Knowledge is Power

[antonia]

Just thought I'd amuse you all and tell you what a jeweller said to me yesterday.

"Some GIA reports do comment on cut" - to my knowledge GIA does not comment on cut!

"Noone asks for Sarin info, this is very technical information, people are generally happy to see, 'excellent proportion', 'excellent symmetry' on a report and that is good enough for them" - well its not good enough for me hahaha!

I regret signing a contract with him now.... I feel bad because I am asking for Sarin information and having an opinion about it!

But I am looking to pay au$11,000 for a diamond, that's not a small purcahse for me, don't I have the right to ask for all the info I need to feel comfortable about the purchase? I originally asked for a GIA report but now have changed my mind and want an AGS Quality Diamond Document because it comments on cut and sarin etc etc and he has made out like I have asked for the moon!!

Anyway.... where's my chocolate bar gone to....

 

[valeria101]

This might be an unusual opinion, but I thing th epor man is right

And so are you

...

Here's why:

 

[antonia]

I suppose I am annoyed because he expects me to make such a huge purchase on minimal information.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 3/25/2004 6:32:59 PM antonia wrote:



One at a time...

'Some GIA reports do comment on cut' - to my knowledge GIA does not comment on cut!
True. You may see comments when some cut characteristics are way unusual 9say, pavilion angles steeper than 40 degrees). Is this the same as AGS's grading ? No. But technically... the jeweler said some truth.


'Noone asks for Sarin info, this is very technical information, people are generally happy to see, 'excellent proportion', 'excellent symmetry' on a report and that is good enough for them'
This may also be right. It is posible that he sees just a few customers askig for these and able to make any sense of a Sarin report. I just hate when someone applies statistics on me

I usually make sure those do not apply

I regret signing a contract with him now....
Can he provide Sarin reports on his stones? Are they well priced? Maybe it can work... I am sorry that pleasant shoping is such a hard find. I suspect jewelers are not, on average (

stats again) happy to talk technicals with you, no matter what the issue is.
If I asked wether the "chrome tourmaline" I was offered was actualy identified as such, I would no longer have where to have my jewelry made! Sometimes I really wander wether lack of knowledge is not teh real bliss

I would be mad too in your place! This is no 'knowledge industry' as PS would let one expect.

Sorry for the long, angry post. I sincerely agree with you.


----------------

 

[dimonbob]

"I regret signing a contract with him now.... I feel bad because I am asking for Sarin information and having an opinion about it!"

The last time I was in Australia, it had a free market the same as the United States.

A contract is supposed to protect you as well as your diamond guy. If he is not giving you the service and information you require, he is not living up to his end of the contract.

You are not bound to this guy. Find someone who will give you the service you want and the diamond you want with all of the papers you require. If you have given him any money, that was a mistake, but you should try to get it all back.

Good Luck!

 

[antonia]

Thanks Ana

your comments have calmed me down a bit... the fiery greek blood gets the better of me sometimes!!

He has supplied me with sarin info - remember my post "Halloway Cut Adviser" and I compared a D 1.02 and an E 1.186? Anyway, the advice I received was that the D was not great and the E was good but to the girdle range could cause light leakage... they were supplied by him. He has quoted me on an "excellent cut" diamond and I want to make sure I get an excellent cut diamond, he told me the D and E were both excellent cut, but I doubt it very much actaully, the E may boarderline it, but I think it would get an AGS very good cut.

I'm paying just a bit over AU$1,000 for an excellent cut and unfortunatly I don't trust his judgement as to whether the stones he is offering are in fact excellent cuts. Yee with little faith I know I know.

 

[antonia]

----------------
If you have given him any money, that was a mistake, but you should try to get it all back.

----------------

Yeah, we were stupid and naive enough to give him au$1,000 deposit...

My sister used him and was very happy. But she isn't as pedantic as me and didn't ask for sarin info etc like I have. She just wanted a diamond with a HRD Very Good Cut and that was good enough for her! Makes me think of Ana's comments

"Sometimes I really wander wether lack of knowledge is not the real bliss"

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Antonia, there's an important point here.


Of course, this person who is treating you this way is a total jerk.


It's true, not many folks ask for a Sarin report- the percentage of people buying H&A diamonds is small- compared to total diamond sales.


If you are one of those people wanting such a stone, then go with one of the companies specializing in such stones- you won't even need to ask for Sarin- they'll be providing them as a matter of course. Superbcert has a great site as does GOG- both have tons of great info on these machines and cuts.




The point- GIA does NOT comment on "quality of cut". I hope they never do- because it is subjective, and GIA strives- we need them to be- totally impartial.


Yes, you've got a polish, and a symmetry grade- but polish and symmetry are only two components of "cut".


I know GIA will be changing their reports to focus more on specific measurements - adding a lot of the info from the Sarin report.


But I do not see them going in AGS's direction- that being: favoring one style of cutting over another.


That is to say: If a 60/60 has some light leakage as compared to a 57/61 H&A- that does not mean it's "worse" or does not "perform" as well ( perform in the eyes of whoever buys it)


.


To get the vanted 0 Cut Grade from AGS requires cutting to the H&A pattern.


Some people LOVE this perfection of symmetry- It's easy to see why, such stones can have great beauty.


I can also see why such stones cost more- everything from loss of yeild from rough- to the higher labor costs and 50 other reasons- it's very difficult to produce such makes.


The Sarin and B-Scope are essential when shopping for H&A




But a lot of people feel that light leekage is a meaningless test. For example, anyone buying an Asshcer Cut is buying a stone which does not "perform" nearly as well as a round. I love Assher Cuts- same goes for Marquise, Pear Shape, Oval, and ALL fancy color diamonds.




A diamond's sparkle comes from the way the light plays around the diamond- sometimes the diamond need to hold on to some of light to sparkle in a way which is different, but equally beautiful as compared to stones cut for optimal light return

 

[aljdewey]

David, I think your discussion is confusing the definition of beauty with the definiteion of "value".




I don't need numbers to tell me if MY EYE thinks a stone is beautiful. I do, however, need some data to know what the make of the stone is so I can ascertain if it is priced competitively. Since make does impact price, that's important data to have.




If my eye happens to like an AGS7, then great......but I want to know that I'm paying the fair market price for that make and not an AGS0, right?




When shopping for a diamond, there are SEVERAL different elements at play. One is beauty; another is perceived value. You keep harping on how people shouldn't define beauty based on "specifications" or based on a limited set of parameters-----because you don't seem to appreciate the difference between perceived beauty and perceived value.




Beauty is indeed subjective and in the eye of the beholder. Value, however, is measured against QUANTIFIABLE elements and how many dollars are being charged for it, and that data needs to be known---not so I can decide if *I* think the stone is beautiful, but if I think the price being asked for it is reasonable.




Oh, and bringing the fancies into the discussion is somewhat of a moot point, because people don't choose those stones for light return or "performance", so that's not their priority.




Bottom line: it's not up to a vendor to determine what data a customer "needs" or doesn't.....it's up to the customer. If a vendor presumed to tell me that I don't "need" the Sarin when I've asked for it, he officially loses the chance at my business. I don't care if the other 95% of customers you sell to don't ask for it/want it? If they all jump off a bridge today, I'm not gonna follow them there either!




Does this make sense?

 

[antonia]

"
The Sarin and B-Scope are essential when shopping for H&A

"

What's a B-Scope, is that the same as the Ideal Scope (the red & black picture showing brilliance / light leakage)?

 

[antonia]

David and Aljdewey... thank you both for your comments.

The stone is in Belgium so I can't look at it to see if I like it or if I think it is beautiful. So I am relying on as many "details" I can get. I emailed my jeweller as follows:

---------------------
As per our recent discussion please action the following:

- Girdle variation is a worry - please email the Ideal Scope Image which will verify whether there is a lot of light leakage through the girdle and additionally it will confirm that it does in fact show H&As.
- Please email a photo of the diamond.
- Please email GIA report so we can look at where the inclusions are positioned and confirm excellent polish & symmetry.
- Please confirm the type of inclusions on the diamond

On the condition that we are happy with all of the above we will proceed and send the diamond to IGI for a Diamond Quality Cut Grade Report to confirm that the cut is excellent.
-----------------

Am I asking for too much or am I being a pain in the neck for asking the above?

Don't want to be a pain, just want a beautiful diamond that will last for ever along with my love

 

[diamondsbylauren]

----------------
On 3/25/2004 10:46:28 PM aljdewey wrote:


David, I think your discussion is confusing the definition of beauty with the definiteion of 'value'.


I don't need numbers to tell me if MY EYE thinks a stone is beautiful. I do, however, need some data to know what the make of the stone is so I can ascertain if it is priced competitively. Since make does impact price, that's important data to have.


If my eye happens to like an AGS7, then great......but I want to know that I'm paying the fair market price for that make and not an AGS0, right?


When shopping for a diamond, there are SEVERAL different elements at play. One is beauty; another is perceived value. You keep harping on how people shouldn't define beauty based on 'specifications' or based on a limited set of parameters-----because you don't seem to appreciate the difference between perceived beauty and perceived value.


Beauty is indeed subjective and in the eye of the beholder. Value, however, is measured against QUANTIFIABLE elements and how many dollars are being charged for it, and that data needs to be known---not so I can decide if *I* think the stone is beautiful, but if I think the price being asked for it is reasonable.


Oh, and bringing the fancies into the discussion is somewhat of a moot point, because people don't choose those stones for light return or 'performance', so that's not their priority.


Bottom line: it's not up to a vendor to determine what data a customer 'needs' or doesn't.....it's up to the customer. If a vendor presumed to tell me that I don't 'need' the Sarin when I've asked for it, he officially loses the chance at my business. I don't care if the other 95% of customers you sell to don't ask for it/want it? If they all jump off a bridge today, I'm not gonna follow them there either!


Does this make sense?
----------------

We should probably define the conversation- All we are talking about is round brilliant cut diamonds. And not simply RBC- we're talking specifically about RBC diamonds cut to H&A proportions.
I mentioned that I understand why they cost more, but to the point of value specifically:
A H&A diamond costs between 5-20% more than a diamond that has a small bit of "light leakage" or a stone cut to more classic 60/60 proportions.
Clearly we agree here- a H&A stone is going to bring a higher price on the market than an AGS1.
You're never going to see an AGS7 ( cut grade 7) who would submit such a stone to AGS?
But there are stones which AGS cut grades 1 that are awesome.

We also agree that if someone is looking an H&A the dealer should provide the all info the consumer needs and requests to choose such a stone- or refer them to someone who will.
No one likes being told by some pushy salesman what they need.



If you showed 100 people a 60/60 VG/VG vs a great H&A stone, I believe that many people would choose H&A- leaving plenty of others that would actually prefer the 60/60 based on beauty.
I think it's important to put that part in perspective. We're talking about a fraction of the market- for everyone NOT looking for a H&A, the rules are somewhat different.

I'm sorry if you felt I was harping on about this.

I don't believe only folks looking for fancy shapes or colors are inteterested in getting the best balance between beauty and value.
Plenty of folks buy non H&A round diamonds- and they too, want a great cut.
Since we've agreed that H&A elevates a stones price, and that it is subjective as to which stone is more beautiful, I hate to lead folks to believe thier 60/60 good/good is not a great stone- many 60/60 good good's are awesome stones.


Antonia:
It may very well be that the dealer you're working with won't be able to answer your questions properly- and you have every right to ask them, and expect an answer. I really hope it does not get nasty over the $1000- you dserve a refund if you ask- no question about that.
I really think it's great that you know exactly what you want. I'm sure you'll end up with an awesome rock.

The people that specialize in selling such stones are prepared to answer the specific questions.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 3/25/2004 6:51:55 PM antonia wrote:



I'm paying just a bit over AU$1,000 for an excellent cut and unfortunatly I don't trust his judgement as to whether the stones he is offering are in fact excellent cuts. Yee with little faith I know I know.

----------------

So... what was an 'execelent' cut suposed to be ? A top H&A stones? The price seems in line with some demanding standards. The one site that posts data on diamonds to death is Good Old Gold. You get a GB of data for a bit of a diamond with these guys

And there is little left to ask for besides it (ever heard of the Isee2 project and Diamcalc?...). There must be some end to testing these poor stones.

And the explanation about Bscope is there as well. Besides, GOG might consider giving away a diploma for those who actually took the time to go through thair tutorial: it must be just as good as GIA's courses, to put it mildely

From what you asked the seller to provide, the actual picture of the stone might be the least informative and the hardest to get right. If the Iscope pic comes ok and he could provide a view of those harts and arrows (the Iscope shows the stone only top up), this is about it - for me, at least.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 3/26/2004 1:41:19 AM diamondsbylauren wrote:


But there are stones which AGS cut grades 1 that are awesome.----------------

Of course, David, and no one is suggesting that "only" AGS0 stones are "beautiful". And in fact, even the HCA doesn't imply that. Here's an example of an AGS1 stone that scores a 1.0 on the HCA!

http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=GIA-12243852

Here's another AGS1 that scores under 2.0 on the HCA:

http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=GIA-12243853

.....and another:

http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=GIA-13013692

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Since it's turned into another HCA discussion:


Did you realize that all the people who cut those AGS1 diamonds have used doorknobs in their life? That fact has as much relavance as the HCA score ( hehehe)

 

[aljdewey]

Since it's turned into another HCA discussion:

Did you realize that all the people who cut those AGS1 diamonds have used doorknobs in their life? That fact has as much relavance as the HCA score ( hehehe)

----------------

Clearly, your ability to have a rationed discussion on this has waned.

I'd suspect it's because you've run out of validly arguable points, so let's just table it, shall we? I would truly hate to alter the reality of those in "the earth is flat" camp.

Fine.....the earth is flat. Sometimes, it's just not worth the effort. (Just know I don't truly believe the earth is flat......I have just accepted that marble minds are not penetrable.)

 

[antonia]

ANYWAY GUYS....

My jeweller said that the guy in Belgium holding the stone cannot send me an Idealscope image because he doesnt know what one is!!!! What do you think if that?!!!

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Antonia- It just sounds like they will not be able to serve you according to your wishes. Your requests are perfectly reasonable for someone looking for a H&A stone- if they can't fulfill them they owe you a refund.




aljdewey- I am always ready to have a rational conversation. I have made my feelings quite clear- I don't feel the HCA is of any use to consumers.


Antonia is really a perfect example why.


She wants exactly what she wants- that's the best type of customer- IF- a seller can provide the proper info on the stone. Trying to sidestep the issue by telling Antonia she doesn't need a B-scope, or Ideal Scope imagrs is just plain rude.




This is relevant to the discussion of the HCA because in ANY case- Antonia is not going to get the proper info- or treatent- till she's able to work with a dedicated H&A seller.


Even if she eliminates 1000 stones using a flawed model ( HCA)


Am I missing any uses?

 

[pqcollectibles]

----------------
On 3/26/2004 3:22:21 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:


Since it's turned into another HCA discussion:

Did you realize that all the people who cut those AGS1 diamonds have used doorknobs in their life? That fact has as much relavance as the HCA score ( hehehe)
----------------

Well, there are doorknobs and there are doorknobs. There plain, run of the mill, everyday type doorknobs. There better quality and lower quality plain doorknobs. Then there are fancier doorknobs. There are higher quality and lower quality fancier doorknobs. Then, you got yer full out ornate, pertified doorknobs that look more like decoration than something to open a door with. There are lower quality and higher quality ornate doorknobs.

There's a market for each type of door knob. Some buyers go and grab the cheapest thing on the shelf. Some want a better quality plain door knob. Some folks wants a fancier door knob but won't/can't pay the price for better quality. Some folks will buy the better quality, fancier doorknob. Then there are decorators who want character on their door. There are some who will buy the lower quality ornate doorknob.

For some buyers, only THE best, ornate doorknob will do. They study different looks. Research different manufacturers, production methods, materials used, use/life testing data, etc.

Now, translate that into buying diamonds.

Some people walk into Zales, plunk down the bucks, and walk out happy campers. Some people can see a difference and buy the best they can within their budget, but don't learn about diamonds. There are buyers who spend time to become familiar with information on diamonds, check pricing, compare levels of color/clarity/cut, and determine what will work best for them within their budget. The folks that spend time learning know there is a relationship between the crown/pavillion angles combination and what they see with their eye. Those buyers use DATA and TOOLS to SCREEN possible candidates prior to the final selection process.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Dear A,
Tell your dealer he has seen ideal-scopes because he would walk though the main arcade selling diamond cutting equipment every day and past Rubin and Son's corner and they are just too bright pink not to every be noticed.
He can buy one and easily photograph the stone roughly through it with any digital camera.

David you never responed to my PM about the stone that can not exist? Is this more flat earth technology? And what do you think about the new GIA cut certs?

 

[antonia]

Cut Nut,

That is so funny! Thanks and I certainly will let him the know location in Belgium haha! I wont give up now until I get that IdealScope Image!!!

Thanks heaps.

p.s. As dumb as this sounds, I didn't know you sold diamonds!! Just checked out the Precious Metals website today.. I found the HCA on another website www.diamonds-diamonds or something like that, its saved on my work PC.. Anyway, I just called your office to get an idea of $$ but I first want to see what happens with this guy before I get carried away, Ive left a $1,000 deposit with him and signed a contract... I know Im an idiot!!

 

[pqcollectibles]

You are not an idiot, Antonia. You made that agreement BPS. Before Price Scope. Now you are learning.

 

[antonia]

Thanks... you are right I am still learning.

But the process I have been going through is as follows:

I ask for the Sarin details
I punch them into the HCA - if it doesn't score under 2 for an excellent cut I don't ask any more questions and tell my jeweller I'm not interested, find another stone
The E SI1 Im interested in rated 1.3 so then I have
asked for all of the details mentioned further up this post.

So the HCA has and does help me. It just doesn't tell me everything.

Thanks everyone you have been wonderful.