just one of those days

[Smurfysmiles]

so I was talking to my best friend last night who has been with her boyfriend about a year. She asked if I would be upset if she got engaged before me. I told her I wouldn''t be upset but I would be jealous for awhile that she got something I''ve been waiting for a bit longer and honestly (I think) wanting a bit more. I told her I would need time alone to get over it and then I would be fine. Then I told her I really didn''t think she was ready to get engaged. Her boyfriend doesn''t bother to get to know her friends and it seems like she is very secretive about him. Also, as far as I know they haven''t even had their first fight yet (which I think tells a lot about how well a relationship will work). She asked why I wasn''t engaged and I said we are not financially stable enough to consider it right now. Her response was that she was financially well off as is her boyfriend so why should it be a problem. Then I proceeded to tell her that''s not all there is to consider. When I tried to explain my point of view she just got upset. Does anyone have any advice?

 

[~*Alexis*~]

It sounds like your friend is expecting something. It also seems like her head is stuck in the clouds and she is more concerned with getting a big rock rather than the engagement itself.

Sounds like this friend has a lot of growing up to do and she has no idea what marriage is really all about. If she is unwilling to listen to anothers point of view without throwing a hissy fit than she is not ready for marriage, mainly because marriage is about compromise not about getting "your" way all the time.

There are times when you need to learn to bite your tounge and then there are times in marriage that you speak your mind, but respectfully.

She has a one track mind and sooner rather than later, she will get the true meaning of marriage, as well as friendship.

 

[Mediterranean]

Awww, Smurfy.....I''m sorry she reacted like that to the conversation!

To me, it sounds like she misunderstood you when you told her that the reason you and Mr. Smurfy aren''t engaged yet was because you guys are getting your finances in order first, she probably interpreted that statement to mean that if a couple is OK financially, then they''re 100% READY for marriage.


...Of course that''s not what you meant at all, and when you tried to point out some other aspects of healthy relationships, she probably closed her brain down and started thinking "Smurfy''s just jealous..." Which isn''t really true. You''re not JUST jealous....the slight envy you told her about is only one of a whole range of emotions, and mostly you sound concerned for her and you sound like a true friend; a friend who actually has the guts to say the things that might be hard to hear, but which also happen to be very honest, and happen to be extremely good points.

Emotions run high when you talk about deeply personal subjects. If you get a chance to clear the air tell her that of COURSE you''d be thrilled for her, but you''d be more thrilled if you knew her guy a little better, and that what you said was only said out of honest concern for her.

 

[Smurfysmiles]

thanks alexis. i''m meeting up with her tonight so we''ll see how that goes. throw me some magic friendship fairy dust

 

[Smurfysmiles]

thanks med that made me feel a lot better sometimes its harder to be honest than to say what people want to hear

 

[TravelingGal]

Well...why wouldn''t your friend be upset? You:

1) said you''d be jealous and said you''d need alone time
2) said essentially you "deserve" to get engaged before she does because you waited longer and wanted it more
3) said she''s not ready to be engaged yet.

Wasn''t exactly a love fest.

I won''t make any judgments on whether you are right about your friend''s relationship or not. But I will say you are placing your idea of what is a healthy relationship on her. Like fighting. For those of us who fight with our mates, we automatically assume that those who don''t fight are in some kind of weird state of denial or really don''t *know* their partners, blah blah blah and how could it be a healthy relationship? Well, my brother and his wife do not fight. They communicate very well and just manage to solve issues without arguments. TGuy and I definitely do fight. Both my brother and I have healthy, happy marriages. Different strokes for different folks.

Maybe you should be more gracious with your friend. She did ask how you''d feel if she got engaged first so giving her the benefit of the doubt I could say that she is being cognizant of your feelings (and hopefully not trying to start something.)

 

[Smurfysmiles]

well i think tgal, the fact that she asked me how i was going to react was so she could prepare herself if this actually was how it happened. she knew i wouldn''t lie to her and i know she''s not mad at me because i was honest. i think maybe she will just be upset because i don''t approve of the guy she is dating, especially not for getting married to.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/23/2008 5:11:02 PM
Author: Smurfysmiles
well i think tgal, the fact that she asked me how i was going to react was so she could prepare herself if this actually was how it happened. she knew i wouldn''t lie to her and i know she''s not mad at me because i was honest. i think maybe she will just be upset because i don''t approve of the guy she is dating, especially not for getting married to.

Whether or not you approve, I find that 95% of people are gonna do what they are gonna do anyway. So there''s a fine line here that you are balancing on.

I don''t think your honest reaction was so bad. I just think the general gist of the conversation seemed pretty negative on your end. I don''t doubt that you have genuine concern and that it probably is well founded. However I do agree with mediterranean...maybe seem a bit HAPPY for her and then tempering your concerns might make for easier reception on her end.

 

[Smurfysmiles]

oh i''ve been happy for her for the last year while i bit my tongue about the kind of guy he is. we have a group of 4 of us and me and the other 2 girls all have the same concerns about him. now that she has brought up marriage i had to tell her my opinion. she is the kind of girl who will listen to what i have to say and then do what she wants to do but i do know she values all of our opinions.

 

[Independent Gal]

Hmmm. Is there something actually worrying about this guy? Like is he mean to her or abusive? Or horribly irresponsible? Reckless? Or something that would put your friend in actual danger or make her likely to divorce or be unhappy?

Couples do have disagreements in different ways, as T'Gal says. I read a book about this that says that happy couples come in several forms: yellers, counseling-jargon-y discussers (a la calmly saying "When you do X, I feel like Y."), and quiet conflict avoider / resolvers. The bottom line was that so long as any disagreement involves 3 stages: 1 - each expresses their point of view 2 - each expresses understanding of the other's point of view 3- some kind of concrete game plan is reached, then a marriage can be a happy one, no matter at what temperature of temper or volume it's conducted. There are very happy quiet conflict avoiders out there!

I find it hard to relate to the jealousy thing and the wanting some along time thing if she gets engaged before you because I don't think I know anyone outside of PS who would feel like that - like it's a race or a competition or something you 'deserve' for putting in time - so I won't comment on that part. But the only time I would tell a friend I doubted her choice was if I thought she was being dangerously stupid. Him being shy or avoiding her friends is something you may not like about him, but it's not a reason for her not to marry him.

 

[Smurfysmiles]

he drinks, a LOT
that is what worries me
and she may not realize it but he treats her like a maid asking her to make him food all the time and clean and shit, he gives off the vibe that he walks all over her
maybe she likes that, i dont know?

 

[Smurfysmiles]

somehow i get the feeling this post was not taken the way i thought it would, im not posting a topic again for awhile bc i obviously dont know how to put thoughts into words
over and out

 

[bee*]

I don''t know, I think that people answered to your post with honest advice. Just because you don''t agree with it doesn''t mean you shouldn''t post again. I actually agreed quite a bit with TGal-if my friend told me that they would need to be by themselves after I got engaged I would be quite upset. Two of my best friends got engaged before D and I got engaged even though they were dating for less time. Sure I was very envious, but I was thrilled for them and celebrated for days with them. If your friend''s boyfriend drinks a lot and you can be honest with her, ask her about it. She mightn''t think that she''s been used by him and things can look a lot different on the outside then things are inside the relationship. I think that if she asked you how you felt about her getting engaged and these were the issues why you wouldn''t feel good, then I would have told her these reasons and just say that you were worried for her.

 

[hisdiamondgirl]

Date: 2/23/2008 7:31:21 PM
Author: bee*
I don''t know, I think that people answered to your post with honest advice. Just because you don''t agree with it doesn''t mean you shouldn''t post again. I actually agreed quite a bit with TGal-if my friend told me that they would need to be by themselves after I got engaged I would be quite upset. Two of my best friends got engaged before D and I got engaged even though they were dating for less time. Sure I was very envious, but I was thrilled for them and celebrated for days with them. If your friend''s boyfriend drinks a lot and you can be honest with her, ask her about it. She mightn''t think that she''s been used by him and things can look a lot different on the outside then things are inside the relationship. I think that if she asked you how you felt about her getting engaged and these were the issues why you wouldn''t feel good, then I would have told her these reasons and just say that you were worried for her.

I agree with bee* smurfy! I don''t think you should just leave! I am one big proponent of honesty but sometimes some truths hurt a little more than they do good. I understand that you are saying that she wasn''t upset when you told her you would be jealous and need some alone time, but I still think that this may have hurt her a little more than you think and maybe clouded her perception of everything else you were trying to tell her! Like Med said, she could just be thinking: "Whatever, smurfy''s just jealous!" It seems like you have a pretty good relationship with this friend so why not just find a way of starting this convo again and ask her about her BF''s drinking? Maybe you could preface it by making it clear that you are genuinely concerned for her and that your slight feelings of jealousy are your own personal feelings, that have no bearing on your relationship with her, and that are yours to deal with!

Good luck with this, I know how hard it can be getting through to someone who doesn''t want to hear it! And please, come back!

 

[Independent Gal]

Hmmm. Drinking a lot (IF it seems like alcoholism to you) and bossing her around are good reasons to be concerned. I guess it''s a question of timing. It would be hard for her to hear you if your concern came out just after you had said "I would be so jealous if you got engaged that, so far from being happy with you, I couldn''t look at you or talk to you for a while." She would probably just think, as hdg said above, that your concern was actually ''just'' jealousy, when it sounds like it''s not.

Have you talked to her about this before?

 

[Smurfysmiles]

im going to rephrase my post

this wasnt supposed to be about my being jealous a bit or needing time alone
this was supposed to be about trying to explain to her that there is more you need to consider before getting married than finances.

did nobody pick that up?

of course i would be happy for her but i would also spend a day away (and i wouldnt tell her why) just having a day to myself to gather my thoughts so i dont say anything i wouldnt want to. i know a lot of you would be this way because you have said it yourselves in the posts concerning lapping. a lot of you have gotten upset because a stranger lapped you. this is my best friend who is dating a total douchebag and yes i would be upset about that. i wouldnt be jealous as much as sad that i was still waiting. and i would be upset about her choice.

anybody getting what i am trying to say????

probably not.

 

[bee*]

Well if you''d read what I posted previously, I said that you should have a talk with her about her boyfriends drinking and how he treats her. There is not much else you can do-if she wants to marry him, she will, unfortunately we have to make our own mistakes. People have been trying to help you out.

 

[hisdiamondgirl]

Date: 2/23/2008 8:11:31 PM
Author: Smurfysmiles
im going to rephrase my post


this wasnt supposed to be about my being jealous a bit or needing time alone

this was supposed to be about trying to explain to her that there is more you need to consider before getting married than finances.


did nobody pick that up?


of course i would be happy for her but i would also spend a day away (and i wouldnt tell her why) just having a day to myself to gather my thoughts so i dont say anything i wouldnt want to. i know a lot of you would be this way because you have said it yourselves in the posts concerning lapping. a lot of you have gotten upset because a stranger lapped you. this is my best friend who is dating a total douchebag and yes i would be upset about that. i wouldnt be jealous as much as sad that i was still waiting. and i would be upset about her choice.


anybody getting what i am trying to say????


probably not.

I think we all understood what this post was supposed to be about smurfy!
All we are saying is that it is understandable that it was hard to get through to her after you told her that you would be jealous and would need some time on your own to get over it, as we would have been taken aback if one of our best friends had said that to us. While some of us may be a little upset about getting "lapped" I'm not sure many of us, or at least I wouldn't tell the person who is getting engaged and with whom I'm supposed to be celebrating as it may cause hurt, and then all we have is two hurt/upset people!!!

We understand that you are genuinely concerned about her but that may not have gone through to her given the timing of your expression of concern...is all!

ETA: Like bee* said, we are really just trying to help you with this situation and really hope that it works out!

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Personally, I think you need to take a look at the conversation, and really think about what you said...if she is truthfully your friend, then you should be happy for her and the progress of her relationship, regardless of where you are in your life and how you view the situation. If she is ready to get married and has met a man she really loves, then its simply a time for celebration--your jealousy and your issue with her engagement and your issue with your own personal lack-there- of is just that...your issue.

For you to say that you want marriage more than her is your opinion, not fact.

To be jealous of her is a character flaw and makes me think you''re more frenemies than true-blue friends...

If she making enough money as is he to support a life together, then good for them...

I think it was sensitive of her to address the issue, and your reaction was childish and immature...it isn''t your place as her friend to tell her she shouldn''t get married. How would you feel if she said that to you? It is just a hurtful sentiment, and one you should kept to yourself.

Maybe she and her BF don''t fight. My husband and I rarely (if ever) argue...we have minor disagreements, but our relationship is such that we have a great understanding of each other and ergo can avoid certain pit falls which can lead to fights...Maybe they are lovers not fighters...

And if her future fiance doesn''t make an effort to meet her friends, there is probably a reason behind that. Is he shy? Uncomfortable in large groups? There is something she loves about him...and while you might not exactly see or understand what that is...it obviously is there. I had a friend whose boyfriend wasn''t very open to meeting her friends...we all found that questionable...and in the end, he wasn''t the best guy ever...but, when she loved him enough to marry him--we were happy for her, because SHE was our priority NOT him.

I think you need to apologize to your friend prompty. I think you need to work on getting yourself into a good place where marriage can be an option for you...and let your friend celebrate her love and happiness any which way she pleases, and continue to support her in whichever road she goes.

 

[Independent Gal]

Yup, I also think we pretty much understood your initial post. But if what you wanted was for everyone to say 'Silly friend! Of course there's more to marriage than finances!' well, then, yeah, there is more. But the rest of your post was hard to ignore.

After your more recent post, it seems to me that a reason your friend's FFI may not want to spend time with you gals is that you all hate him. Even if you're SUPER nice to him, he may be able to 'smell' it, if you know what I mean. It's no fun spending time with people who don't like you. Or, in your words, think you're a 'douchebag'. That might also be why your friend is being secretive about him. She may not want to deal with him and her gal-pals at the same time.

I do think that true-blue friends have to raise serious concerns about a potentially disastrous marriage with their friends. But they have to go about it the right way, VERY carefully, because otherwise, the friend will be resentful and won't hear you. And if one of my friends actually SAID to me 'I would need alone time if you got engaged before me,' I would be deeply hurt, I would think she was selfish and childish, and it would put a strain on our friendship.

Does that mean that no good friend ever has selfish or childish feelings? No! Of course everyone has those feelings. Every single person - to a greater or lesser extent. But being grown-up is about not acting on those feelings, recognizing that they are selfish and childish and putting them aside. Like what Bee said. She may have felt sad about being 'lapped', but she knew that a grown-up response was to keep that feeling in a secret place, or better yet, talk herself out of it, and be joyful for her friends.

That's what we're hoping you hear from us.

That's all any of us have been trying to say.

 

[Independent Gal]

By the way, we''re not trying to beat you up here. We''re trying to help you see the other points of view.

That''s another thing, other than financial stability, that you need to be ready for marriage.

 

[Smurfysmiles]

1. he has only hung out with each of us once, ONCE!!! in a year''s time! everything we know about him comes directly from her. therefor he does not want to not hang out with us because he thinks we hate him, he doesn''t even know us!

2. he is not shy. this is not the reason he will not hang out with us either. he makes her go out or do things with his friends everytime they want to go out with friends. she''ll suggest it and he''ll turn it down without even a second thought.

3.i have thought about this from her point of view and if it was me i would want to know the reason why she was feeling a little down in the dumps. i wouldn''t want her to lie to me.

4.the reason i told her what i did was because i wanted her to understand that i would be happy for her when it eventually happened but that i have my own issues to work out too and i wanted her to know why i would be withdrawing a bit. i would rather tell her this now than when it actually happened. knowing her, she will give me my space to sit around and eat ice cream and watch sappy movies until i was ready to get together to celebrate.

and speaking of consideration...
itallian, that was possibly the bitchiest (pardon the french) post i have ever heard on her. practice what you preach sister.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/23/2008 8:11:31 PM
Author: Smurfysmiles
im going to rephrase my post

this wasnt supposed to be about my being jealous a bit or needing time alone
this was supposed to be about trying to explain to her that there is more you need to consider before getting married than finances.

did nobody pick that up?

of course i would be happy for her but i would also spend a day away (and i wouldnt tell her why) just having a day to myself to gather my thoughts so i dont say anything i wouldnt want to. i know a lot of you would be this way because you have said it yourselves in the posts concerning lapping. a lot of you have gotten upset because a stranger lapped you. this is my best friend who is dating a total douchebag and yes i would be upset about that. i wouldnt be jealous as much as sad that i was still waiting. and i would be upset about her choice.

anybody getting what i am trying to say????

probably not.

It seems you did not get what we are trying to say.

It''s very hard to have someone try to understand your explanations to her that there is more one needs to consider before getting married than finances IF
You prefaced the conversation that you would be jealous and needed time alone.

We TRIED to give you advice on how to go about telling her how you feel...but you got defensive.

And if this is your attitude from just a simple Internet posting, I''m not surprised that your friend got upset. It seems you just want us to agree that your friend is not ready to get married. Perhaps YOU are not ready to have a real and sincere heart to heart with your friend.

And I agree with IG that your friend''s bf may "smell" how much you disklike him. Who would want to spend time with people who dislike him?

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/23/2008 9:36:07 PM
Author: Smurfysmiles
1. he has only hung out with each of us once, ONCE!!! in a year's time! everything we know about him comes directly from her. therefor he does not want to not hang out with us because he thinks we hate him, he doesn't even know us!

2. he is not shy. this is not the reason he will not hang out with us either. he makes her go out or do things with his friends everytime they want to go out with friends. she'll suggest it and he'll turn it down without even a second thought.

3.i have thought about this from her point of view and if it was me i would want to know the reason why she was feeling a little down in the dumps. i wouldn't want her to lie to me.

4.the reason i told her what i did was because i wanted her to understand that i would be happy for her when it eventually happened but that i have my own issues to work out too and i wanted her to know why i would be withdrawing a bit. i would rather tell her this now than when it actually happened. knowing her, she will give me my space to sit around and eat ice cream and watch sappy movies until i was ready to get together to celebrate.

and speaking of consideration...
itallian, that was possibly the bitchiest (pardon the french) post i have ever heard on her. practice what you preach sister.

You have not thought about it from HER point of view. You have thought about it from YOUR point of view.

That old adage "treat people how you would like to be treated" is a bit off the mark, IMO. I really think it should be "Treat people how THEY would like to be treated." Your friend may not think the same way as you.

Smurfy, with all due respect, you do not handle opposing viewpoints well.

 

[Smurfysmiles]

yeah i''m done with pricescope.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/23/2008 9:49:38 PM
Author: Smurfysmiles
yeah i''m done with pricescope.

That''s really too bad, but it doesn''t surprise me. Good luck.

 

[moderatelypoorstudent]

Hi Smurfy, you are probably long gone by now but I just wanted to say I'm sorry you're having a tough time dealing with a friend.

Of course, there is much more to getting married than just money, we've all seen celebrities divorce and we all know they have oodles of money. Money does not a marriage make, although of course, money is also a large issue in times of stress in a marriage too. Couples fight often about finances after they are married since there is a lot of issues that deal with money: kids, college funds, retirement accounts, how you want to invest, money market vs mutual fund vs real estate yadda yadda...

I understand that getting engaged/lapped is a sensitive issue, I myself recently felt strong pangs of envy when someone I knew got engaged and he totally surprised her, whereas my SO has told me his own deadline and I feel like it just won't be a surprise because I know what he's getting me too. Edited to add: after a little while, I still valued that my SO wants to keep me in the loop and I was happy for my friend.

I think most of the posters who have responded are trying to explain to you why it was that your friend got upset with you, not trying to attack you for bringing up what you see as valid concerns with this man. Drinking a large amount and being self centered are two very important issues in a relationship! And both of these issues should come far before how well off they are financially.

I think what the posters were trying to say was: if you really want to get through to her, you may have to separate these two conversations because they are two different topics. 1. how you feel about being lapped and 2. her relationship with her boyfriend.

Wow, all my post lines start with I... anyway, the point is: you have your right to feel jealous or a little sad for being lapped, and you have a right to be concerned for your friend. As long as you can separate these two issues in your mind and when you speak to her, it may work out better. However, a lot of people only take advice they want to hear, so don't be offended if she still takes your comments and tosses them out the window. It's human nature. Actually, a good guy friend of my SO is getting married to this womam, who we all think is an undiagnosed bipolar woman (being bipolar isn't bad, but going without any sort of treatment or evaluation can be) and who also seems like she's just with him for his money. Two of his close friends approached him about it, and in the end, he just doesn't talk to them anymore. So I guess... just be careful and good luck!

Good luck smurfy.

 

[galeteia]

Smurfy, I read your post earlier before anyone had responded to it, and the first thing I thought of is how your friend would perceive your conversation.

Based on what you said in the OP it seemed to me to start with:

"If you get engaged first, I'm going to be irrational and upset by it, FYI."

And then finish with:

"You aren't ready to get engaged yet, but I am not biased."

If I was your friend, that would have me raising my eyebrows at the logical subtext: that I'm not ready because you aren't engaged before I am.

Now that you've elaborated that you feel that this guy is a bit of a deadbeat and that's why you think it's a bad choice, it makes sense that you'd caution her against engagement, but by preemptively stating that you were going to be unreasonable about the situation may have shot your credibility with her on the subject.

And yes, it looks like people did pick up on the fact that you really don't think she should be engaged irrespective of who gets engaged first, but the order you made your statements clouded the issue.

I understand that this is an emotionally distressing situation both because of your envy and perhaps guilt over being resentful toward a friend, and because you think someone you care about is about to make a big mistake. The feeling that she has shut you out because of the former and isn't willing to listen about the latter would it all the worse, I'd guess. You have my sympathy for that. Try not to take her life choices personally, even if it's hard to watch a friend do a full-speed faceplant.

Edited to add: Apparently you left while I was typing.

 

[Smurfysmiles]

after reading moderatelypoorstudents reply i have decided to stick around for a bit, although i will not be op for awhile after this. i personally think a lot of the posters on here need to learn to reply with sensitivity as well as honestness because if i felt like crap after talking to my friend i certainly didnt feel any better after reading most of those responses.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/23/2008 10:22:57 PM
Author: Smurfysmiles
after reading moderatelypoorstudents reply i have decided to stick around for a bit, although i will not be op for awhile after this. i personally think a lot of the posters on here need to learn to reply with sensitivity as well as honestness because if i felt like crap after talking to my friend i certainly didnt feel any better after reading most of those responses.

LOL, didn't think you'd be going anywhere for long...

Smurfysmiles, did you ever think your friend may have felt like crap after talking to you?

Look, I know you hate being lapped, not many love it. That's normal. I also know this has not been a great year for you with your mom being sick. Still, you're hanging in there. I truly don't believe people were trying to be insensitive. When I read all these posts, it seems like they were trying to answer your initial question, which is how to go about explaining how one can be ready for marriage.

WE do not know your friend's SO. YOU do. We can only take your word that he is not a good guy. That's a tough position to be in when your best friend's SO is actually BAD for her. You have every right to be concerned, but moderatelypoorstudent is correct. That should be a SEPARATE conversation from telling her how you feel about being lapped. Otherwise it will cloud your intentions, which I am sure are GOOD.

I really hope you can see that in these responses. I also don't think Italian's post was all that bitchy. It was frank and it was her opinion. And it had some good advice later in her post. But it's hard to take advice when it's prefaced with some blunt opinions, isn't it? Think about it.

And let me say, I am sorry you are feeling crappy.