Last one: What diamond industry should do in order to change this situation?

[pricescope]

Last one: What diamond industry should do in order to change this situation and build the needed trust?

 

[valeria101]

KISS ! (keep it simple).

This cut story is getting completely incomprehensible. Sorry to say this. It''s fun to peep into the nooks and crannies of all that delightful complexity... but... how long before someone builds a PhD program just for that.

One hand, the thicket of intertwined references might just prompt trust for whoever succeeds to show mastery of the bunch. The phenomenon is by no means limited to the diamond business, of course.

On the other, transparency is gone.

 

[strmrdr]

The industry keeps on screaming that they don’t need gov regulation because they police themselves.
They aren’t doing a very good job of it.
It only takes a small percentage to give everyone a bad name.

Consumers these days won’t put up with secrecy so what the industry can do is open the curtain up and be up front and honest with consumers.

 

[Michael_E]

I just had to chuckle about this thread. It could just as well have been titled," What can the used car industry do to change their reputation ?". You can of course substitute lawyers, doctors and just about any other group that you''d like. The truth is much more plain than the implications that some have posted here.
Valeria, the cut story is completely comprehensible if you take it with a grain of salt and look at what the GIA is saying, for instance. Now the GIA is not selling diamonds and they do not represent any particular group. When you read what they say about diamond grading it basically comes down to, "We''ve asked a bunch of people what they like and here''s a complicated formula that takes an average of what they like and grades downward from that average". Pretty simple way of saying that something is the "best", because a bunch of people who we talked to say it is. Gary H. is basically saying the same thing with his HCA and the AGS has really gotten clever by not really looking at a stone but measuring it in every possible way and running those measurements through a computer "beauty analyzer". They are all saying the same thing. The tough part comes in the selling game. If you want a diamond that has the "best" characteristics, then you will pay through the nose. If your taste does not follow the average, then you can find a diamond which is attractive to YOU, at a much lower price.
Strmrdr,
Secrecy ? What secrecy ? There is no more secrecy anywhere. You can get almost any information that you''d like, on the ''net, if you dig long enough. You can ask any question that you like on here and get an answer. The truth is that this industry is split into many factions and the group that is most visible is also at the most risk. That group is the small jewelry store owner. Many of them are bench jewelers, gemologists and so forth. Many are in dire straights because of this internet and it''s not because of any information that''s available. It''s about price and the changes in the way things are distributed that leaves them completely out of the loop and stranded. Their suppliers are selling directly to their customers and bypassing them. They are not trying to be secretive, they are trying to survive without knowing quite how. What will happen is that those in large metropolitan areas will either get larger and offer expanded services and more attractive options for those who want the security of actually shopping, (as opposed to virtually shopping), or they will disappear. Those in outlying, rural areas are already on the way out.
Police them ? How ? That''s like policing used car dealers to make sure that they are being honest and straightforward. Some are and some aren''t, you get to decide. That''s the capitalist culture and so far it works better than anything else people have come up with. Just out of curiosity Leonid, how would you answer your question ? Your website has served as a new model of change that has been more profound than anything else that I''ve seen in the last 30 years in this industry. You have more insight from this end about changes and I would be interested in hearing your perspective, if you would care to give it.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/31/2005 12:56:15 PM
Author: Michael_E

Valeria, the cut story is completely comprehensible if you take it with a grain of salt and look at what the GIA is saying, for instance. Now the GIA is not selling diamonds and they do not represent any particular group. When you read what they say about diamond grading it basically comes down to:

''We''ve asked a bunch of people what they like and here''s a complicated formula that takes an average of what they like and grades downward from that average''.

[...] If you want a diamond that has the ''best'' characteristics, then you will pay through the nose.
If your taste does not follow the average, then you can find a diamond which is attractive to YOU, at a much lower price.

You say it allot better, but this is pretty much what I meant as well.

Keeping that "complicated formula" complicated makes the opinion of the grading authority irrefutable. Who is going to look into the complication after all ?

The "pay through the nose" price would not be sustainable if everyone could understand what is this all about and just use their own taste and judgement. I''d rather have things made simple.

As is, anyone willing to follow personal taste (as a buyer) or experience and judgement (as seller) faces the unpleasant challenge to admit that whatever they want or say is "worse" or "weird". Given that the merchandise in cause is an ego-pleasing status symbol, such challnge is no mere joke.

 

[pricescope]

Michael_E, these questions were asked by one of the leading magazines in the industry and addressed to consumers, not the trade insiders. These threads are not an attack on the trade and I think it is important for the trade to hear what consumers think even if some opinions might be arguable.

Please allow consumers to express their points of views in these threads without intervention.

 

[Regular Guy]

From what I read here, if the industry is personified by its giants of GIA & AGS, plus, the industry is doing what it needs to do most to help the consumer....which is bring the science of perception forward.

Leonid, my hunch is that your comments to Michael E are motivated by his industry insider notes in the second half, and that you should step back. Overall, I think his perspective is very insightful, and -- unless people in the trade are not invited -- all could and should speak up. (edited to add...ummm....I guess in your initial posting of question #1, you did ask for non-industry insiders; well...I enjoyed his comments anyway).

My own thinking is that perception is designed to be like what properly happens at a hospital. Before you get a shot, they've learned that it's best to tell you what to anticipate in terms of pain, to help you get through it. That learning about reality helps you see it for what it is. And likewise, for what GIA and AGS is doing, each seemingly with good rationals...probably....as Michael says...one from the bottom up, and the other, from the top, down. Either way, going for some kind of rigor, repeatability, and predictability of the outcome -- in terms of what you will like...providing more phenomenologically oriented information such as the grades will review from the certifiers...this is a good thing. Also...it's a progression, I expect. Fifteen years ago, when certs were less the norm, I expect that was less good than it is now. I see these things as all good, and expect that GIA's including cut grading will have effects that are yet to be seen, in a good way for all.

 

[luvmysparklies]

The tough part comes in the selling game. If you want a diamond that has the "best" characteristics, then you will pay through the nose.

See, this is exactly what the diamond industry can change to allay the fear factor - the above perception and continued perpetuation by its own tradespeople. No, a person doesn''t have to pay through the nose. Michael at least goes on to add:

If your taste does not follow the average, then you can find a diamond which is attractive to YOU, at a much lower price.

Very true.


Strmrdr,
Secrecy ? What secrecy ? There is no more secrecy anywhere. You can get almost any information that you''d like, on the ''net, if you dig long enough.

But, that''s just it. Industry-wide changes in the diamond industry can mean that B&Ms should be able to give the consumers the kind of information that they seek about something that they will be paying good money for. Why should it be that a person has to go to the internet and spend untold hours to educate themselves so that they feel like they have at least half a chance at not being ripped off. I can''t speak for others, but I turned to the internet to fill in the blanks left as blanks by the B&Ms that I visited. It just so happens that I have gotten a nice, new hobby out of it. But for those who don''t want to have work that hard, industry-wide changes need to be made so that the information available on the net (diamond specs, un-forged, un-switched certs and the like) is perceived as something legitimate for a consumer to ask for. Not met with "oh all that techy stuff doesn''t matter" attitudes. That would help with the fear on the part of some consumers.


Many are in dire straights because of this internet and it''s not because of any information that''s available.

The above statement is not entirely true. There are some issues that would need to be ironed out, but there are still too many B&Ms that are not willing to invest in what they need to invest in to level their playing field with the internet - even if it is a little at a time. Yes, I am aware that for some, this may be a fiscal challenge, but it can also be seen as an investment for the long-term viability of the business versus an unneccesary expense. My experience has been, "I''m the jeweler with x amount of years experience and the stone is what I say it is." Because of the internet, consumers no longer *have* to deal with that.

It''s about price and the changes in the way things are distributed that leaves them completely out of the loop and stranded. Their suppliers are selling directly to their customers and bypassing them. They are not trying to be secretive, they are trying to survive without knowing quite how.

I have a jeweler friend (very,very dear to me) that this has happened to and he continues to thrive - even amidst this "newer business model" of internet shopping being in place. It is not impossible to survive and certainly possible to thrive. It''s just a natural fact that many people are resistant to change and in the case of the internet, it''s just convenient to villify it when it hampers your own business.

I am speaking from my own personal experience and by no means am I including the great local B&Ms that are stepping up to the plate.
Luv

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 3/31/2005 11:34:13 AM
Author:Pricescope
Last one: What diamond industry should do in order to change this situation and build the needed trust?

The industry should make its practices and products as transparent as possible.

It should prioritize providing information in an easy-to-understand, non-intimidating way to its customers. Not every shopper is an academic.....you''ll lose him the minute you talk about a upper star facet. BUT, almost everyone can understand that "cut means how the facets of a diamond are aligned with each other to give the best reflection.....they work like funhouse mirrors. How they are aligned with each another affects how you appear in the mirror, right?. How diamond facets are aligned with each other (cut) affect how a diamond sparkles and appears to your eye."

It should commit itself to offering a more consistent presentation. That means not staffing a jewelry counter with someone who replies to the question "What is the cut of a diamond" with the answer "it''s ROUND." Knowledge breeds trust.

Each reputable member of the industry should demand (through practice) a bit more uniformity in the jargon......so folks understand what "ideal" means because it doesn''t vary sooooooo widely from person to person.

The industry should eschew the ridiculous inclination to insult customers'' intelligence with 50-80% off sales (which are held WEEKLY!). This is a solution for those who don''t have a single creative cell in their bodies. It''s pandering to the lowest common denominator, and it''s trite.

(Not to mention........I would likely put a bit more stock in your integrity if you weren''t REEEEALLY expecting me to swallow that this diamond is seriously worth 16K, but I can have it for 6K because of your TREMENDOUS SALE! Any idiot with five minutes and a keyboard can easily figure out that the 1.05 H, SI-1, EGL-graded stone would NEVER be worth $16.5K---all without even sticking a toe in the lake that is understanding "make". And once he figures out THAT lie, you''re doomed. No saving you, and no trust forthcoming.

These are initial steps I think the industry could take. Do I think it''s enough? Not necessarily. The truth is, not everyone is a research hound and not everyone WANTS to become an "expert". They just want to buy a diamond, so there is only so much education the industry can provide. Some of the burden is up to the consumer, and unfortunately most aren''t inclined to educate themselves.

But, the above steps would go a long way toward making inroads in perception.

 

[Maxine]

I still say that the best thing that could happen is for all reputable diamond sellers to carry only well cut diamonds...then the only differences would be color and clarity.....If the diamond were not well cut , that should be disclosed and the diamond appropriately discounted....Perhaps there would be a high average (premium ) cut as standard.....anything below gets discounted, and anything above (superideal) gets a premium paid...The hardest thing about buying is that diamonds are ALL different in MANY ways...not like a car with leather or cloth, and this is the invoice price.....take things off to lower the price, and add things on to increase the price.....(this relates to the linked question...)

 

[RockDoc]

Here''s an interesting fact.....

About three years ago, a bunch of consumers and seller met near Coumbia South Carolina as a partial diamond showing part and part as a really sociable event.

One of the consumers had purchased a diamond which by all accounts was the "cat''s meow" of stone. The customers had done a lot of looking and research and reading etc.

One of the discussions was about the differences in appearances of an Eightstar cut diamond as compared with others, that claimed they were equal.

Despite writing and studying and researching on the part of the consumer, the really lacking element was the ability to discern the difference by sight. However, once I educated her eyes to what to look for, what characteristics were desireable but yet subtle and difficult for the untrained eye to see, the result was irrefutable, and she had to get an Eightstar, which she did.

I also say that there are many super fine quality stones... and certain characteristics are more attractive to others than different characteristics. Personal preference is certainly a part of a consumer''s choice, but their eye has to be educated a lot more than just looking at a few examples.

This is one hurdle that no amount of reading on the internet can teach consumers.... Perhaps some incredible technology will surface in the times ahead, but this to me is one of the biggest hurdles that the industry could and should delve into a lot more intensely.

Rockdoc

 

[strmrdr]

Well said luvmysparklies that is pretty much what I was going to say.
..........

Part of the reason the industry is scared of educated consumers is who is going to buy the crap diamonds that a lot of them push these days?
Thats why GIA was forced to water down their cut grades AGS deserves a lot of credit for holding firm for consumers.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/31/2005 12:56:15 PM
Author: Michael_E
Now the GIA is not selling diamonds and they do not represent any particular group. When you read what they say about diamond grading it basically comes down to, ''We''ve asked a bunch of people what they like and here''s a complicated formula that takes an average of what they like and grades downward from that average''.

How realistic was the environment?
Was the important stuff you taught me about tilt and other aspects of gemstone cutting covered?
Where in the world can I duplicate the lighting environment with a diamond on my finger and how do I have to hold my hand?
From what I read they set out to prove what they wanted to prove for the industry then got caught and modified it just a little and released it.
That doesnt sound like honest research to me.