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Let''s talk Tookie

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MINE!!

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Okay.. I was curious to hear everyones thoughts on this Tookie thing. As well as Arnold''s decision. I am not looking for a debate on the Death Penalty. I am surious to hear the thoughts about whether Tookie should be offered clemency.. And why? Or why not? I don''t want to hear a polotical debate either.. no big bad republicans..
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or balming this on Bush...
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AGBF

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Date: 12/12/2005 8:26:30 PM
Author:MINE!!
Okay.. I was curious to hear everyones thoughts on this Tookie thing. As well as Arnold's decision. I am not looking for a debate on the Death Penalty.

I cannot touch the denial of clemency for Tookie Williams without discussing the death penalty!

If I were not opposed to capital punishment, Tookie Williams would be someone I would want to see put to death. Also saddam Hussein. But I am opposed to the death penalty on moral and religious grounds. I therefore would sentence Tookie Williams and Saddam Hussein to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Deborah
 

movie zombie

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either one believes in redemption or one doesn''t.

he has always maintained his innocence of that particular crime. the chief witness was paid and other''s have recanted their testimony. one cannot deny he has done bad things. but if one believes in redemption then his acts regarding trying to stop youth from following in his footsteps should count.

life in prison is harsh. i''m with deb.

peace, movie zombie
 

strmrdr

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He should have been executed the same year he was sentenced.
one shot one kill, 25 cents, next
 

AGBF

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Date: 12/12/2005 11:50:53 PM
Author: strmrdr
one shot one kill, 25 cents, next

That makes sense if one does not believe that God is in all people. If one believes that God is within everyone, one does not do that. My beliefs preclude killing.

Deb
 

perry

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AGBF:

I am not opposed to the concept of a death penalty for certain situations.

I will say that I am opposed to the way the death penalty is routinely used in the US. My personal estimate is that only 2% - 3% of people on Death Row in the US would be eligible to my personal standard.

What little I know about this situation would not in my book make this person eligible for the death penalty in accordance with how I feel that it should work.

Concerning "god" and his abiility to infuse us and help us. Yes, I believe in that. But I also belive that people have the option of denying "god" and chosing other things (and that some have chosen that). While redemption is possible in the vast majority of cases - if a person so desires. There are in fact certain things that the bible states will forever ban you from such a redemption. The bible also clearly states that only some of the people will be saved.

I recently participated in a debate on another forum on the death penalty - even one of the lead people arguing against the death penalty acknowledged my position (with its checks and ballances) as valid - and a good starting point for a realistic debate on the issue. If anyone is interested I can post my overview later.


Perry
 

perry

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Here is the post I was referring to (I have copied the one with the reply):


Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:59 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perry wrote:

I am in the group that believes - conceptually at least - that there are rare situations within criminal law where the death penalty applies (mainly to remove the people who are a real threat to society).

However, the problem becomes how do you implement such a policy appropriately - in the face of the known problems and injustices with how it has historically been implemented in the US and most of the rest of the world.


Many years ago I came to the conclusion that I believed a fair system would apply the death penalty only where a person had 3 totally separate and unrelated convictions based on hard physical evidence (and not relatively weak "eyewitness" testimony or other things : for example, my memory is that their are cases where people have been convicted of murder completely absent of any evidence of the "missing" body). I would require a separate sentencing trial by judge not involved in any of the three convictions - and really good defense lawyers provided to the "accused" to validate the evidence and reasons for the 3 convictions.


A brief investigation back then of the criminal history of a number of death row inmates in various states at the time revealed that only something like only 2 to 3% of them might meet my standard of 3 suitable convictions (a more detailed investigation into the basis of their convictions would be warranted).


This raises the issue of cost effectiveness of setting up and administration of a death penalty program for only a few people.


So. I will admit that I believe that an appropriate death penalty system could be set-up to protect the innocent and poorly represented; and that in some cases that the death penalty could be appropriate.


However, in the end. I do not believe that it would be cost effective to do so. Locking these few up for life would be cheaper.


I will not support any death penalty within the court system absent a program like my idea of "3 strikes" based on hard evidence and a 4th hearing to challenge and validate those charges and the evidence.


Perry


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perry:

Though I don''t agree and never will agree with state sponsored death, I see the relevance in your proposition. I see it mainly, because your proposition makes a lot of sense while also providing many safe guards against the injustices that have occurred and continue to occur with the administration of the Death Penalty as we have known it.


Finally, you have provided many intelligent, well reasoned, and thought out alternatives to the present system of how capital offenders continue to be sent to their deaths in the 38 different state sponsored death houses nationwide including the federal gulag.


Your''s is an excellent starting place to beginning to insure fairness and impartiality, hopefully leading to the complete abolishment of the death penalty in America.


That is what I would really like to see happen.


Cowboy


 

cinnabar

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Oscar Wilde said that all saints have a past, and all sinners have a future.

I feel that in excuting this man, his good work while in prison has been judged to be worthless. Either execute offenders soon after sentencing, or don''t execute them at all. It''s the 20 year limbo I find unacceptable.
 

AGBF

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SDL and cinnabar, I simply have moral, religious, and philosophical differences with you. I cannot say you are wrong to believe in, "a life for a life". All I can say is that my beliefs are different.

Perry, you have made a point that had not, until you elucidated it, yet been discussed in the case of Tookie Williams: the very reasonable position that there should be no capital punishment if there is a possibility of mistake.

I thank you for pointing out the issue. There have been many proven mistakes in capital cases. No one should feel it is OK to execute the wong man for a crime! And no one should find it acceptable to execute a man who was convicted while his lawyer slept through his trial and there is no way even to know if he is guilty or innocent!

The above problems all plague the American judicial system and all are very serious indeed.

The above issues do not affect my point of view, however, since my opposition stems from my belief that there is God in all people. My position is like Cowboy's.

One point you raise, Perry, I do take issue with, however: that some people should be put to death because they are just too dangerous. I think that they can be kept imprisoned forever safely. I think that a sentence of life imprisonment without possibility of parole makes society renders society just as safe from a person killing him.

Deborah
 

AGBF

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Date: 12/13/2005 2:43:51 PM
Author: perry
Concerning 'god' and his abiility to infuse us and help us. Yes, I believe in that. But I also belive that people have the option of denying 'god' and chosing other things (and that some have chosen that).

This I wanted to address separately. I understand your belief. I am not sure that you understand mine. Unlike you, I do not think that one chooses God. I think that God lives in every person and is an inner light within him. (As my father once said, however, "sometimes that light is very dim".)

Deb
 

cinnabar

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AGBF: I am actually opposed to the death penalty, but MINE!! asked that we discuss this individual case rather than capital punishment politics in general so that''s what I was doing.

I cannot change the fact that the USA has a death penalty, however much I might disagree with it. I was coming from the viewpoint of an observer (who comes from a country that does not have capital punishment), saying "if this is how you do it here, then I''d prefer you to do it this way rather than some other way". I''d rather no one was executed at all, but that wasn''t the original question.
 

perry

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AGBF:

Perhaps I misspoke. More correctly I believe that "god" infuses us all at birth. However, I do believe that people can - and do - ask "god" to leave and choose other paths. There is evil in this world; it is real and papable when you meet it under the right conditions. More often it hides in plain view because evil can be so seductive.

Concerning the death penalty. I hope that you noted that I also came to the conclusion that having a death penalty may not be cost effective; and that it just might be cheaper to lock them up for life.

I do believe that some people represent a hazard to society - even if locked up (the pen is afterall mightier than the sword).

On the other hand, a recent thoght of mine regards the question of if you can humanly lock some people up for life either. Perhaps it would be more humane to execute them (on a case by case basis).

A very troubling question. I do not know the answer. I will think on it - and that may take years.

I also do not favor the number of people sentanced to life in prison either. How many inocent people are also in that group. I would like to see some form of challange to that as well to ensure that it was really based on very good evidence and charges.

Perry
 

Dancing Fire

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Date: 12/12/2005 11:50:53 PM
Author: strmrdr
He should have been executed the same year he was sentenced.
one shot one kill, 25 cents, next
agree!!! 100%.
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Calif should execute 10 every day that are on death row.why should tax payers keep murderers alive for 25 yrs.
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Dancing Fire

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Date: 12/12/2005 10:47:32 PM
Author: movie zombie
either one believes in redemption or one doesn''t.

he has always maintained his innocence of that particular crime. the chief witness was paid and other''s have recanted their testimony. one cannot deny he has done bad things. but if one believes in redemption then his acts regarding trying to stop youth from following in his footsteps should count.

life in prison is harsh. i''m with deb.

peace, movie zombie
yes....they''re all innocent.the victims are the guilty ones.
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strmrdr

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AGBF

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Date: 12/13/2005 5:56:23 PM
Author: perry
Perhaps I misspoke. More correctly I believe that ''god'' infuses us all at birth. However, I do believe that people can - and do - ask ''god'' to leave and choose other paths. There is evil in this world; it is real and papable when you meet it under the right conditions. More often it hides in plain view because evil can be so seductive.

I understand your belief. It is not mine. I believe that God is within all of us and never leaves, although I also believe that there is (much) evil in the world.

Deborah
 

marvel

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I don't have any sympathy for people like Tookie, Scott Peterson, Dave Westerfield. Therefore, I have no problem seeing them get the death penalty.

Edited to add: AGBF, I respect your opinion and it takes a special person be able try and not judge these people and circumstances.
 

movie zombie

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texas has admitted to killing an innocent man:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/21/AR2005112101384.html

i heard a reporter today on the radio who was involved in following this case. cantu had an altercation much later after the murder with an off duty police officer in a san antonio bar. the officer that eventually arrested cantu made incriminating statements that came out later that indicate that cantu was set up as retribution for the altercation with the off duty police officer. additionally, cantu''s appeal attorney was inexperienced and didn''t have a budget for investigation.

while i respect law enforcement in principal, there are toooooo many stories about the LA police department and NYPD as well that have come out over the years that show that people are set up for crimes they did not commit. admittedly, these people in general are not ''nice'' people, but they have not committed the crime for which they are arrested and convicted.

this discussion has gone further afield from the original question that Mine asked. however, it does concern me that while the victims and/or state may want revenge, that revenge should be against the actual perpetrator of the crime. holding or killing the wrong person means that the real criminal is still free at large to commit the same crime again. i don''t think anyone wants that.

peace, movie zombie
 

tanuki

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One scene that stuck in my mind from the movie "O Brother Where Art Thou" was the one where the escaped convicts come upon the baptism ceremony at the river and one of them rushes into the line of sinners being cleansed by the water and is "saved".

He then starts exulting to his friends about how all his sins have been forgiven - including robbing that grocery store and a bunch of other stuff he did.

George Clooney says "The Lord may have forgiven you but the State of Mississippi takes a harsher view"

Which is how I feel about all those criminals who feel sorry once they are caught.
God will ultimately decide who is sincere and who isn''t.
It doesn''t make it that the crime never happened.
They owe a debt to society which must be paid.
 

blodthecat

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I live in the UK and over here a life sentence for murder is 14-years. However, most people don''t even serve the full 14-years. It is usually reduced for ''good conduct'' whilst inside. How can that be justice?

The system is suppose to give the individual the chance to reform. Though there are no second chances for the victims of these terrible crimes. A life sentence should mean for life.

The only problem i have with the death penalty is that if society condems murder as morally wrong.....how can we then take a life by way of punishment.

I am not a religious person....but i just feel that taking a human life is wrong, no matter what the situation.

Michelle......I do understand your view point. I know a lot of people in this country (UK) would like the death penalty to be brought back as a deterant.

We are very fortunate that there are people like your partner, who have the strength of character to do this kind of job. It must be very stressful at times. He is seeing the nature of mankind at its very worst.

Best wishes dyanne
 

MINE!!

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Thanks for all the responsees.. good thread..

When I first heard about this I was torn..

My first thoughts... WOW... a former crip in prison for murder and a founder as well.... He has changed his ways, speaks out against gangs, renouced his former lifestyle and has sold books to deter others. How much more can you say about redemption.. here is a prime canidate...

NOw.. I believe in the death penalty.. do I think that there are innocent people put to death.. unfortunately... rarely... but yes. Do I think that there are guilty, murderous monsters walking the streets of my city, unchecked, and deemed innocent because their ''rights'' may have been voilated when they confessed without Miranda.. HEll yes... and those are the things that scare me the most.

Then.... started finding out things about ole Tookie. A self proclaimed Founder of the Crips.. He took pride in this title... yet.... The Crips were developed and created 2 YEARS before ole Tookie took the title. So he is taking credit for something that is really not a thing to be ''proud'' of in the first place. He admitted to the crimes... and laughed when he exaplined what one of the victims sounded like when he was being shot and killed. Then he later does not take resposibility for his crimes.. says he did not commit them. Even his ''supporters'' did not claim e was innocent.. only that he should not be put to death... hmmmmm. And how can one ask for a stay of execution on the nasis of redemption if he says he did not commit the crime?

As for recanting of testimony...I wonder if I would be recanting testimony if I knew the Crips were on my A$$. Hmmmmm...

After a while... I stopped thinking that Ole Tookie was all that good and had found redemtption.

So I have to say, I agreed with him being put to death... Good choice by Arnold and his administration.
 

MissAva

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Date: 12/12/2005 11:50:53 PM
Author: strmrdr
He should have been executed the same year he was sentenced.
one shot one kill, 25 cents, next
Yup I agree!
 

ammayernyc

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Murder is murder is murder is murder.

Doesn''t matter who does the killing -- the state or a criminal.
 

movie zombie

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with you, AmandaPanda.

peace, movie zombie
 

MINE!!

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I am curious if either of you support pro murder.. Opps sorry pro choice. Ah... I see it is not a real person yet.. it is only a feetus. Well, I for one..(just as you do not identity abortion as murder of a living person) do not consider the death penalty as murder of people.. because I do not consider these monsters poeple. I think you have experiences doubles there...
 

ammayernyc

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Date: 12/14/2005 4:46:27 PM
Author: MINE!!
I am curious if either of you support pro murder.. Opps sorry pro choice. Ah... I see it is not a real person yet.. it is only a feetus. Well, I for one..(just as you do not identity abortion as murder of a living person) do not consider the death penalty as murder of people.. because I do not consider these monsters poeple. I think you have experiences doubles there...
Not quite sure why you needed to bring a whole other topic into this...

I was merely answering your question. I don''t believe in the death penalty. Not saying your opinion is bad, just stating mine.
 

MINE!!

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Don''t get sore Amanda Panda.. was explaining to you that murder is not murder is not murder. Strike a nerve?
 

ammayernyc

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I also don''t believe abortion is murder. So that argument doesn''t really apply to me.

If the state forced a woman to have an abortion, I might feel differently...
 

MINE!!

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*double post*
 

MINE!!

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Actually it does apply to you if you don''t think abortion is murder. I admit murder can be defined as murder.. but I advocate the murder of the guilty, not the innocent or the victims of the guilty.
 
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