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limits of sarin? and GIA query

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Cehrabehra

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DG in Blue, CB in Red:


There are so many variations of Cushion patterns that the GIA ''claim'' they can''t copy the faceting plot for every odd faceting arrangement out there....
Pity, they sure know how to charge for grading $$$$$$$$$$$!

I say a big old PSHAW! They have to run a sarin to get the angle info they get in the first place - how freaking hard would it be to print up the 3D plot of the pavillion on their cert when they print up all of the *other* info on it.
Okay it took me all of like 2 minutes to make this up using my sarin, if they had the program already set up it could insert and print the plot of the actual stone right onto their grading certificate. And they could do it for the side as well... and I suppose you could argue that the sarin isn''t 100% accurate but they could throw in disclaimers, at least it would be *vastly* more accurate than the 100% NOT accurate generic plots they use!


I dont think Sarin can read and draw every type of "fancy shaped faceting arrangement out there if it is not somehow in their memory!!
But i may be wrong...



So I ask all of those in the know, does GIA use sarin to acquire the angles etc for the stones they grade or something else? And assuming they use sarin, is there a type of cut that cannot have a plot created?
 

strmrdr

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sarin needs a basic facet layout to match againt to get any kind of accuracy out of the measurements.
Also gia preprints the reports and more layouts means more boxes of blank reports laying around.
only the grades and numbers and marks are printed at the time its issued everything else is pre-printed.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 4/14/2007 5:44:47 PM
Author: strmrdr
sarin needs a basic facet layout to match againt to get any kind of accuracy out of the measurements.
Also gia preprints the reports and more layouts means more boxes of blank reports laying around.
only the grades and numbers and marks are printed at the time its issued everything else is pre-printed.
Thanks storm, I did not know this but it seems both reasonable and fishy to me LOL Kinda like a cheat... "hey buddy I''ll show you what your stone looks like but first tell me what it looks like" LOL

As for the printing, it doesn''t surprise me that they preprint everything but if you were to tell me they *had* to I''d be like yeah whatever... BS. They can add whatever the heck they want to their precious "preprinted" certs, and I STILL think they should include an accurate plot of the stone on it. Yet another example of a round driven economy.
 

strmrdr

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Date: 4/14/2007 7:45:53 PM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 4/14/2007 5:44:47 PM
Author: strmrdr
sarin needs a basic facet layout to match againt to get any kind of accuracy out of the measurements.
Also gia preprints the reports and more layouts means more boxes of blank reports laying around.
only the grades and numbers and marks are printed at the time its issued everything else is pre-printed.
Thanks storm, I did not know this but it seems both reasonable and fishy to me LOL Kinda like a cheat... ''hey buddy I''ll show you what your stone looks like but first tell me what it looks like'' LOL

As for the printing, it doesn''t surprise me that they preprint everything but if you were to tell me they *had* to I''d be like yeah whatever... BS. They can add whatever the heck they want to their precious ''preprinted'' certs, and I STILL think they should include an accurate plot of the stone on it. Yet another example of a round driven economy.
preprinting allows them to add anti-couterfitting stuff to the reports.
looking over my cert its clear why they do it that way.
The cost of printing them one by one that way would be way put there.
As too adding the diagram later yea it could be done but it adds more hassle.
It also makes counterfitting easier by allowing one to take a report for another shape and changing it.
While it seems easy on the surface the technology involved is really wheels within wheels that all tie together.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 4/14/2007 8:01:22 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 4/14/2007 7:45:53 PM
Author: Cehrabehra


Date: 4/14/2007 5:44:47 PM
Author: strmrdr
sarin needs a basic facet layout to match againt to get any kind of accuracy out of the measurements.
Also gia preprints the reports and more layouts means more boxes of blank reports laying around.
only the grades and numbers and marks are printed at the time its issued everything else is pre-printed.
Thanks storm, I did not know this but it seems both reasonable and fishy to me LOL Kinda like a cheat... ''hey buddy I''ll show you what your stone looks like but first tell me what it looks like'' LOL

As for the printing, it doesn''t surprise me that they preprint everything but if you were to tell me they *had* to I''d be like yeah whatever... BS. They can add whatever the heck they want to their precious ''preprinted'' certs, and I STILL think they should include an accurate plot of the stone on it. Yet another example of a round driven economy.
preprinting allows them to add anti-couterfitting stuff to the reports.
looking over my cert its clear why they do it that way.
The cost of printing them one by one that way would be way put there.
As too adding the diagram later yea it could be done but it adds more hassle.
It also makes counterfitting easier by allowing one to take a report for another shape and changing it.
While it seems easy on the surface the technology involved is really wheels within wheels that all tie together.
I get all of that, the GIA certificates are beautiful fancy things that would be difficult to duplicate, sure. But they also look laminated or *something* and if they can print specific info about a diamond, they can print the basic blueprint as well. They can preprint all that is necessary to preprint and add the rest later.

You of course nailed with with the "hassle" part... I''m like 95% sure that''s the only reason... but if they''re providing a service, shouldn''t they consider providing a more complete service? They have that info already anyway. I know that this is a fairly unique-to-cushion sort of issue... we all can imagine the look of 70% lgf or 80% or whatever, but cushions have such a wild variety of shapes and facet structures, it''s a bloody shame they don''t do more for them.
 

strmrdr

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23,295
Is that the labs job or the vendors job to find the specific pattern you want?
I think its the vendors job.....
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 4/14/2007 4:18:33 PM
Author:Cehrabehra

DG in Blue, CB in Red:


There are so many variations of Cushion patterns that the GIA ''claim'' they can''t copy the faceting plot for every odd faceting arrangement out there....
Pity, they sure know how to charge for grading $$$$$$$$$$$!


I say a big old PSHAW! They have to run a sarin to get the angle info they get in the first place - how freaking hard would it be to print up the 3D plot of the pavillion on their cert when they print up all of the *other* info on it.
Okay it took me all of like 2 minutes to make this up using my sarin, if they had the program already set up it could insert and print the plot of the actual stone right onto their grading certificate. And they could do it for the side as well... and I suppose you could argue that the sarin isn''t 100% accurate but they could throw in disclaimers, at least it would be *vastly* more accurate than the 100% NOT accurate generic plots they use!


I dont think Sarin can read and draw every type of ''fancy shaped faceting arrangement out there if it is not somehow in their memory!!
But i may be wrong...



So I ask all of those in the know, does GIA use sarin to acquire the angles etc for the stones they grade or something else? And assuming they use sarin, is there a type of cut that cannot have a plot created?
Hi C,
It is an excelent question.

This image below is from a Sarin scan of a quite large stone.

All the facets meet at the culet, and the 2 extra facets (one highlighted in red) are the result of a bad scan. I believe this facet model was in theis suppliers Sarin modelling - but the scan is not one any lab would want to put on thei reports.

Helium will do a much better job because it has a facet matching capacity and handles the azimuth twist errors like this one much better. But for all sorts of reasons labs, especially American labs, seem not to want to throw out theiir old scanners and buy a few new ones.

Other issues of politics also play out - often labs do not want to show us the little extra facets an things that might stop people buying diamonds (which is kinda funny - except it is sad).
 

Cehrabehra

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Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 4/15/2007 1:58:22 AM
Author: strmrdr
Is that the labs job or the vendors job to find the specific pattern you want?
I think its the vendors job.....
bah - its a freaking tool storm, the vendor can use it, I can use it, GIA could use it to accurately place the inclusions. What the heck is the lab for anyway? To provide information that says this is what this stone is. I think your question is irrelevant. We all weed through stones left and right in spite of having vendors willing to do so. And for those of us who have sought out cushions (and I imagine if you went out and tried to explain to *many* jewelers out there that you wanted a step or drop or whatever they''d blink at you and hand you a princess.... ) to me having accurate info on cushion plots is the same as having accurate on how many chevrons on a princess.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 4/15/2007 4:18:12 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
oops
thanks garry - the hub is calling so I''ll respond properly later :)
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 4/15/2007 4:16:43 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Hi C,
It is an excelent question.

This image below is from a Sarin scan of a quite large stone.

All the facets meet at the culet, and the 2 extra facets (one highlighted in red) are the result of a bad scan. I believe this facet model was in theis suppliers Sarin modelling - but the scan is not one any lab would want to put on thei reports.

Helium will do a much better job because it has a facet matching capacity and handles the azimuth twist errors like this one much better. But for all sorts of reasons labs, especially American labs, seem not to want to throw out theiir old scanners and buy a few new ones.

Other issues of politics also play out - often labs do not want to show us the little extra facets an things that might stop people buying diamonds (which is kinda funny - except it is sad).
Sorry about the long delay in replying.... I just KNOW you were waiting on pins and needles ;-)

I wish there wasn''t so much red tape standing in the way of the helium, from everything I''ve read it is the best. I can definitely appreciate not wanting to throw out the old in favor of helium, but aren''t *new* scanners being bought still?

The sarin done on my stone made some of the girdle into extra facets on the pav or crown and things didn''t line up as well as they do to my louped eye... but that''s okay.... it would have been helpful to have a basic outline on the cert. Though I admit that most who are looking for diamonds don''t even know how to read the certificates or a sarin. Heck, 90% of the sarin on my stone is gibberish to me (of course it''d probably make sense if my stone were round lol)

So, its good to know that one of the limits to sarin is that you basically have to tell it what you want it to tell you before it will tell you what you want to know LOL

And it is - yes sad - that people worry about dispersing the truth. In an industry where many if not most of the sellers out there hold up their baubles and look the customer in the eye and say isn''t this perfect? It can be yours for the low price of $5999! having an accurate accounting for cutting flaws wouldn''t go over to well. But most of us here at least know that things don''t always line up "perfectly" and that doesn''t necessarily mean the stone is a bad one. Within reason of course.

Oh well, I''ll continue advocating for the cushion. I know it isn''t your favorite cut, and I know that if too many eyes start examining the cushion that it could become overly regulated and lose its charm... and garry you never did go back and look at the paper plate experiment photos!! LOL I wonder if this also won''t get lost in the frey with my delayed response... Sorry again and thanks for indulging me :)
 

RockDoc

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Messages
2,509
Just to add some input here about Sarin.


A. There are different model of Sarin machines. So a lot depends on the model. Their earlier model called the Brilliant Eye, was not as accurate as the Diamension models. They are constantly improving on the machine models too.

B. Software version. There is a standard and a professional version of the software. And there are occasional updates which Sarin charges for. So depends on the version used.

C. Scan setting. There are several settings as to shape, and accuracy. There is a "regular" scan and a Most Accurate scan setting. As for shapes there are lots of "pre-set" shapes but there is also a scan shape for those stones that are cut differently, that can be programmed into the machine as well, when someone designs a "non standard" type shape.

D. Calibration of the machine, cleaning of it, and how "clean" the diamond is. Dust is an absolute demon for these machines relevant to the "purity" of the scan.

E. New technology. These machines and the technology are still in their infancy. It wasn''t too many years ago that these didn''t exist yet, and the measurements had to be done by template measurment, "eyeball measurement" or measurement with a proportion scope. To do what the Sarin, OGI and Helium do was just about impossible to do within reasonable time limits. As time goes on this will undoubtedly get better, more accurate and more comprehensive.

Rockdoc
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 4/16/2007 11:40:42 AM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 4/15/2007 4:16:43 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Hi C,
It is an excelent question.

This image below is from a Sarin scan of a quite large stone.

All the facets meet at the culet, and the 2 extra facets (one highlighted in red) are the result of a bad scan. I believe this facet model was in theis suppliers Sarin modelling - but the scan is not one any lab would want to put on thei reports.

Helium will do a much better job because it has a facet matching capacity and handles the azimuth twist errors like this one much better. But for all sorts of reasons labs, especially American labs, seem not to want to throw out theiir old scanners and buy a few new ones.

Other issues of politics also play out - often labs do not want to show us the little extra facets an things that might stop people buying diamonds (which is kinda funny - except it is sad).
Sorry about the long delay in replying.... I just KNOW you were waiting on pins and needles ;-)

I wish there wasn''t so much red tape standing in the way of the helium, from everything I''ve read it is the best. I can definitely appreciate not wanting to throw out the old in favor of helium, but aren''t *new* scanners being bought still?

The sarin done on my stone made some of the girdle into extra facets on the pav or crown and things didn''t line up as well as they do to my louped eye... but that''s okay.... it would have been helpful to have a basic outline on the cert. Though I admit that most who are looking for diamonds don''t even know how to read the certificates or a sarin. Heck, 90% of the sarin on my stone is gibberish to me (of course it''d probably make sense if my stone were round lol)

So, its good to know that one of the limits to sarin is that you basically have to tell it what you want it to tell you before it will tell you what you want to know LOL

And it is - yes sad - that people worry about dispersing the truth. In an industry where many if not most of the sellers out there hold up their baubles and look the customer in the eye and say isn''t this perfect? It can be yours for the low price of $5999! having an accurate accounting for cutting flaws wouldn''t go over to well. But most of us here at least know that things don''t always line up ''perfectly'' and that doesn''t necessarily mean the stone is a bad one. Within reason of course.

Oh well, I''ll continue advocating for the cushion. I know it isn''t your favorite cut, and I know that if too many eyes start examining the cushion that it could become overly regulated and lose its charm... and garry you never did go back and look at the paper plate experiment photos!! LOL I wonder if this also won''t get lost in the frey with my delayed response... Sorry again and thanks for indulging me :)
You have a pretty good handle on the topic C

Where was the thread with the bow tie and paper plates?
 

Cehrabehra

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diagem

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Date: 4/16/2007 1:14:44 PM
Author: RockDoc

Just to add some input here about Sarin.


A. There are different model of Sarin machines. So a lot depends on the model. Their earlier model called the Brilliant Eye, was not as accurate as the Diamension models. They are constantly improving on the machine models too.

B. Software version. There is a standard and a professional version of the software. And there are occasional updates which Sarin charges for. So depends on the version used.

C. Scan setting. There are several settings as to shape, and accuracy. There is a ''regular'' scan and a Most Accurate scan setting. As for shapes there are lots of ''pre-set'' shapes but there is also a scan shape for those stones that are cut differently, that can be programmed into the machine as well, when someone designs a ''non standard'' type shape. If i try to plot a Novelty Fancy Shaped Diamond on a Sarin/Ogi/Helium type scanner, will it ACCURATLY plot the faceting structure????

D. Calibration of the machine, cleaning of it, and how ''clean'' the diamond is. Dust is an absolute demon for these machines relevant to the ''purity'' of the scan.

E. New technology. These machines and the technology are still in their infancy. It wasn''t too many years ago that these didn''t exist yet, and the measurements had to be done by template measurment, ''eyeball measurement'' or measurement with a proportion scope. To do what the Sarin, OGI and Helium do was just about impossible to do within reasonable time limits. As time goes on this will undoubtedly get better, more accurate and more comprehensive.

Rockdoc
 

oldminer

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Machines created to map the facets and measure the physical dimiensions are quite costly. As one asks more of these devices there is a need for more programming, more study, more technology and more sophisticated electronics. Time has brought the cost down on some of these factors, yet one must consider the relatively small size of the total market for new, "improved'' devices when the present tools do a pretty good or good enough job in most respects. This is the opinion of the owners and the trade. Once they require better than "good enough" they tend to act on improvment, but not much before there is a demand.

It is very difficult to force complacent owners into spending relatively large sums of their capital when few users are demanding more or "better" information. SOmetimes the information generated would hurt rather than help sales. One must balance salesmanship with the other factors that go into a successful business. If the entire selling of diamonds was to become science, I am afraid it would not be nearly as viable a business as it is.
 

diagem

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Date: 4/20/2007 8:12:20 AM
Author: oldminer
Machines created to map the facets and measure the physical dimiensions are quite costly. As one asks more of these devices there is a need for more programming, more study, more technology and more sophisticated electronics. Time has brought the cost down on some of these factors, yet one must consider the relatively small size of the total market for new, ''improved'' devices when the present tools do a pretty good or good enough job in most respects. This is the opinion of the owners and the trade. Once they require better than ''good enough'' they tend to act on improvment, but not much before there is a demand.

It is very difficult to force complacent owners into spending relatively large sums of their capital when few users are demanding more or ''better'' information. SOmetimes the information generated would hurt rather than help sales. One must balance salesmanship with the other factors that go into a successful business. If the entire selling of diamonds was to become science, I am afraid it would not be nearly as viable a business as it is.
So I take it as there is no "device" on the market today that can accurately plot a novelty fancy cut...., if it is not a known fancy faceting arrangement???
Am I correct?
 
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