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lowest price per carat

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
If I wanted to buy a stone, say VS2, equivalent cut (the best of course), what COLOR would be the cheapest? Modifiers included... greenish brown, all shades of brown, yellow, orange, etc. Everything except black - any color that could be evaluated for light performance. We can assume pink, blue, green, and red are out of the running :razz:
 

antelope1

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
Messages
648
My vote is for something in the P/Q/R range because more yellow than that, and it could pass (maybe, with great lighting) for a fancy??

Great question, would love to hear what others think.
 

clgwli

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
902
I thought I read somewhere that around the S-T range is one of the cheapest possible. But I honestly don't know where brown falls into this. I've seen some *really* inexpensive beautiful browns so maybe in that range?

I will say my Y-Z was shockingly inexpensive as well. I mean compared to colorless diamonds. At a local B&M store even the E VS1 stone that was about $1500 set in a simple solitaire was only .59ct while the same price would've gotten me a .90 U-V VS1. When I talked to the guy I told him I was looking for a stone that was "S to T or below" and he thought I said "F or E or so" He was right by the ultrasonic cleaner so I can see why he misunderstood me. So he brought out the .59ct diamond to show me since I told him half carat and above. Then I told him what I wanted and we laughed about it. But both were well cut for a non-branded radiant.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
26,993
How funny you asked this.

I just emailed Leibish www. fancydiamonds.net a few days ago and recommended they add a "Price per Carat" field to query on.
I told them many buyers want the largest stone for their budget.
Also some buyers end up gravitating to the smallest stone for their budget (like me :oops: ) and they'd use that search field too.

They said, good idea, we'll consider it.

I think browns and grays will have the lowest cost per carat.
Also, you have to consider there are two categories, Fancy Colored Diamonds, and the "white" diamonds with the D-Z scale.
I realize some diamonds in the XYZ range come close to Fancy designation, and I suspect if they just barely make it to Fancy color grade they get marketed by a different retail path with much higher prices.

Hopefully someone in the trade can elaborate on the price difference in these borderline stones.
 

ChunkyCushionLover

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,463
Cutting style matters a lot as well.
Most Radiant and CMB(radiant style) will be much cheaper than a RB per carat, a lot depends on yield from the rough.
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
ChunkyCushionLover|1292519575|2798604 said:
Cutting style matters a lot as well.
Most Radiant and CMB(radiant style) will be much cheaper than a RB per carat, a lot depends on yield from the rough.
Well, yes CCL - that's true, but that was a given in my question. I know comparing radiants rb to asschers is going to give different results - but my question was an apples to apples situation. I don't care what cut you pick as long as you apply it across the board. Radiants at DVS2 vs SVS2 or asschers at fancy brown or fancy yellow.

I ONLY want to talk price per carat regarding COLOR. Everything else you can decide as long as it is apples to apples in color price comparison.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
7,796
curve.jpg

The chart above refers to pure yellow.
Brown is generally equal to or less than the lowest price in faint yellow ( like S-T) or even lower.
Once we add modifiers, brown can be more costly- For example Greenish brown is a lot more that straight brown.
BUT- brown still represents a lot of value because a Fancy Brownish Yellow is alot less than Fancy Yellow- and may in fact look more like an Intense Yellow in terms of how much color you'll see- the brown sometimes intensifies the overall hue.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
7,796
Cehrabehra|1292507241|2798454 said:
If I wanted to buy a stone, say VS2, equivalent cut (the best of course), what COLOR would be the cheapest? Modifiers included... greenish brown, all shades of brown, yellow, orange, etc. Everything except black - any color that could be evaluated for light performance. We can assume pink, blue, green, and red are out of the running :razz:
I think this once again brings up the fact that the term "light performance" is a sales slogan, as opposed to a gemological virtue.
Light does not perform in such a way that's quantifiable.
If we use ray tracing to measure how much light is coming out- or other tools to measure the brightness of that light, a D is "better" than a Fancy Vivid.
But many would consider a Vivid far more beautiful.
 

acebruin

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
649
are you asking so you can find a stone for yourself? deciding on which color to get? i would stick with any shades of brown for cheap stones... bang for the buck, and yet beautiful... orangy brown is a nice shade...
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Rockdiamond|1292545510|2799093 said:
Cehrabehra|1292507241|2798454 said:
If I wanted to buy a stone, say VS2, equivalent cut (the best of course), what COLOR would be the cheapest? Modifiers included... greenish brown, all shades of brown, yellow, orange, etc. Everything except black - any color that could be evaluated for light performance. We can assume pink, blue, green, and red are out of the running :razz:
I think this once again brings up the fact that the term "light performance" is a sales slogan, as opposed to a gemological virtue.
Light does not perform in such a way that's quantifiable.
If we use ray tracing to measure how much light is coming out- or other tools to measure the brightness of that light, a D is "better" than a Fancy Vivid.
But many would consider a Vivid far more beautiful.
RD there is more than one way to set parameters and I don't disagree with the parameters you set above. HOWEVER those are not the parameters *I've* set. I could give a crap about intensity of color, especially for THIS exercise. If I want a rb cut like an ACA (though they wouldn't brand the lowest colors I'm certain) and I will accept *any* color and I don't care what color it is even if others think it is ugly, but it will perform just like any other diamond cut equally well - what color is the cheapest? If there are modifiers or colors that are cheaper than ST yellow, I want to know what they are. You say brown is cheaper, is it the cheapest? Are darker browns more than lighter browns? I want to know what the bottom of the color barrel is. Again, assuming nice clarity of VS2 and cut for performance not color retention.

PS the term light performance may be a sales slogan, but it is based on research. I have fought with the superidealists about pigeonholing, but I'll fight with you about dismissing it too :razz: ;-)
 

ChunkyCushionLover

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,463
"I could give a crap about intensity of color"

Well in that case you can get really cheap dark brown with extinction.
But then why bother with a diamond.

The cheapest per carat might be dark brown cut in a round to lighten it up a bit with as much light return as possible.
But it might alternatively be an S-T Yellow in an Oval or Marquise with max yield from shallow rough.

Your question is a bit too theoretical, there are always tradeoffs in colored diamond selection and opposing factors that determine price.
Too dark would generally produce the lowest prices just like in sapphires.
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
so say I found some of the cheapest dark brown rough and had jon cut a perfectly done square AVC out of it or had Brian cut 8 arrows of superideal perfection. Would the fire aspects of the cut be near identical?
 

ChunkyCushionLover

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,463
Cehrabehra said:
so say I found some of the cheapest dark brown rough and had jon cut a perfectly done square AVC out of it or had Brian cut 8 arrows of superideal perfection. Would the fire aspects of the cut be near identical?
No.
The cheapest brown rough rough would be very dark and have extinction, the more efficient round would be brighter and look better, but I doubt you would see much fire from either and they both would be very dark.

Fire and brightness are very much linked, when observing disperion different colored rays are bent slightly more or less so you see more of one color. But if the exit ray is of low intensity due to absorption the stone will appear very dark.

Low Intensity Brightness = Low Intensity Fire
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
7,796
Cehrabehra|1292554844|2799224 said:
Rockdiamond|1292545510|2799093 said:
Cehrabehra|1292507241|2798454 said:
If I wanted to buy a stone, say VS2, equivalent cut (the best of course), what COLOR would be the cheapest? Modifiers included... greenish brown, all shades of brown, yellow, orange, etc. Everything except black - any color that could be evaluated for light performance. We can assume pink, blue, green, and red are out of the running :razz:
I think this once again brings up the fact that the term "light performance" is a sales slogan, as opposed to a gemological virtue.
Light does not perform in such a way that's quantifiable.
If we use ray tracing to measure how much light is coming out- or other tools to measure the brightness of that light, a D is "better" than a Fancy Vivid.
But many would consider a Vivid far more beautiful.
RD there is more than one way to set parameters and I don't disagree with the parameters you set above. HOWEVER those are not the parameters *I've* set. I could give a crap about intensity of color, especially for THIS exercise. If I want a rb cut like an ACA (though they wouldn't brand the lowest colors I'm certain) and I will accept *any* color and I don't care what color it is even if others think it is ugly, but it will perform just like any other diamond cut equally well - what color is the cheapest? If there are modifiers or colors that are cheaper than ST yellow, I want to know what they are. You say brown is cheaper, is it the cheapest? Are darker browns more than lighter browns? I want to know what the bottom of the color barrel is. Again, assuming nice clarity of VS2 and cut for performance not color retention.

PS the term light performance may be a sales slogan, but it is based on research. I have fought with the superidealists about pigeonholing, but I'll fight with you about dismissing it too :razz: ;-)

Great questions Sara!

In terms of pricing: Browns are at the bottom of the pricing ladder.
If they are very light brown ( also known as TLB- or Top Light Brown), they're going to look almost white- and will trade at much higher prices than darker browns.
Once we're at say.."Light Brown" the price is pretty much near the bottom.
When I say "light brown" I mean a stone that is obviously brown- never to be confused for a white.
If we compare the price of a light brown to a darker brown, it would likely be similar.
What will affect the price is the nature of the brown, the way the stone is cut, and the way the stone handles light.
Now, I don't like the term "light performance"- the "research" that goes into this term is 100% proprietary- as opposed to pure science.
But this discussion highlights the fact that the way a stone handles the light makes a huge difference.
For example- as I mentioned, light brown, all the way down to dark brown goods are at the bottom of the price ladder.
As a rough example- we can likely find nicely cut fancy shaped, 1.00ct+- brown diamonds in the $1200-$2000 price range.
If they are very dull- what we might call "bad light performance"- they'll be under $1000.

The color does make a huge difference. If they've got some orange, the price shoots up.
The cut does make a difference.
If they are well cut, the price will be higher.
 

LGK

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
2,975
The U/V light brown VS1 1.5 ct from Good Old Gold, August Vintage Cushion cut, was $4K per carat.

It appears to be really close to the same price per carat for an E I1, same cut.

I mayyyyy have been bad, and have that aforementioned top brown. I'm of the opinion that top brown lower colors can be outrageously gorgeous- this one is. It has a definite pink aspect; in most lights it's a soft peachy color. I've seen several stones that are certed as just "light brown" that definitely include pink in the color mix. And when set in rose gold can look really pink.

For ridiculously good value *and* a lovely color, top browns can be a good color to look at... I personally don't like every one, because a lot of different shades get lumped in there, but the ones with a hint of pink personally I find lovely. With no branded cut premium they can be really reasonable.
 
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