looking for halo e-ring,

[TheSeaward]

Hello!

I'm looking for a halo style engagement ring, ideal round cut, and as close to 2ct as I can get for <$13k or so. Some research on bluenile and pricescope indicates I may be able to get something in the neighborhood of 1.8ct with an ideal cut, VS2, J color for somewhere around $11.5k, leaving some money for the setting. I found a ring very similar to the one pictured below at a local shop in the mall (not a chain store) and they are willing to match wholesale prices.

Are there any other avenues I should be exploring? Used rings? Other online sites?

I'd like to come prepared when I meet with the salesman.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Gypsy]

We can beat anything they have.

Buy this:

Ask for an idealscope image of this one: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.60-carat-j-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-33326

And this one: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.70-carat-j-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-275245 (borderline numbers, could Idealscope out, could not). Price is worth exploring though.

And I highly recommend you go for a higher quality pave setting if you do not want to lose stones after a year of wear. This one by JA is quite lovely and good quality. http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/halo/18k-white-gold-hand-made-pave-halo-engagement-ring-round-center-item-22654 setting is handmade for strength and durability. It is not mass produced junk off an assembly line somewhere. It will be made to order for your stone.

 

[Gypsy]

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough.
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 or under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. James Allen and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.

 

[TC1987]

...I found a ring very similar to the one pictured below at a local shop in the mall (not a chain store) and they are willing to match wholesale prices.

Are there any other avenues I should be exploring? Used rings? Other online sites? ...

You're not very likely to find a "superideal" cut H&A RB on the secondhand market. Most diamonds have not been cut to those standards and those standards are relatively recent. LoupeTroop; the PS Preloved forum under Priceseope Cafe section; diamondbistro web site: Those are your best bets for a private sale, and you're unlikely to find what you are looking for unless you just happen to be in right place @ exact right time. Consignment at either of the people who used be in biz as Jewels by Erica Grace is 2 more places to look.

We had discussions here within the past year, saying that retail B&M stores try for about 30% markup iirc. That's more than the online vendors, first. Second, except for an AGS affiliated jeweler here, and the Hearts On Fire jeweler, I have never seen any stones in a B&M store that could compare with what I bought from GoodOldGold and Brian Gavin. So, you might be offered lesser stones at higher prices than you'd pay at PS> And no vendor sells at "wholesale."

eta: If you haven't looked at J compared to say, E - G or H, be aware that J color might be too tinted for some people. Also it might contrast with the higher color melee diamonds used in mountings. The smaller pave / melee stones will look different from a larger diamond, anyhow. But just be aware that the J center might look more yellow than some bright white sidestones. That look bothers some people.

 

[TheSeaward]

Thanks for the excellent tips.

Regarding the idealscope, I don't feel I am qualified to be a personal judge of how a diamond looks or performs. Can you ask for those at a B&M? If not, I'll try to go with an AGS0, and/or HCA <2. If the store is touting"ideal" cut diamonds, are these equivalent somehow?

I will keep in mind J may be too colored also.

I would like to use these data points from bluenile and pricescope to negotiate the B&M price, as I'd prefer just to get it all done at one place.

Also, I will try to get a higher quality pave (the ring would be made around the stone based from a standard design, according to the store). The store is David and Sons in San Diego, if anybody has an local experience with them.

 

[WillyDiamond]

You can get it "all" done with PS vendors, save money and get higher quality stones
Best of luck

 

[Gypsy]

No if a store is touting ideal it is not equivalent. You wouldn't believe the stuff most jewelers thinks is ideal. And 99% of it is not.
Most jewelry stores kinda suck, and won't carry AGS0. They will not have idealscopes. But the vendors we recommend do.
You can use the HCA. But again stick to GIA Ex only. And the HCA is NOT a selection tool. It is a rejection tool.
If a jeweler tries to sell you an EGL or other lab graded stone. Walk away. AGS or GIA only.
I HIGHLY suggest you put the two stones I found for you on hold. It is no obligation no cost. JA will get you idealscope images while it is on hold (3 days). And they have a 60 day no questions asked return policy.

They are going to give you the best bang for your buck. Especially if that 1.7 has a nice idealscope. And the setting at JA will give you the quality you need in something that is worn everyday.

We do this day in and day out. Take our advice and save yourself a headache.

 

[WillyDiamond]

Hey Op, listen to Gypsy, very smart lady!!!

 

[TheSeaward]

I did look at some EGL and GIA diamonds and the EGL diamonds were priced much lower for the size so I'd like to find out more about why these are so frowned upon. Gypsy, I see the point you and others are trying to make about GIA vs EGL and I value your expertise, but I don't quite understand the argument. If I need an idealscope to inspect the diamond either way, then a GIA rating of ideal cut doesn't seem like a guarantee of anything, so why should I pay a premium if I still have to "grade" it myself? Better to hunt through the bargain bin for a good performing diamond, no?

Are you saying that a diamond that is at the highest EGL level (call it ideal or whatever) AND has HCA <2 could still have major light performance problems? Is there is also a chance that the EGL diamond could have great light performance, and that they were lax only on color and clarity?

When you say "AGS or GIA only", are you thinking about resell value or are you saying this is a way to shortcut having to see bad stones that would get by in the EGL process? Surely you are not saying all stones that are EGL certified are not worth purchasing? I would think that every diamond has an appropriate price regardless of who certified it. My expectation after reading about this is that sending an EGL stone to get GIA certified may result in a lower GIA rating, which would have been reflected in the lower price of an EGL diamond anyway.

 

[Gypsy]

Here you go: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
Read that.
EGL USA (LA and other US labs) are the only vaguely reputable EGL labs. The rest are pure junk.


Tell me this.

If you are a diamond broker or cutting house and you have a batch of diamonds for grading. And they are nice stones. WHY would you send them to a lab that trades at a HUGE discount (EGL USA, the best of them trades at a 10-15% discount)? Instead of sending them to GIA or AGS where they would trade at a higher price?

Is it because you want to lose money?

NO.

Is it because you are stupid?

NO.

SO why? Because it makes you MORE money. HOW? Well if you get those stones of your accurately graded by the GIA or AGS, then they will come back with color/clarity/cut that results in a lower price. If you send them to a crappy lab that is known for loose grading they will come back at a higher color/clarity/cut that more than COMPENSATES for the fact that the crappy lab report trades at a 15% discount. So what does that mean? If you sent that stone to GIA it would come back as a grade that would devalue the stone more than the 15% the EGL certification already does.

EGL certifications are not carried by truly reputable jewelers who care about the quality of their merchandise and their customers. Why? Because they know that EGL diamonds take advantage of customer's ignorance and project an appearance of false value that ultimately rips the customer off.

How does it do that?

EGL is on AVERAGE 2 grades off in color. AVERAGE, do you know what that means? That means some are accurately graded, some are as far as 4 grades off, and some are 3 or 2 grades off. There's no way to know. The only thing they are consistent on is clarity. Even their actual specs of the diamonds (angle information, etc.) can be off. And their cut evaluations are very loose. So you have a piece of paper that is largely useless. That inflates the value of the stone because of it's loose grading.

If you want to rip yourself off... go ahead.

But read the thread I posted for you. And take note of the sheer number of highly accredited independent appraisers that say not to buy from EGL. Pay attention to that "Vendor" badge PS makes the vendors put on their posts-- so you can see what those actually IN the trade actually think of EGL.

Then tell me if you want an EGL stone.

 

[Todd Gray]

Pay attention to that "Vendor" badge PS makes the vendors put on their posts-- so you can see what those actually IN the trade actually think of EGL.

Then tell me if you want an EGL stone.

Okay, I'll bite...

In the backroom, we used to refer to them as "European Guess-at-it Laboratory" with exception of EGL-LA / PGL which actually was more reliable than the other EGL franchises... to the extent where EGL-LA was actively trying to block the sale of any diamonds graded by EGL franchises outside the country from being sold in the U.S., because the poor grading standards were damaging his brand - but they are still sold all over the place... and their use of terms like Tolkowsky Cut, and their concept of what is and is not Hearts and Arrows is "Uh-Mazing!" in my personal opinion.

As a diamond buyer by profession, it comes down to a matter of being able to be reasonably confident that I'm likely to agree with the grade of diamonds which we're paying to have shipped in for physical evaluation, and which we will then be representing to our clients based upon that grade, if the diamond meets our selection criteria... The rejection rate with EGL graded diamonds was so high, that we simply informed the cutters who we worked with, that if they wanted us to even consider the diamonds which they produced, they had to be graded by the AGSL, GIA, or the HRD out of Belgium.

By the way, we don't have any nicknames for the AGSL, GIA, or HRD, they're just the AGSL, GIA, and HRD, something to think about

 

[TheSeaward]

Ok I will answer the questions you posed even though you are only asking for my opinion since I cannot speak on behalf of the motivations of all the dealers out there. Based on the thread you sent, it seems a few are saying they are happy with their EGL diamonds and most are saying buyer beware. Why would a dealer choose an EGL diamond you ask? Perhaps they feel that the market is much stronger for down to J and VS2 rated diamonds but not lower than that, due to prevalent consumer marketing of such. Now, if you want to offer more price points for diamonds of any certain size, you will either need to offer what are perceived as inferior GIA diamonds or offer EGL certed diamonds that are effectively the same diamonds. This expands the offerings you can make to consumers looking for specific sizes at specific costs, which increases revenues. You are saying that there is an additional factor where the dealers believe they can charge even more on top of the 15% loss in value from EGL due to customer perception. Fair enough, I agree with that. But, GIA cert values are also propped up by the perception of being superior. The dealer can take advantage of that as well. The only thing a consumer has is lots of alternative quotes for similar diamonds. More on the efficient market:

Without considering the consumer yet, it makes sense to say wholesalers and dealers all know exactly what diamonds are worth and therefore pay what they are willing to pay for them and still run a business. If the dealer has purchased his EGL diamond at X dollars and is willing to part with it at X dollars plus a percentage markup, the value of the diamond IS X. The consumer should try to get the diamond as close to X as possible, regardless of what cert it has. The price the dealer paid for the diamond must be regarded as the most accurate pricing available since both they and the wholesaler they purchased from are in the best position to judge a diamond's value and are operating in an efficient market where both parties have all information. They have the information on the markets on both sides, which consumers and casual observers do not. Now to the argument of inaccurate EGL certs:

It's a suspect argument to say that EGL is not graded strictly and their evaluations are up to 4 grades off. Let me ask everyone this: Could a multimillion dollar organization risk their business being willy nilly with all their gradings in both directions? Could dealers and wholesalers even know how many $'s of diamonds they have in inventory if the cert was so loose in both directions? More likely, EGL is consistently dependably softer by a grade or two in specific categories, which would allow them to conduct consistent and reliable business with all of the dealers/wholesalers out there, which they obviously do. If a dealer could not trust an EGL cert to mean SOMETHING, then they would not be able to use them because they would never know what they themselves are getting, thus would not be able to consistently profit from EGL diamonds. The only way this business would be able to operate is if consumers did not know EGL is a less highly regarded cert and were consistently ripped off by dealers with them. Now is it one or the other (dealer consistently profits or, dealers have no idea what their EGL stones are worth)? The former, I think we would all agree. I am not arguing that GIA and EGL certs are equivalent, but they must both be consistent enough to use for business and the prices paid for these must reflect any risk taken on by inconsistencies in the reports. THAT is the price a dealer pays for a stone. The consistency of a grading standard is what allows it to be used in business and EGL is being used.

Now, the question of whether you are saying that it is not possible to pay a fair price for an EGL certified stone has not been answered. Do you think that is possible?

 

[WinkHPD]

Ok I will answer the questions you posed even though you are only asking for my opinion since I cannot speak on behalf of the motivations of all the dealers out there. Based on the thread you sent, it seems a few are saying they are happy with their EGL diamonds and most are saying buyer beware. Why would a dealer choose an EGL diamond you ask? Perhaps they feel that the market is much stronger for down to J and VS2 rated diamonds but not lower than that, due to prevalent consumer marketing of such. Now, if you want to offer more price points for diamonds of any certain size, you will either need to offer what are perceived as inferior GIA diamonds or offer EGL certed diamonds that are effectively the same diamonds. This expands the offerings you can make to consumers looking for specific sizes at specific costs, which increases revenues. You are saying that there is an additional factor where the dealers believe they can charge even more on top of the 15% loss in value from EGL due to customer perception. Fair enough, I agree with that. But, GIA cert values are also propped up by the perception of being superior. The dealer can take advantage of that as well. The only thing a consumer has is lots of alternative quotes for similar diamonds. More on the efficient market:

Without considering the consumer yet, it makes sense to say wholesalers and dealers all know exactly what diamonds are worth and therefore pay what they are willing to pay for them and still run a business. If the dealer has purchased his EGL diamond at X dollars and is willing to part with it at X dollars plus a percentage markup, the value of the diamond IS X. The consumer should try to get the diamond as close to X as possible, regardless of what cert it has. The price the dealer paid for the diamond must be regarded as the most accurate pricing available since both they and the wholesaler they purchased from are in the best position to judge a diamond's value and are operating in an efficient market where both parties have all information. They have the information on the markets on both sides, which consumers and casual observers do not. Now to the argument of inaccurate EGL certs:

It's a suspect argument to say that EGL is not graded strictly and their evaluations are up to 4 grades off. Let me ask everyone this: Could a multimillion dollar organization risk their business being willy nilly with all their gradings in both directions? Could dealers and wholesalers even know how many $'s of diamonds they have in inventory if the cert was so loose in both directions? More likely, EGL is consistently dependably softer by a grade or two in specific categories, which would allow them to conduct consistent and reliable business with all of the dealers/wholesalers out there, which they obviously do. If a dealer could not trust an EGL cert to mean SOMETHING, then they would not be able to use them because they would never know what they themselves are getting, thus would not be able to consistently profit from EGL diamonds. The only way this business would be able to operate is if consumers did not know EGL is a less highly regarded cert and were consistently ripped off by dealers with them. Now is it one or the other (dealer consistently profits or, dealers have no idea what their EGL stones are worth)? The former, I think we would all agree. I am not arguing that GIA and EGL certs are equivalent, but they must both be consistent enough to use for business and the prices paid for these must reflect any risk taken on by inconsistencies in the reports. THAT is the price a dealer pays for a stone. The consistency of a grading standard is what allows it to be used in business and EGL is being used.

Now, the question of whether you are saying that it is not possible to pay a fair price for an EGL certified stone has not been answered. Do you think that is possible?

Absolutely, EGL has been doing it for as long as I can remember. They absolutely depend on both the public and the average retail jeweler to either not know about it, or more likely in the case of the jewelers, not care about it. The last time I was in Vegas was I believe two years ago. At that time the average discount for EGL US papered diamonds was 28%. The average discount for EGL Israel was 48%.

Why, because the wholesale vendors and the smart retailers KNOW how bad the toilet paper is on those diamonds. They also know that the vast majority of the public does not so they can get larger margins on junkier diamonds.

I wish you were right, but you are wrong. I have NO IDEA what I might be getting when I order an EGL diamond. Sometimes they might be spot on, but don't be holding your breath for that. Most times they are not, but you never know how far or close they will be to what I would grade the diamond to be until I have the diamond in my hands and the time to grade it myself. If I wished to waste that much time I would just take the day off and go fishing or hunting or skiing or kayaking or playing with my grand children. I made the decision many years ago that EGL papers were not what I wanted to sell, whether or not they were correct. Even if they were, why would I sell something that would degrade my credibility?

You are acting as if you think that the discount is fixed. The numbers I quoted are AVERAGES. The actual numbers fluctuate wildly as does the price for any given size and clarity GIA XXX graded diamond. Depending on minor variation in cutting and the costs and location of the wholesaler the price of a GIA 1ct diamond of x color and x clarity can swing incredible amounts. I just went to Rap to search for a 1ct G-VS1. At a conservative markup the prices ranged form $6,707 for the cheapest stone (a real winner with a 40.6 pavilion angle and a 35.5 crown angle, blech) to $9,510 which frankly with a 41.4 Pavilion angle and a 33 crown is not my cup of tea either. This is a net swing of 41.79% just with GIA XXX. Now you want me to guess with adding in the uncertainty of EGL?

NO THANK YOU!

My job, as a retail jeweler, based on the Internet (I sell to the public, therefor by definition I am a retailer, no matter if I sell below my cost) is to sort through the garbage that is offered even under the GIA XXX rating and find diamonds that have VALUE. And trust me, in the sort I just pulled there were 49 diamonds on the market today. I guarantee you that there are many of those 49 diamonds that cost more than the cheapest one that have FAR GREATER value. Since I can expect that most of the grades will be accurate to what I think when I see them, I can reasonably expect to advise my clients as to which are worth calling in to see.

With an EGL papered diamond I could not begin to make the same assessment based on the paper. Thus I will leave those who do not care about quality control to sell such garbage.

Not really. I suppose if you kiss enough frogs you could find one or two, I just do not enjoy kissing frogs.

Wink

 

[msop04]

Ok I will answer the questions you posed even though you are only asking for my opinion since I cannot speak on behalf of the motivations of all the dealers out there. Based on the thread you sent, it seems a few are saying they are happy with their EGL diamonds and most are saying buyer beware. Why would a dealer choose an EGL diamond you ask? Perhaps they feel that the market is much stronger for down to J and VS2 rated diamonds but not lower than that, due to prevalent consumer marketing of such. Now, if you want to offer more price points for diamonds of any certain size, you will either need to offer what are perceived as inferior GIA diamonds or offer EGL certed diamonds that are effectively the same diamonds. This expands the offerings you can make to consumers looking for specific sizes at specific costs, which increases revenues. You are saying that there is an additional factor where the dealers believe they can charge even more on top of the 15% loss in value from EGL due to customer perception. Fair enough, I agree with that. But, GIA cert values are also propped up by the perception of being superior. The dealer can take advantage of that as well. The only thing a consumer has is lots of alternative quotes for similar diamonds. More on the efficient market:

Without considering the consumer yet, it makes sense to say wholesalers and dealers all know exactly what diamonds are worth and therefore pay what they are willing to pay for them and still run a business. If the dealer has purchased his EGL diamond at X dollars and is willing to part with it at X dollars plus a percentage markup, the value of the diamond IS X. The consumer should try to get the diamond as close to X as possible, regardless of what cert it has.

This is extremely incorrect. This may be what the dealer wants you to believe, because It is the dealer who has to get $X -- to pay for the stone and make a profit. The consumer is at the mercy of the price the dealer paid and the markup said dealer wishes to make on the diamond. The reason some dealers push EGL stones is that they know the grading is soft. A stone that would accurately be graded (by GIA/AGS) as a K/SI1, with and EGL cert of H/VS1 for a lot more money than it's worth. Why? Because the crap cert just said it was a more valuable stone, when in reality it is not. Many people wouldn't know the difference and just think they are getting a better deal on a whiter, less-included stone than it actually is. When in reality, they've paid more money for the EGL cert than the stone would have been sold for if graded by GIA/AGS as the K/SI1. The consumer is the loser in this scenario.

The price the dealer paid for the diamond must be regarded as the most accurate pricing available since both they and the wholesaler they purchased from are in the best position to judge a diamond's value and are operating in an efficient market where both parties have all information. They have the information on the markets on both sides, which consumers and casual observers do not. Now to the argument of inaccurate EGL certs:

It's a suspect argument to say that EGL is not graded strictly and their evaluations are up to 4 grades off. Let me ask everyone this: Could a multimillion dollar organization risk their business being willy nilly with all their gradings in both directions? Could dealers and wholesalers even know how many $'s of diamonds they have in inventory if the cert was so loose in both directions? More likely, EGL is consistently dependably softer by a grade or two in specific categories, which would allow them to conduct consistent and reliable business with all of the dealers/wholesalers out there, which they obviously do. If a dealer could not trust an EGL cert to mean SOMETHING, then they would not be able to use them because they would never know what they themselves are getting, thus would not be able to consistently profit from EGL diamonds. The only way this business would be able to operate is if consumers did not know EGL is a less highly regarded cert and were consistently ripped off by dealers with them.

Bingo! This is exactly the case. Most consumers have no idea, and only know what has been to to them by... *wait for it* ... the DEALER. I think you are putting way too much misguided trust in said dealers. They know EXACTLY what they're doing. And, if for some reason they don't, then they are just not educated and you shouldn't risk such an expensive purchase on their lack of knowledge.

Now is it one or the other (dealer consistently profits or, dealers have no idea what their EGL stones are worth)? The former, I think we would all agree. I am not arguing that GIA and EGL certs are equivalent, but they must both be consistent enough to use for business and the prices paid for these must reflect any risk taken on by inconsistencies in the reports. THAT is the price a dealer pays for a stone. The consistency of a grading standard is what allows it to be used in business and EGL is being used.

Now, the question of whether you are saying that it is not possible to pay a fair price for an EGL certified stone has not been answered. Do you think that is possible?

Although I can see where you're coming from, your reasoning isn't true. There are no "deals" in diamonds. You get what you pay for. GIA and AGS are light years ahead of EGL. Are EGL stones bad? No. But their certs may not be accurate. Listen to Gypsy. She is extremely knowledgeable in the diamond arena. You do not know better.

 

[msop04]

Thanks, Wink!! ...great explanation!

 

[msop04]

I think this is a perfect example of why it pays to be an informed consumer -- I wish everyone could find PS prior to their diamond purchases.

 

[WinkHPD]

Thanks, Wink!! ...great explanation!

Thank you for the kind words.

Wink

 

[TheSeaward]

Ok very interesting food for thought. Thanks for the help everyone!