.
     
  3. Layne
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Layne » May 6, 2005
    Now is the time to trust a jeweler with a good reputation, which he/she has worked many years to earn.
    The price is reasonabe.
     
  4. Garry H (Cut Nut)
    Super_Ideal_Rock
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » May 6, 2005
    If I felt you thought that of me or my staff I would show you the door.

    If you think you can chhose a life partner to give diamonds to, but are incapabable of making a simple decision as to whether a person is a theif then you .........
     
  5. oldminer
    Ideal_Rock
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    by oldminer » May 6, 2005
    If you are the suspicious and/or cautious type, then you should be readily able to re-identify your diamond by inclusions or a laser inscription. If you can't look through a loupe and see a familiar inclusion then have the stone laser inscribed so you can loupe it and see the laser marking.

    Don't leave it with someone who is insulted by your fear or lack of trust. Pick someone who you are comfortable with.....I suppose it won't be Garry Holloway, but he is on the other side of the world and seems to be verrrrrry touchy on this subject.

    Personally, I'd trust Garry to do it without any worry at all. He's one of the good guys.
     
  6. Kaleigh
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Kaleigh » May 6, 2005
    Relax, it''s a reputable jeweler everything will be fine.
     
  7. Garry H (Cut Nut)
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » May 6, 2005
    [​IMG] Thanks Dave.

    I saw a story a day or so ago in the papaer or somewhere about a jeweler in some town in USA who swapped diamonds for CZ.

    He was jailed.
    It made international news.

    It is an irrational fear because few people who are that untrustworthy simply dont survive in our industry.

    It annoys me. And it is Friday night here and I have just helped consume some very fine wine [​IMG]
     
  8. nerdbot
    Rough_Rock

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    by nerdbot » May 6, 2005
    I guess I''m a little confused then. From all the posts I''ve read here, and from all the articles and tutorials I''ve read on pricescope and even the ones online vendors provide, the commom consensus is that it''s better to be in the presence of the appraiser. Even when doing a search for appraisers on PS, many listings mention that "appraisals are done in the presence of client". If none of the listings mentioned this, I would be lead to believe that it is normal to not be there during an appraisal. However, this was not the case, and I (foolishly?) believed that it''s better to be there during an appraisal.

    So why should it be any different when I hand over the stone to be mounted? Or repaired? Especially when they are going to be working on the stone. I''m not so concerned with them switching the stones, I trust they wouldn''t have been in business for this long if that happened. I''m more concerned about damage to the stone. I''ve seen a few posts here, an article on niceice.com, and a few other places, where the stone has been damaged either from mounting or repair work.
     
  9. canuk-gal
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by canuk-gal » May 6, 2005
    HI:

    I am trying to recall whether it is an safety/insurance issue in not encouraging customers where the benchworkers are; nothwithstanding there is frequently little room for extra''s looking on where the actual work is being done; but I''m thinking that the employees are bonded and covered for WCB in case of accidental injury etc, but concerned/curious customers are not.

    Although it has been twenty five years since I worked repairing jewellery in my Father''s shop, I recall very few patrons being allowed in the work area. And while it may be comforting to you to see completion of the actual work, that in itself will not prevent an accident with the materials.

    Now Garry: Can you share with us some names of those fine wines you drink? I am always looking a great suggestion...Is Peter Lehman a decent winery?

    cheers--Sharon
     
  10. mrssalvo
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by mrssalvo » May 6, 2005
    Hi Nerdbot,
    i shipped my ring to Richard Sherwood in Florida to have it appraised and i then shipped it again to Va to have it put in a new setting. Maybe i''m not cautious enough but I feel the vendors I work with are trustworthy and never even considered they might try to switch the stone. If someone gets caught it''s jail time and the loss of everything so not many would risk it. I''m sure your fine using a reputable jeweler and like Dave said learn how to identify your diamond with a loupe and you have nothing to worry about.
     
  11. nerdbot
    Rough_Rock

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    by nerdbot » May 6, 2005
    This is what I get for not completely thinking out my post before writing it. [​IMG]

    I realize my original post basically implied I was thinking my jeweler would switch stones. That''s not the case, as I amended in a later post. Again, I don''t think they would steal it, but I am afraid of damage to the stone. I also realize that being able to watch the jeweler will *not* prevent damage to the stone. I was mixing up two related situations, and I mispoke. I apologize for the confusion.

    The stone is laser inscribed, and I have looked at it under the microscope several times, so I should be able to identify it easily. I definately will take Crankydave''s advice and look at it before and after the work is done.

    Here''s an excerpt from niceice.com''s "Buyer Beware!" page (http://niceice.com/chipped.htm):

    So, let me amend my question. Let''s say my stone is damaged during the setting. Does that excerpt from NiceIce.com pretty much cover all the options I have available at that point? The reason why I ask is because my stone is not insured yet (I''ve been told you can''t insure a loose stone through homeowner''s insurance), so in the event my stone is damaged, I''d like to be prepared beforehand with what to do. I won''t have access to a computer, so I won''t be able to jump on here to ask for help! [​IMG]

    Slightly off topic: Trust is a funny thing. From my previous posts, you guys may think I''m pretty untrusting or paranoid or both. When I asked a good friend, who has purchased several diamonds and is pretty knowledgeable, if I should trust the first diamond broker I met with (the one with no microscope, sarin reports, never heard of AGS, etc) he said that the broker did sound a bit questionable. Then, I asked him if he would ever purchase a diamond online (since I had just discovered PS). He said he would not, given how much money was involved, and not being able to see the stone. Then he asked me what reason did I have to trust any of these online vendors any more than the local, questionable, diamond broker. I don''t know anybody here personally, I''ve never been to any of the e-vendors B&M store fronts, what did I have to build this confidence in buying online? My only reason was that, whenever I research a product before buying, I usually look to internet forums for advice. So, I''ve gotten pretty good at figuring out if I can rely on the opinions of members from a particular forum. Obviously, I trust you guys, otherwise I wouldn''t have bought the stone and be here asking about what to do with it. [​IMG]

    For the record, I too would let Garry work on my stone as well, if he would still have me as a client (and if he were in the US) [​IMG]
     
  12. nerdbot
    Rough_Rock

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    by nerdbot » May 6, 2005
    Sorry! For lack of a better word at the time, I guess. Glass room? Glass work area?

    Besides, where I went to college, the computing facility was called the Fishbowl, since it was surrounded by large glass windows from above, so people could look down on the swarms of little "fishies" frantically trying to survive the semester. [​IMG]
     
  13. Diachi
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Diachi » May 6, 2005
    I have searched and read many threads on this forum and have not come across many regarding not allowing the diamond out of your eyesite...In fact, from what I have read, I came away from them with the idea that I'd rather NOT have it before it is all said and done because everywhere BUT with you, the diamond is insured! We had our diamond (that I am waiting for by the way!) shipped directly from WF to D. Atlas for an appraisal, then it is going back to WF for the setting/final approval pictures, back to D. Atlas for its final insurance appraisal, and THEN to us-the whole time being insured by either the vendor's, the delivery service, the appraisier's insurance. Once David and his staff are done with their final appraisal and give us the replacement value, we will insure the ring as it is shipped to our house. I too am over-cautious but more in losing the stone then thinking anyone will switch/damage a stone. And if they do, I know they will make it right :) !

    A bit off-topic, but I used to work as a vet tech/assistant and we would NEVER let people watch us work on their pets. Not because we didn't give them the very best medical attention as possible but some of the things we had to do to them were NOT pretty and having an emotionally-connected owner looking over our shoulders would have made us unable to perform to the very best of our ability or do what was necessary to treat the animal. Seems pretty similar to me...I could tell you some horror stories!
     
  14. Maxine
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Maxine » May 6, 2005
    I recall a post by Stee (Fedaykin) which suggests that you might not WANT to watch!!!! You might get too nervous to see how the jeweler proceeds in setting your ring......maybe he will chime in here................
     
  15. nerdbot
    Rough_Rock

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    by nerdbot » May 6, 2005
    To be quite honest, I have to agree with you. I too would have preferred to do it that way, but with my budget, the best deal on the setting my girlfriend liked was at this local jeweler. So, I traded a little (a lot?) piece of mind for a few hundred dollars. Knowing what I know now, I would''ve probably waited until I had more money to pay for that piece of mind. [​IMG]
     
  16. PhillipSchmidt
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by PhillipSchmidt » May 6, 2005
    De Ja vu,

    The point Garry made about trust and overt suspicion (all be not in context with nerdbots intent), is very real to many of us who trade on our trustworthyness. The whole thing about switching stones is a bit of a farce, as there is just no reason for anybody to do it. The business doesn''t work that way.

    As far as making a sticky as Dave said out this post or this topic I fully agree. The event where a setter mounts a stone bought elsewhere is becoming increasingly common. Herein lies issues of responsibility for damage, having independant appraisals and the fish bowl :)

    I think Daves point about the importance of discolure regarding any possibility of damage says a lot.

    I can definately reccoment Peter Lehman Shiraz - a very decent winery. A favourite of mine!

    Phillip
     
  17. denverappraiser
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    by denverappraiser » May 7, 2005

    I agree with all of the above that recommend avoiding doing business with suspected criminals. Risk management for potential damage is a completely different subject.


    Any jeweler will have a policy about breakage risk on stones they set and they should be happy to discuss it with you. Many will not assume the risk at all, others will decide on a case-by-case basis. I’ve never met one that will assume all risks on all stones presented to them. As a general rule, the jewelers that include this insurance component are not the cheapest, even if it is usually included ‘free’ with stones that you purchase from them. Show them your stone, show them your mounting and ask them what their policy will be for breakage in this particular case. If you are unhappy with their answers, walk away.


    It is also good policy for you and the jeweler to carefully examine the stone together at the time of take in and identify any prior damage that may be present. This protects both your interest and theirs so they should be happy to oblige. Do the same with the mounting. If there are any pre-existing problems, this is the time to discuss them. Repeat the same process in reverse when you pick it up. Most damage is pretty easy to spot if you inspect the piece under magnification. If you still are concerned that there may be hidden damage, take it back to your original appraiser (who saw the stone prior to sending it to the setter) and they should have little difficulty telling you if it’s wounded.


    I know of no insurance policies that will cover this risk. It''s going to fall on either the jeweler or you. In most cases the risk is low and the jewler is willing to assume it as part of their fee but this is the reason that it''s important to make sure that both of you understand the rules before the work begins.

    Neil Beaty
    GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
    Independent Appraisals in Denver
     
  18. AdaBeta27
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AdaBeta27 » May 7, 2005

    "I saw a story a day or so ago in the papaer or somewhere about a jeweler in some town in USA who swapped diamonds for CZ.



    He was jailed.
    It made international news.

    It is an irrational fear because few people who are that untrustworthy simply dont survive in our industry."


    Garry H, I sure hope that was one of those essobees that cheated me out of my 2cts of diamond earrings by swapping for CZ and cheated a relative's estate by exchanging her large diamond for a much lower quality one. That particular clique was operating between at least 3 states in the USA plus 2 other countries and they DID manage to evade police and survive quite a long while
     
  19. nerdbot
    Rough_Rock

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    by nerdbot » May 8, 2005
    Is it normal to not have this policy in writing? When I asked if they had something in writing concerning what would happen if the stone were damaged while they worked on it, I was told they didn't have anything in writing, but they said they would take care of it. I figure at the very least I'll speak with the owner to get it straight from his mouth (since he's always there anyway), but would it be too much to ask for something in writing? They also mentioned that it'll take 2-3 days to set the stone.

    That makes sense. I have to do this anyway to get the final appraisal for my insurance. But, wouldn't I be relieving the jeweler of responsibility if I walked out of their store with a damaged stone, even if I was going to get it checked out by an appraiser?
     
  20. denverappraiser
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    by denverappraiser » May 8, 2005
    Nerdbot,

    There’s always the possibility for you to damage the piece between the time when you pick it up from the jeweler and when you deliver it to the appraiser but I think your risk of this is fairly low. Most hidden damage, for example a tiny chipped corner on a princess that is hidden inside the boot of a v-prong, is not something you are able to do without either leaving some visible damage to the prong itself. The appraiser should have little difficulty making a reasonable guess about when this damage occurred. A jeweler would be nuts to get into a denial-of-responsibility battle over this. Repair just isn’t that difficult or expensive.

    Let’s look at a scenario. You buy a new diamond and take it to a jeweler who chips it while setting. What happens?


    Option A: The jeweler has a policy to assume liability and the damage is discovered immediately.
    The usual offer is something like this: The jeweler will remove the stone from the mounting, send it to a cutter to repair the damage, send it to the same lab and the same appraiser that you used to examine and assess the recut stone and determine the loss in value. They then repair (or replace) any damage to the mounting and reset the stone properly. They pay all costs associated with this and pay the loss in value directly to you along with a polite and sincere apology for your inconvenience. Alternatively, they replace the stone with another of similar characteristics, as defined by you and your appraiser, and they own the damaged one, which they will repair and resell. As a 3rd alternative, they offer you a cash settlement that somehow resembles the estimated cost of the above procedure. You can negotiate a settlement that allows you to keep the damaged stone or they may simply refund your entire purchase price and they keep it. These details should be spelled out in the jewelers’ breakage policy.
    Option B: Same situation where the jeweler does not assume breakage liability.
    It’s really the same thing only you get to pay the bills instead of the jeweler. This is a little more difficult because most consumers don’t have a pre-existing relationship with a cutter and have less capacity to resell a recut stone if this route is taken but in almost every case the jeweler, the selling dealer, one of their competitors or the appraiser will be able to assist with the details.
    Option C: Same thing where the damage goes undiscovered for a while.
    As soon as the damage is discovered, contact the jeweler. This will either result in it becoming an A or B scenario or they will say that the damage occurred after it left their care and is therefore not their responsibility. You have two options here. Suck it up and take your loss or file an insurance claim. Damage done while in your possession is usually a covered loss and your insurance company is likely to behave just like option A. If they feel that the jeweler is involved, they may choose to go after the jeweler for damages after they pay you but this will be entirely in the background.

    Option D: The icky one. The damage goes undiscovered until you arrive at your appraiser, the jeweler denies responsibility that they otherwise would have taken had it been discovered earlier and the insurance policy doesn’t kick in until AFTER the final appraisal is finished. If necessary you can sue the jeweler using the appraiser as a witness. If you win, it will become an option A scenario and the jeweler will need to pay the appraisers fees as well as the damages. In reality, I’ve never seen this happen. The problem is that this is hugely damaging to the jewelers reputation and preserving their reputation is the reason that they’ve agreed to assume the breakage risk in the first place. Damage that isn’t detected by the shop management when they inspect the job and by you when you pick it up is not going to be not the most expensive case. This is an error in quality control and they would be crazy to duck it at this point. We’re probably talking about a few hundred dollars in damages. Take it back to the jeweler with the appraisers report and ask them to deal with it. If, on the other hand, you DID damage it between the two stops, there will be clues to this that the appraiser can pick up on and the responsibility is yours, as it should be.


    Neil Beaty
    GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
    Independent Appraisals in Denver
     
  21. noobie
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by noobie » May 9, 2005
    Peter Lehman makes a very fine Shiraz for the price (usually less than $20) It's also in an attractive bottle and label (I have friends that pick wines by how attractive the label is [​IMG]) They also make a higher end blend (Mentor) for around $50. ETA: Leasingham makes a nice Shiraz as well especially the Classic Clare, E&E Black Pepper Shiraz is also very good and of course there is always the Penfold's stable up to Grange, Clarendon Hills,Eileen Hardy and D'Arenburg. For value, Chateau Reynella is not bad too. I'm sure Garry can add many more

    On the topic of mounting stones, can't add anymore than what's been said except I'm glad I found a jeweler I can trust. I have no problem leaving stones with him.
     
  22. Garry H (Cut Nut)
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » May 9, 2005
    sorry - have not stayed with this thread.

    The 2 ct earring swap must have been a shocker.
    Did you not have any idea? no hairs on back of neck?

    Noobie re wine - the best from downunder at present is Taylors 2003 Shiraz (Claire valley)
    I bought 5 dozen last week - normally A$18, reduced by $3 and the supermarket had a 20% for more than a dozen.
    Thats A$12 = US$9

    huge nose, fruity, no dirty tanin after taste.
     
  23. nerdbot
    Rough_Rock

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    by nerdbot » May 9, 2005
    Thanks Dave and Neil for the detailed breakdown of scenarios. Knowing what the options are and what I can do for each makes me feel much more comfortable now. Mostly more comfortable with myself than anything. I really hate doing anything that's this important and feeling like I didn't educate myself enough.

    Now, just to wait for the setting to arrive. [​IMG]

    Thanks again everyone!
     
  24. JohnQuixote
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    by JohnQuixote » May 9, 2005
    Ooh.

    Craftydave busts a move [​IMG]
     
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