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larger i color vs smaller g-h?

a03b

Rough_Rock
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Hi all, i always considered g-h colors for some time. After doing some research online, i saw that many people are choosing i color to go a size bigger. Do you think this is wise? Would you consider i color colorless?

Ps: i am only considering 3ex/ideal hca<2 diamonds + vs1/vs2. I will be buying either a g--h color 0.80 or an i colod 1-1.05

Thanks for all the help!
 

msop04

Ideal_Rock
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That is totally a personal preference… I would choose the larger I colored diamond.
 

rubybeth

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I own an I color stone that's very well cut (from Whiteflash), though it's a radiant not an ACA. It's lovely, though I am not very color sensitive or bothered by lower colors. I color stones are still in that near colorless range, and with a well cut stone, I doubt you would see much color at all unless you are very sensitive. Could you get it and see if it bothers you? I personally would want the size more than high color. :naughty:
 

diamondseeker2006

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In most lighting you won't see any tint in an ideal cut I color stone. I see it in mine in certain lighting such as in the car with tinted windows. It does bug me a little, but for the most part, I think I color diamonds are a great value!
 

tyty333

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I'm not that color sensitive and would go with the "I". I'm assuming you are going with a well cut I. Mostly from the
top they look pretty white but you see tint when the stone is tilted or when looking at it from the side. You can counter
this "problem" by putting it in a setting that has a lovely gallery/basket that hides some of the pavilion or you can just
embrace the color and go with it.
 

marymm

Ideal_Rock
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No, I don't consider "I" colorless; colorless is D/E/F.

"I" is in the near-colorless range (G/H/I), and if you already know you are okay with G/H, you might be okay with "I."

Be aware that some "I"s are closer to J color, and some are mid-range, and some "I"s fall closer to H color -- in other words, while all diamonds have a range, I do think it is at "I" color and lower that where the diamond hits within the graded color range is more visibly apparent to the eye. [A low "I" will show more of an obvious tint as compared to a high "I"]

If your true preference is really the colorless range, and you are going to near-colorless to gain size, then I'd suggest sticking with G.

Maybe go to a reputable jewelry store in your area, one that carries ideal-cut diamonds, and ask to see G/H/I diamonds?
 

Queenie60

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I recently purchased an I colored stone for a pendant and it faces up very white, set in platinum. Personally I would go with an I to get a larger stone. It's a personal preference - you should go to a few jewelers in your area and look at loose stones to determine your color preference. Good luck, I hope you find what you're looking for. :wavey:
 

Victor Canera

Shiny_Rock
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a03b|1463144385|4031196 said:
Hi all, i always considered g-h colors for some time. After doing some research online, i saw that many people are choosing i color to go a size bigger. Do you think this is wise? Would you consider i color colorless?

Ps: i am only considering 3ex/ideal hca<2 diamonds + vs1/vs2. I will be buying either a g--h color 0.80 or an i colod 1-1.05

Thanks for all the help!
Hi a03b, An I color can definitely be a good value and a way for you to maximize some of the other Cs.
I would just watch out for any color undertones that a diamond might have.
I’m attaching a photo of two GIA graded I colored diamonds we recently called in for a client. The one on the right had a heavy grayish undertone that gave it this dull appearance.

Just something to watch out for.


All the best,

grayish.jpg

grayish2.jpg
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
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Victor has just shown us a major reason to go with someone you know and trust and who will be personally seeing the diamond that you will be buying.

There are many things that the grading reports do not show, among them the tint color of the diamond. In the case that Victor has shown it was a gray tint, rather than a yellowish tint that we normally expect. A greenish tint would be a strong indication that the diamond is from Zimbabwe, which has very negative connotations due to the horrible abuse of its own citizens by the government there.

Since the tint of the color is not on the reports, information such as just provided by Victor is very important and can only be provided by someone actually seeing the diamond.

Wink
 

mrs-b

Ideal_Rock
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7,099
Thought I'd post a couple of photos of my I colored stone. The profile shot is against a plain white background, so this shows maximum tint. I can easily live with this, though - in any other setting it's quite difficult to see any tint at all.

The face on shot is an accurate representation of how it looks from above - again against a plain white background. No tint whatsoever and a stunning stone.

The last photo was taken again, face on, against a white background. It's a largish stone - 3.61ct - so there's plenty of surface area if you're going to see tint. If the stone is smaller, you'll find all aspects of it - inclusions, tint and so on - more difficult to see.

To add - I bought my stone from Blue Nile. It was inspected for tint by one of the gemologists there before it was shipped to me. It was exactly as promised.

Good luck!

img_11749.jpg

img_11750.jpg

img_11751.jpg
 

Victor Canera

Shiny_Rock
Trade
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Messages
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I wholeheartedly agree with Wink.

There is so much more to a diamond than it’s “paper” (the term used for lab reports in the trade).
A 2ct diamond having an I color with a 61.5% depth, 57% table, 34.5° crown and 40.8° pavilion does not equal a super fine diamond. There can even be translucency issues with a diamond which are referred to as “milky” diamonds. There are issues to consider like optical symmetry, color undertones and a myriad of other things that a lab report does not tell you.

I think there is a lot to be said for the vendors out there that have invested heavily in their own high quality inventory of in house diamonds. People like Wink and others know their own inventory intimately. If there is a question about a diamond, companies with in-house inventory can just pull the diamond out of the vault and give you information to the nth degree on a stone. There is a level of consistency there with inventory as well that can't be matched using other forms of internet selling.

All the best,
 

piano

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
100
Completely personal choice.
Some is more color sensitive than others.
 

teobdl

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Companies like James Allen, Blue Nile, and Enchanted Diamonds may not have in-house vaults, but they will help customers choose and inspect diamonds.

Besides timing, what specific advantages would VC and Wink's people have in comparing and evaluating diamonds that are in front of them, compared to "drop ship" sites? [I don't know if drop ship is the right term here, but essentially I'm referring to sites that don't keep listed diamonds in-house].

For those who don't know, this question is especially critical because vendors with in-house inventory have access to the diamonds the "drop shippers" list. If there are actual advantages to having in-house vendors compare and evaluate diamonds (besides immediate timing), please explain so that PSers can decide whether to use in-house vendors for diamonds they see on other sites.
 

teobdl

Brilliant_Rock
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To answer the original poster's question about I or G/H, I agree with VC's first post that advised that an I color diamond should be evaluated against other I color diamonds: there is more variance in degree of body color within any given grade as you go down the color scale.

The poster may be guided by the fact that Tiffany selects I color and higher, so, on average, one would expect an I color to be white enough. If comparison by expert eyes is not available, then it's safer to pick H, or risk possibly being annoyed by seeing a tinge of color in certain lighting conditions and angles.
 

Victor Canera

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Hi Teobdl,

There are many advantages to working with a vendor with in-house inventory.

To give some background, there has been a trend with vendors selling virtual inventory to source diamonds from Indian diamond manufacturers. That means in many instances, it’s not a matter of the seller just calling in a diamond from a US polisher to inspect it for the consumer. There is a huge amount of logistics involved in the background to even get the diamond to the seller’s hands by importing it into the US etc. That brings other questions to mind. Who can vouch for the accuracy of the images provided of the diamond for sale? It’s not the seller. It’s the polisher of the diamond who remains nameless and who is not involved in the transaction. The seller’s vested interest is also to import as few diamonds as possible from overseas to keep shipping costs down and to inspect as few diamonds as possible to keep their costs down.

I think a very important aspect is Cut consistency. I know for us and I’m sure I speak for the other high end diamond vendors here, if we’re to put our brand name on a product, it better be a fine diamond. We at VC have our signature diamonds manufactured according to our own specifications. You can’t achieve that consistency by offering diamonds from hundreds of diamond polishers in India. In fact, I don’t see very many really fine diamonds as far as Cut being offered out there consistently by a single polisher that these virtual inventory retailers use.

The diamonds for us are vetted at the rough diamond stage, they’re vetted at the manufacturing polished stage, they’re vetted by us using our gemological equipment and they’re vetted by AGSL. If a stone doesn’t meet spec in any of those stages it’s simply rejected. I also don’t see a huge amount of AGSL diamonds for sale on virtual inventory sites. I think that it’s been established here that in general that AGSL is more strict when it comes to Cut quality of diamonds. You can speak to many many diamond manufacturers and they can appreciate how hard it is to achieve an AGS000 score. How thoroughly are diamond vetted by drop shippers? And, do they have a vested interest in vetting those diamonds so thoroughly? I would think that if you get to be extremely picky with the product that you’re selling that the number of products that you can sell to the consumer would dwindle by quite a bit.

You can also get into the buyer benefits that you get such as buyback and upgrade policies that the other system of selling can’t really offer.

To clarify, diamond photo I posted above was NOT part of our signature diamond inventory. It was a diamond that was we called in using a virtual inventory list and we recommended that the client pass on it. I’m sure that that stone, unfortunately, will be sold to an un-suspecting consumer one day. Or it might be that the consumer doesn’t mind.
 

diamondseeker2006

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teobdl|1463168787|4031380 said:
Companies like James Allen, Blue Nile, and Enchanted Diamonds may not have in-house vaults, but they will help customers choose and inspect diamonds.

Besides timing, what specific advantages would VC and Wink's people have in comparing and evaluating diamonds that are in front of them, compared to "drop ship" sites? [I don't know if drop ship is the right term here, but essentially I'm referring to sites that don't keep listed diamonds in-house].

For those who don't know, this question is especially critical because vendors with in-house inventory have access to the diamonds the "drop shippers" list. If there are actual advantages to having in-house vendors compare and evaluate diamonds (besides immediate timing), please explain so that PSers can decide whether to use in-house vendors for diamonds they see on other sites.
I have done that before. Found a diamond on one site and had a vendor who does light return testing call it in. Wink, Victor, Good Old Gold, and Whiteflash all specialize in superior cut stones and have them in-house, and I normally choose from those. But I do recommend any of them to call in virtual stones because I think they have greater capability of evaluating the stones (light return images, video comparison, etc.). Some of the sites that mainly list virtual stones give advice all the time about which stone to choose when they do not even have the stones in hand. I never pay attention to that kind of advice. One virtual stone vendor mentioned at the top has made the statement that ALL of their SI1 stones are eyeclean! Umm, without having the stones in hand, how can they say that?!

I am not saying that you can't get a nice stone from vendors of virtual stones, because some people such as MrsBlop have successfully accessed a nice stone and knew enough herself what to look for. But for the most part, I do value input from a trusted vendor just because of things like Victor has pointed out like the undertone issue.

In addition, someone recently pointed out that top cut stones are often already picked from the cutters and what remains on virtual lists normally won't be top cut quality. Or another example is that the eyeclean SI2 stones are already selected and there'll be a higher percentage of non-eyeclean stones remaining in the virtual inventories.

(Victor's reply wasn't there when I began typing but I'll post anyway!)
 

Texas Leaguer

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teobdl|1463168787|4031380 said:
Companies like James Allen, Blue Nile, and Enchanted Diamonds may not have in-house vaults, but they will help customers choose and inspect diamonds.

Besides timing, what specific advantages would VC and Wink's people have in comparing and evaluating diamonds that are in front of them, compared to "drop ship" sites? [I don't know if drop ship is the right term here, but essentially I'm referring to sites that don't keep listed diamonds in-house].

For those who don't know, this question is especially critical because vendors with in-house inventory have access to the diamonds the "drop shippers" list. If there are actual advantages to having in-house vendors compare and evaluate diamonds (besides immediate timing), please explain so that PSers can decide whether to use in-house vendors for diamonds they see on other sites.
Besides the uncertainty of timing, there is uncertainty of delivery itself. There are many reasons why virtual stones may be unavailable to the companies listing them. This can be very frustrating to a someone who has been shopping for weeks and finally decides on a diamond, only to find that the stone is not available. And in some cases the diamond is paid for and many days may have passed while the vendor is trying to get the stone, leaving the customer very disappointed when they finally learn that the vendor cannot deliver it.

As Victor has described merchants that have their own production and own the diamonds they have in stock can provide assurances, upfront information and diagnostics and other services that are not available with virtual inventory. Particularly with high precision cutting, customers want to be able to compare diamonds with light performance images and videos taken in a consistent manner so that they can make fine distinctions. And they are able to request additional information such as side by side images or videos, or have a gemologist describe certain aspects of the diamond with the stone in hand.

In-stock inventory also provides the 'old school' option of actually going to the merchant and looking at the diamonds and making a final selection in person. This advantage should not be underestimated. While almost everyone is doing their research online today, a significant majority cannot bring themselves to buy sight unseen. For all the people that feel perfectly comfortable buying a diamond online, there are many more that feel much more comfortable going to the place of business, seeing the operation and making their final decision in person.

While virtual inventory certainly has its place in today's market, and can be a good option for certain buyers, in-house inventory has significant advantages for many other buyers.
 

mrs-b

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teobodl -

A lot of the issues one encounters with drop shippers can be addressed by working with a retailer with a solid return policy. As I've said on these boards a bunch of times, I've bought diamonds from a lot of the preferred vendors on PS and my BN stones compare favorably. Granted, I do my due diligence - but as well as the quality of my stones, I'm also quite fondly attached to my hard earned money, so, for me, there's arguments on all sides, and significant money can be saved buying from a drop shipper.

To clarify also - BN's signature diamonds are cut in house in NY, they're held by BN, and they are not 'drop shipped'. BN also carries many AGS diamonds, so if that's your criteria, I'd still recommend them. Having said all that, tho - let me re-state - I've bought stones from WF, BGD, GOG, James Allen's True Hearts and so on and so on. So there's also circumstances which are best addressed by being flexible as to which retailer you use and every jeweler associated with PS has their own specialty.

Also, one issue of which you should be aware is that certain jewelers on this site will not use stones provided by a certain diamond retailer well known on PS. If, like me, you had your heart set on a certain cut of stone, and a certain jeweler to set that stone, make sure in advance that your stone/setter combination is possible. A number of PS jewelers, for example, will not set GOG signature stones, and I was caught out on this and was very disappointed in the long run.

My only advice would be to stay open to ALL options because there are great stones and good deals to be had all over the place. And to go right out on a limb here - in the past I've traded in a number of my BN stones with diamond providers well known on the PS site, and had those stones resold by the retailer to whom I traded them as meeting all their qualifications for 'signature cut' or best cut status - and seen them re-sold as such. So do your homework, look widely, be open to all options, and find the sweet spot between value and quality.

The most beautifully cut stone I've ever owned is a BN Signature stone. It's an F VS2 stone - .95ct. It's too small for me to do much with, but I can't bring myself to sell something so lovely. As a result, it's sat in my house, unset, for 11 years. But at least once a month I pull it out and just marvel at its perfect light return. I took it to an appraiser whose father was a master diamond cutter for many years. He looked at it for a long while and said it was as beautifully cut stone as he'd ever seen. So , as I said, lots of deals to be had all over. As I recall, this particular stone was sourced by BN from a diamond cutter in Sweden. So looking widely can bring wonderful finds.

Think laterally, too. I bought a very badly cut 1.13 K VS2 stone from a local antique jewelry store. It cost me $2800. I had it recut by BGD and ended up with a stunning Brian Gavin signature cut K VS2 1ct stone for $3200.

Bargains all over!
 

Wink

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Wow. I really enjoyed reading Victor’s excellent and insightful reply.

Diamondseeker, I thank you for the vote of confidence. You may be surprised but I’m not even using virtual-lists anymore. My rejection rate (stones I deemed unworthy once they were received by me) kept rising, and the time being wasted was frustrating. After 40 years of selling diamonds I’ve just become more critical and protective of my clients.

Some time ago I decided to sell only Crafted by Infinity diamonds. I don’t call-in anything virtual anymore. Teobdl asked what the advantage would be. For me, as a gemologist, Crafted by Infinity is delivered in a completely closed-channel. They pick the best crystals, craft to their standards and deliver direct to me. For my clients, I can guarantee anything less than perfection has already been rejected. I can tell them exactly what the gemological standards and performance level will be, even when looking at an option that’s in-production in Antwerp – even when working on a diamond they are having Cut To Order when it has not even been crafted yet! This is impossible elsewhere. Another meaningful advantage is my ability to extend lifetime trade-in and buyback options to my clients which no other company matches. These are direct results of my decision to use a closed supply, and would be impossible using E-lists.

Victor implied it. I will say it another way: There are millions of carats of (unkind word deleted) out there. Unless you’re in the trade it’s difficult to describe how many tinted, hazed, ill-cut and flatly incorrectly-graded (insert curse word) exist in those bargain-basement warehouse lists.

There are reputable sellers out there who will fight for their clients, but not all sellers will apply the same standards nor make the same guarantees.

I’m out of that virtual mess and never happier. I realize that might make me a snob. But it’s who I am, and I love my job even more since making the decision.

Thank you, Teobdl, for the opportunity to explain.

Wink
 

mrs-b

Ideal_Rock
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Wink -

C by I is one of the few cuts I consider to be super elite that I don't already own. But they're definitely on my hit list! I've only ever heard and seen great things about them and I very much look forward to owning one in the future! :)

:wavey:
 

Gypsy

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If you use a good vendor, there is nothing wrong with I color. But it's a personal thing.
 

teobdl

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Wink said:
[...]
Some time ago I decided to sell only Crafted by Infinity diamonds. I don’t call-in anything virtual anymore. Teobdl asked what the advantage would be. For me, as a gemologist, Crafted by Infinity is delivered in a completely closed-channel. They pick the best crystals, craft to their standards and deliver direct to me. For my clients, I can guarantee anything less than perfection has already been rejected. I can tell them exactly what the gemological standards and performance level will be, even when looking at an option that’s in-production in Antwerp – even when working on a diamond they are having Cut To Order when it has not even been crafted yet! This is impossible elsewhere. Another meaningful advantage is my ability to extend lifetime trade-in and buyback options to my clients which no other company matches. These are direct results of my decision to use a closed supply, and would be impossible using E-lists.

[...]
There are reputable sellers out there who will fight for their clients, but not all sellers will apply the same standards nor make the same guarantees.
[...]

Thank you, Teobdl, for the opportunity to explain.

Wink
Thanks all for your responses.

I'm sorry but I really just can't let this go. I'm really disappointed that much of the content in the message above is allowed be posted. If it had been totally relevant to questions I had posed (which it was supposed to be addressing) or the original post, great, but unfortunately much of what I quoted above is pure marketing.

The question I posed had to do with the ability of 2 types of companies (purely virtual inventory folks vs in-house offering folks) to evaluate diamonds they are looking at in real life. What I quoted has nothing to do with that evaluation, and it instead repeats market differentiation messaging that's been posted dozens of times over the last several months (years?). I've never fussed about it before, but when it's this blatant and my own post is used as the impetus for it, I have to say something to help maintain the integrity of this site.
 

Wink

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Teobdl, you asked this directly.

what specific advantages would VC and Wink's people have in comparing and evaluating diamonds that are in front of them, compared to "drop ship" sites?
My "specific advantages" are that I know what I’m getting even before I get it. Not just available stock. But even in the future. This relates to your “in front of them” comment because my vetting is done even before that step. Did you see where I can look at a production list and make ironclad guarantees about incoming diamonds weeks in advance? No drop ship site can do that. To me is a unique advantage! Furthermore, the value guarantees I make to clients cannot be offered by "drop ship" sites you asked about. Especially in advance. These things are 100% related to the above and my clients would argue that they are very relevant. To them.

I understand you're angry that I answered with something other than what you thought I would, but I do believe all of this is very relevant. And, although you're upset with me, I still do appreciate the chance for dialogue. Victor and Bryan also touched on very valuable information. I hope some people reading the thread did not know some of these things and find all of them interesting.

Diamondseeker also kindly recommended me above, but she did it for "virtual diamonds.” I felt it necessary to explain that I do not wade into that pond anymore. The above post clearly outlined WHY.

If the moderators believe it's not appropriate I will of course respect that they remove it.
 

msop04

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This is a really insightful thread, so thanks to all who have shared such valuable information. :))

I will also comment that I have a 3.33 (9.8 mm) GIA I color stone, and it is vastly whiter than my old 2.43 (8.7 mm) GIA J. It does have negligible fluorescence (my J did not have any). Like mrs_blop, I cannot detect any tint from the side, much less from face up. I just wanted to chime in and say that I am very impressed with the whiteness of my I stone -- even at almost a carat (and 1+ mm) larger. I will not hesitate to buy another GIA I stone! They are a wonderful value, IMO. :halo:
 

diamondseeker2006

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Thanks for explaining, Wink! I didn't realize you weren't calling in other stones, but I totally understand why! It is time consuming and expensive to call in stones that might be returned due to cut issues, whereas you've probably never had a CBI stone returned except to upgrade. (For the record, I did also recommend you for vendors who carry superior in-house stones right before I said I'd recommend them to evaluate virtual stones. :D )

To the topic.....I think there is no one size fits all. Some of us love superideal cuts and others enjoy finding a well cut GIA XXX that is indistinguishable to them from a superideal cut. I actually have had both and understand the reasoning for both. The key is to get the best cut stones either way even if that means buying an ASET, learning how to use it, and screening stones yourself. Or you can buy from a vendor who specializes in the best cut stones and has done all the work!
 

AdaBeta27

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teobdl|1463370591|4032167 said:
Thanks all for your responses.

I'm sorry but I really just can't let this go. I'm really disappointed that much of the content in the message above is allowed be posted. If it had been totally relevant to questions I had posed (which it was supposed to be addressing) or the original post, great, but unfortunately much of what I quoted above is pure marketing.

The question I posed had to do with the ability of 2 types of companies (purely virtual inventory folks vs in-house offering folks) to evaluate diamonds they are looking at in real life. What I quoted has nothing to do with that evaluation, and it instead repeats market differentiation messaging that's been posted dozens of times over the last several months (years?). I've never fussed about it before, but when it's this blatant and my own post is used as the impetus for it, I have to say something to help maintain the integrity of this site.
----------------------------

Can't let what go? You asked what advantages in-house offers vs. virtual list. Most people who've spent only a little time on here have already figured that out: In-house stones have been vetted and approved. Virtual ones have not. The short generic answer is "Probably the best of what the cutters produced is already immediately picked up by vendors to be the vendors' in-house diamonds, before you even get the change to search the virtual list. And what's left on the virtual list is stones didn't make the first cut for one reason or other." Now, something on the VL may be good enough for you or for any other consumer, for that matter. But how many diamonds do consumers get to actually compare side-by-side with the superideals? The in-house stones have been evaluated by vendors and grading labs who might see thousands of diamonds a year. They have education, instruments, experience, and a jaded world view. They can be hard-nosed and impartial. They can decide what they will or will not put their private label on.

I don't see anything inappropriate with Wink's answer. Wink explained that he no longer deals with virtual list diamonds, essentially because there are too many inferior diamonds on it. He justified why he personally chose CBI branded diamonds as the product line he carries. Since he's only carrying CBI now, exactly what else would you expect him to talk about? Vendors on here can't discuss other vendor's diamonds or their branded product lines.

You have been on here 3 years. If you read a marketing pitch in Wink's response, you just haven't been seeing the big picture. For over a decade now (maybe 15 or 16 years?), Pricescope vendors have focused on bringing top-performing diamonds to their customers. If you think that the caliber of diamonds sold by PS vendors are commonly available anywhere, I invite you to come to the small towns and the pawn shops and the chain store mall jewelers where I live and see the vast quantities of average to below-average diamonds that are being sold.
 
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