Montana Sapphire help

[Wgei13]

I recently purchased the following stone from Jeff Hapeman of Earths Treasury. It is 4.37 carats and unheated.



His description was the following

“The sapphire has excellent clarity. There may be tiny inclusions that are visible with a 10x loupe that can’t be seen with the naked eye”

Before bringing it to my jeweler I had noticed two inclusions by eye and after seeing it under the microscope there was clearly one large fissure/bubble looking inclusion along with a section of “sand paper like scratches” on the inside. The second of which creates significant shadowing on on corner of the stone. Both inclusions are also generally in the center of the stone.

The other thing the appraiser said was that she didn’t even believe it was a Montana sapphire due to its size and absolutely perfect cut, which she couldn’t stop complimenting. I reassured her that everything I had read here and elsewhere vouched for Jeff’s cutting skills and his access to some of the best stones Montana produces.

I would provide my own pictures but I’m a terrible photographer and they don’t do the stone justice. The coloring is 100% as advertised and absolutely stunning.

finally though to my question:

Are the inclusions forgivable in this circumstance considering the size, coloring and cut on an unheated Montana sapphire?

I’m also purposefully leaving out the price and would love to hear some opinions on the value of a stone like this.

I will also try to get some pictures later to show the inclusions. From first glance you would never notice a thing, but upon closer inspection they are visible without a loupe and do creating shadowing on about 1/4 of the stone.

Thank you in advance and thank you also to everyone on this board as it has helped me a lot while searching for this stone!!

 

[Wgei13]

realized I could use his own photo to show the inclusions. The red circle shows the “fissure/bubble” I was referring to and the blue square shows the etching/sand paper looking scratches. calling the “fissure/bubble” large may be an overstatement but it is as deep as it is wide in that picture and is very much visible with the naked eye.

 

[elrohwen]

I feel like whether the inclusions are important is such a personal question. If it doesn't impact the color and performance I would be fine with it, but I don't mind inclusions in my stones, especially if I have to look really hard for them. I wouldn't care about those inclusions even in a smaller heated stone because they look very small in the picture you posted.. But other people want cleaner and that's a priority to them and it would bother them so it's such a personal thing. The blue square looks like silk and in an unheated Montana stone you're going to have a hard time not seeing a little silk.

I have no idea where I'd price a stone that large. $10-11k? I recently bought a Montana sapphire and I do feel like Earth's Treasury is generally a bit overpriced compared to some other options, but he has nice stuff.

I wish you'd post some of your own pictures! I would love to see how it looks in person compared to his website picture.

 

[Obscura]

I have a comparatively tiny .85ct round. His cutting is certainly exceptional for sapphires.

He has a great return policy, and since it is clearly visible in his photos as well, it shouldn't be an issue.

It is up to you if it bothers you enough to not love it and worth the price you paid. Remember "eye clean" is usually judged from a distance of 10-12 inches I think?

One thing to keep in mind about the price: You are going to be paying a premium on three things: the popularity of Montana sapphires right now, the rarity of the size, and the precision cutting.

 

[Wgei13]

I will try to take some pictures with my nice camera, but hard to do it while living with my girlfriend and keeping this a secret! Here is an attempt with my phone lit by sunlight through a skylight.

 

[Wgei13]

that attached picture wasn’t meant to post. It was a failed attempt at a picture under my lamp.

 

[Obscura]

For me personally, I think as long as I couldn't notice the inclusions from 6-8 inches, it wouldn't bother me as long as it isn't surface reaching or otherwise compromising stability. Especially in a stone that large. Can you notice them from 8 inches or did you only notice them when it was being inspected at 4? And what did the appraiser say about the inclusions?

As elrohwen said, most unheated sapphires will have some hints of silk. My tiny is "exceptionally clean" even with a 10x loupe, and it still glows in certain lighting due to it having trace silk particles.

 

[Rfisher]

From first glance you would never notice a thing, but upon closer inspection they are visible without a loupe and do creating shadowing on about 1/4 of the stone.

Can you also take a picture and draw on it to show exactly what you mean/are seeing? I think that also would be helpful in understanding what you are saying you see.

edited to add
I don’t think my opinion of purchase price should mean that much to you.
It’s all in what’s currently available in the market.
greenlake jewelry has a decent qty of larger Montana’s you can try to compare yours with.

I am not implying you should return the stone to ET at all. Just adding another venue of comparison available to you if you hadn’t already checked them out.

 

[voce]

I do think your Montana sapphire has exceptional clarity for an unheated Montana. I've two pieces of unheated Montana sapphire, and they're both significantly hazy/silky. The fact that you can see precision cut facets means the material is good clarity.

I think that the picture in post #1 is something like 30x magnification, and the one in post #2 is something between 50x and 60x magnification, way beyond what the typical person would notice. I think the inclusions, while there, will be visible to the naked eye only if you know where to look. In less than ideal lighting, they probably would not be noticeable at all.

 

[elrohwen]

Wow what a pretty stone! Thanks for posting your own pic.

 

[Wgei13]

Thank you all for the responses and compliments on the stone! Definitely aware that’s it’s very unique and definitely understand that it’s extremely rare for a Montana sapphire. While I’ve learned a lot since my search for this stone began, still looking for some extra confidence that this stone is as special is I think it is

Can you also take a picture and draw on it to show exactly what you mean/are seeing? I think that also would be helpful in understanding what you are saying you see.

so this picture I posted earlier actually shows the “shadowing” I was referring to. This top right section of the stone gets dark when viewed from certain angles, hard to say how often, but often enough to notice. It’s the same section as the silky part and the jeweler I showed it to suggested the silk inclusions were causing it

For me personally, I think as long as I couldn't notice the inclusions from 6-8 inches, it wouldn't bother me as long as it isn't surface reaching or otherwise compromising stability. Especially in a stone that large. Can you notice them from 8 inches or did you only notice them when it was being inspected at 4? And what did the appraiser say about the inclusions?

As elrohwen said, most unheated sapphires will have some hints of silk. My tiny is "exceptionally clean" even with a 10x loupe, and it still glows in certain lighting due to it having trace silk particles.

Even at 10x loupe the silk inclusions are quite small and scattered, but as shown above seem to affect the light going through the stone.

while you can’t see the silk inclusions from 6-8 inches away you can definitely see the other inclusion; that is once you’ve noticed it and looking for it.

 

[voce]

I think it's entirely possible whoever created the listing at Earth's Treasury had missed the (eye visible to you) inclusion, as an honest mistake.

Unfortunately for you, unheated Montana sapphires of that size are not seen in the market often, so there's no easy comparables regarding inclusions vs no inclusions.

 

[elrohwen]

If the dark spot in that second picture is something you see a lot, that would bother me. That’s something I would notice whether it’s caused by inclusion or cut.

 

[Rfisher]

So that dark spot you circled that you believe is due to the silk - moves right along and stays with the exact same area when you rotate the stone?
It’s not extinction? Meaning it does move from that one spot. If it is -that’s a whole other subject.
But - that’s besides the point.
If you don’t like the inclusions being visible to your naked eye - you now know you need to have a less included stone.
its all about trade offs of what criteria you are willing to sacrifice.
I don’t know the price you paid, but my gut tells me it’s not inappropriate for the inclusions you are pointing out, given the other stats of the stone.

edited to add.
I have a sapphire with a small area that is noticeably silkier than the rest of the stone and also has titanium needles in that same area. It’s noticeably silkier -but not ‘dark’ like you’ve circled. It just has less scintillation than the rest of the stone.

 

[Obscura]

Yeah the shadowing may be concerning. If it darkens a lot of the time or stays in one spot, that may be something you have to ponder on.

If it's just an occasional, in certain lights and/or an an odd angle that your not going to look at it from once set I would say it's not a big deal. But from photos it's had to tell what that area does in other moments.

 

[MissyBeaucoup]

It looks like a beautiful stone to me! The cutting looks great and I love the very special colors.

Take some time exploring how it looks in different light. In the photo where you’ve circled the darker area, it looks like the light is coming from the other side. What happens when you reverse that? You might get some areas of extinction depending on the tilt. Try putting your back to a north window and looking at the stone on your hand in indirect light.

I think the inclusions are what makes each natural stone unique. It is like a garden in there. Good luck with your decision!

 

[Wgei13]

I think it's entirely possible whoever created the listing at Earth's Treasury had missed the (eye visible to you) inclusion, as an honest mistake.

Unfortunately for you, unheated Montana sapphires of that size are not seen in the market often, so there's no easy comparables regarding inclusions vs no inclusions.

Yeah I've definitely realized it's tough to come up with a comparison to this stone, and I do agree that the inclusion could have been missed as upon looking at it more I'm realizing just how close I had to look to find it in the first place.

If the dark spot in that second picture is something you see a lot, that would bother me. That’s something I would notice whether it’s caused by inclusion or cut.

After looking at it for a long time tonight, shining light in every which way possible it doesn't seem like that dark spot shows up nearly as much as I was thinking. I'm pretty sure I've been spending too much time looking for things wrong with it and missing the beauty of it.

So that dark spot you circled that you believe is due to the silk - moves right along and stays with the exact same area when you rotate the stone?
It’s not extinction? Meaning it does move from that one spot. If it is -that’s a whole other subject.
But - that’s besides the point.
If you don’t like the inclusions being visible to your naked eye - you now know you need to have a less included stone.
its all about trade offs of what criteria you are willing to sacrifice.
I don’t know the price you paid, but my gut tells me it’s not inappropriate for the inclusions you are pointing out, given the other stats of the stone.

edited to add.
I have a sapphire with a small area that is noticeably silkier than the rest of the stone and also has titanium needles in that same area. It’s noticeably silkier -but not ‘dark’ like you’ve circled. It just has less scintillation than the rest of the stone.

After reading this post I dug into extinction in gems quite a bit and it doesn't seem to be the case in this stone, at least not to any degree that worries me. It definitely shows up in the one spot more than any other, but only under pretty specific conditions. I'm wondering why it seemed so much more prevalent when I was looking at it in the jewelry shop today. Wondering if it had something to do with their lighting.

Yeah the shadowing may be concerning. If it darkens a lot of the time or stays in one spot, that may be something you have to ponder on.

If it's just an occasional, in certain lights and/or an an odd angle that your not going to look at it from once set I would say it's not a big deal. But from photos it's had to tell what that area does in other moments.

Definitely seems to be more occasional/in certain lights so feeling better about it.

It looks like a beautiful stone to me! The cutting looks great and I love the very special colors.

Take some time exploring how it looks in different light. In the photo where you’ve circled the darker area, it looks like the light is coming from the other side. What happens when you reverse that? You might get some areas of extinction depending on the tilt. Try putting your back to a north window and looking at the stone on your hand in indirect light.

I think the inclusions are what makes each natural stone unique. It is like a garden in there. Good luck with your decision!

Definitely understand how the inclusions make this stone truly unique! The more and more I look at it and try to be critical of it, the more I'm falling in love with it!


Thanks again to everyone who replied! After reading all your responses and looking at the stone for a long time tonight I think I came to the conclusion that I've really been looking too hard for what might be wrong with the stone instead of all the things that are right with it. If I can spend 5 straight days pulling the same stone out every moment I can and still be fascinated by it and discovering new things about it, then I think it's safe to say that it's something special. I once again tried to take some pictures of it tonight, but for some reason my fancy ass camera couldn't focus on it. I'll try again at some point and hopefully get a better picture for all of you. Then one day maybe I'll share a picture of the ring!

 

[Obscura]

Glad to hear you feel better about your purchase!

It is a lovely stone, good luck setting shopping.

 

[Rfisher]

Glad to hear you feel better about your purchase!

It is a lovely stone, good luck setting shopping.

This!
I hope you do come back with more pictures

 

[elrohwen]

Please come back with more pictures once it’s set! I love Montana sapphires and this one is going to make a stunning ring.

 

[Wgei13]

Thought I’d post the finished product here to say thank you for whoever helped! The inclusions I was worried about are impossible to notice once set and the ring turned out better than I ever imagined! No picture does it justice, but here are two to give an idea!

 

[bespokecarmel]

It’s fabulous! You must be so pleased!

 

[kimberlyqkim]

Thought I’d post the finished product here to say thank you for whoever helped! The inclusions I was worried about are impossible to notice once set and the ring turned out better than I ever imagined! No picture does it justice, but here are two to give an idea!

oh wow what a beautiful finished product!! congrats!

 

[Rfisher]

Congratulations -
it’s beautiful!
and I can’t help it, but initially thought your fiancé was flipping us all the bird

 

[minousbijoux]

Absolutely lovely. Quite a feat to find an unheated Montana of that size and coloration. The setting is gorgeous - totally does the stone justice. Well done!